Trouble Ahead at Virgin West Coast?

[Pollo]

New round of pay talks on Friday, it'll be sorted before a single shift is left uncovered.

Talks adjourned until 28 July which is 4 days into the RDW ban.

 

[HH]

A lot of RDW is inbuilt into the Rosters, which are often done by staff reps because management have lost the expertise (Ops management is generally pretty damn poor).

I was looking at a roster today with a copy of the "blue book" and it was easy to see that if the staff took even 75% of the maximum leave they were allowed then there weren't enough spares to cover, despite there actually being enough if the maximum were set at a sensible level.

Also I've had senior Ops managers tell me that they like to leave some RDW, because some drivers do want it, and if they took it all out then these drivers would be unhappy.

 

[carriageline]

I am now placing my tin hat on my head and will say that if you choose to work in an industry that provides a seven day service, then you have to accept that you will need to work weekends from time to time. It's part of the job. That doesn't mean people work any more hours than their agreed ones, and those weekend shifts should be rostered fairly, just as earlies and lates are.



My guess it it suits a lot of people to see the current system continuing because it enhances their salary. That's fine, but it does mean a much higher chance that passengers will be inconvenienced when TOCs who rely on it to keep things going, suddenly find their staff withdrawing it over some industrial dispute.



One way to begin this reform would be for all new entrants to the rail industry to be employed on the basis that they should expect to be rostered across seven days.

Simply, I don't think you know what your talking about.


My contract says I must work weekends, bank holidays etc as required. If I'm rostered Christmas Day, then I have to work it, I have no choice. I may be lucky and someone else might want to do it, but tough luck.

I completely accept that I will work weekends and nights. On my base roster, it says I work weekends, and nights. I am committed to working them. I get paid a premium for Sunday's, and nights, but I HAVE to work them (well, unless I can find someone to cover them)

Overtime is required mainly because of vacancies and sickness. Factor in people being released for training, medicals, assessments etc, that also needs to be covered unless you factor it into a roster. Network Rail and TOCs need to address the vacancies IMO, nothing more.

 

[A-driver]

I stand to be corrected but I think the railways must be one of the last 24/7 industries that need to use overtime and RDW to provide the service required.



I work in an industry that is 24/7 and the concept of extra money for weekends disappeared years ago. Everyone, while working a standard week, expects that to include weekends and early/late shifts as part of the deal. The only extra payment now made is for working overnight, and that's to reflect the well known health issues that can bring.



I am now placing my tin hat on my head and will say that if you choose to work in an industry that provides a seven day service, then you have to accept that you will need to work weekends from time to time. It's part of the job. That doesn't mean people work any more hours than their agreed ones, and those weekend shifts should be rostered fairly, just as earlies and lates are.



My guess it it suits a lot of people to see the current system continuing because it enhances their salary. That's fine, but it does mean a much higher chance that passengers will be inconvenienced when TOCs who rely on it to keep things going, suddenly find their staff withdrawing it over some industrial dispute.



One way to begin this reform would be for all new entrants to the rail industry to be employed on the basis that they should expect to be rostered across seven days.

Well your entire post is pretty much wrong I'm afraid. You have clearly. To fully understood any info you have read as no complete days are staffed purely on voluntary overtime. Rail staff including drivers are rostered work mon-sun 24/7. The issue is that many companies don't employ enough so rely on existing staff coming in to work on days off to cover any shortage.

Some companies havnt fully brought Sunday's in to the working week for the driving grade, mainly again as it is a cheaper way of working as it requires less staff. Rather than covering 7days a week they only need staff for 6 and use the existing staff to work the extra day. Most TOCs count this as enforced overtime and so drivers have to arrange cover themselves if they don't want to work it or book annual leave instead. A few companies still allow drivers to give a certain amount of notice (a week or 2) if they are not able to work a rostered Sunday. However Sunday's cause less problems regarding staff rostering than mon-sat simply because you are paid extra to work it. At my TOC there are regularly uncovered jobs mon-sat but very rare to find Sunday sheets with multiple uncovered turns.

So, in short, your post has completely missed the facts of the matter.

 

[SPADTrap]

virgin seem like the sort who would give in to most demands to ensure their reputation isn't tarnished. And even if it did come to strike action they'd wheel out beardy branson and make everyone in a union out to be some kind of greedy criminal.

It almost sounds as if you don't like Virgin, MrPIC :razz:

 

[455driver]

With Sundays outside the working week and so paid as overtime they are not pensionable (saving the company money) and means they need less Staff (again saving money), because there are fewer staff there are less drivers to manage (saving money as you might only need 4 managers instead of 5) and will have correspondingly less training/refreshing/safety/etc days to factor in as well.

So the company actually saves money by paying the drivers extra to work Sundays as overtime than if they were in the working week.

 

[HH]

With Sundays outside the working week and so paid as overtime they are not pensionable (saving the company money) and means they need less Staff (again saving money), because there are fewer staff there are less drivers to manage (saving money as you might only need 4 managers instead of 5) and will have correspondingly less training/refreshing/safety/etc days to factor in as well.

So the company actually saves money by paying the drivers extra to work Sundays as overtime than if they were in the working week.

This is true. On a pure bean counting basis you would never bring Sundays into the working week; nevertheless TOCs have done so and I fully expect that more will in the future.

 

[FordFocus]

Seen as Sunday has been mentioned along with the 7 Day Railway..........

The unions want Sunday in the working week. It creates more jobs, increases the headline salary (benefits for pension), helps eliminate enforced overtime, slightly more annual leave to compensate for Sunday inside. It benefits the company as they can virtually guarantee a Sunday service without relying at times on the goodwill of staff to come in to cover a basic service.

The disadvantages are the financial cost to the TOC as the basic salary will have to increase, more staff required and more resources for the staff such as more managers, more training days for staff and pension costs.

From the staff side, not everyone wants Sunday inside the working week. People like the choice of having virtually every Sunday off to spend time with family or go out. I'm personally in this camp, I like to have Sunday off as a choice encase of an event and I avoid the need for annual leave but each to their own.

TOCs will avoid trying to bring it in the working week unless it's forced upon them by the DfT. Financially it's a disaster, you can have train load of leisure passengers but they are all on cheap day tickets rather than peak time mon-fri commuters.

I have no objection to working Sunday, I work my booked ones and fully recognise the growing need for an enhanced service but I, amongst all my other drivers in my TOC signed a contract for the working week to be Mon - Saturday for 6 days a week. It's not my problem if trains get cancelled due to lack of staff, TOCs try to hint it's the drivers and unions fault which couldn't be further from the truth. If they want to change it to 7 day a week they will have to negotiate and make a decent package of salary and t&cs for it to get voted on in a democratic way.

 

[Trackman]

it's usual banter in pay talks, not work RDW then work to rule etc.. it'll fizzle out

 

[voyagerdude220]

I've noticed a few cancellations of VT services today, due to shortages of train crew. I think 05:50 GLC EUS cancelled- originally going to be restarted at Wolverhampton, but then there was a problem with the 2x221/07:15 Bhm Glc terminated at Preston/ 11:40 Glc Eus started at Preston/15:30 Euston to Glasgow terminated at Carlisle/ 16:30 Euston to Glasgow cancelled throughout.

 

[A-driver]

it's usual banter in pay talks, not work RDW then work to rule etc.. it'll fizzle out

Sadly these threats are often the only way to make the company meet to hold the talks. You'd be surprised how often the pay meetings get cancelled or postponed by the company. Gentle reminders from union reps then fall on deaf ears but a week of blank rest day sheets and funnily enough managment suddenly have a free day to hold talks!

Just a coincidence I'm sure though...

 

[FordFocus]

Indeed A-driver


Union wants pay talks in April (or whenever) after the RPI for applicable month is released

Company come in with a below RPI offer, plead poverty which union rejects

Another few weeks passes... Company come in with a RPI offer but with strings attached to change terms and conditions e.g. booking off time removed or breaks altered to suit the company, that sort of thing. Union rejects as they don't want conditions changing

Another few weeks. Union reps can't get released or managers aren't available so talks are postponed.

Few more weeks passes.. Company come back with another offer that tweaks the old one slightly e.g. instead of 2% it's now 2.1% and a change or two to the conditions.. Union rejects

Union members start to ask questions on how talks are going, company council can't say much and the company will constantly state 'the balls in the union's court'..

More time passes, disagreements happening. Talks break down.

Company comes in with a "final offer". Union rejects

Rest Day Working ends. Traincrew shortages because of no overtime to cover the service.

Company comes in with a "final, final offer". Union accepts and puts it to it's members and it gets voted in. A no strings attached deal at RPI, may RPI+0.25% or something.

Rest Day Working comes back, trains running normally.

This can take anywhere between 1-12 months to sort out. It happens every year, that's why I like realistic 2 year pay deals.

 

[HH]

LOL.

1. Pray explain why a "below RPI" offer should be automatically rejected?

2. Does an opening offer of RPI ever get accepted?

3. Does the Union claim never involve changes to T&Cs?

Let's be clear. There's no black and white here; both sides are shades of grey.

 

[A-driver]

LOL.

1. Pray explain why a "below RPI" offer should be automatically rejected?

2. Does an opening offer of RPI ever get accepted?

3. Does the Union claim never involve changes to T&Cs?

Let's be clear. There's no black and white here; both sides are shades of grey.

1-A below RPI offer is in real terms a pay cut so not acceptable. Especially not when year on year drivers productivity tends to increase meaning they are working harder.

2-as above, you e basically asked the same question twice.

3-that question dosnt really make sense, please clarify. Almost all pay deals will involve so,e kind of alteration to the T&Cs. The sticking point in the vast majority of pay talks is actually regarding T&Cs and not money. The press prefer not to report that bit though as they may accidently make unions out to be fairly reasonable.,,

 

[Mag_seven]

There have been a number of VWC cancellations and part cancellations over the past few days due to a driver shortage at Polmadie.

 

[Skimble19]

Indeed A-driver


Union wants pay talks in April (or whenever) after the RPI for applicable month is released

Company come in with a below RPI offer, plead poverty which union rejects

Another few weeks passes... Company come in with a RPI offer but with strings attached to change terms and conditions e.g. booking off time removed or breaks altered to suit the company, that sort of thing. Union rejects as they don't want conditions changing

Another few weeks. Union reps can't get released or managers aren't available so talks are postponed.

Few more weeks passes.. Company come back with another offer that tweaks the old one slightly e.g. instead of 2% it's now 2.1% and a change or two to the conditions.. Union rejects

Union members start to ask questions on how talks are going, company council can't say much and the company will constantly state 'the balls in the union's court'..

More time passes, disagreements happening. Talks break down.

Company comes in with a "final offer". Union rejects

Rest Day Working ends. Traincrew shortages because of no overtime to cover the service.

Company comes in with a "final, final offer". Union accepts and puts it to it's members and it gets voted in. A no strings attached deal at RPI, may RPI+0.25% or something.

Rest Day Working comes back, trains running normally.

This can take anywhere between 1-12 months to sort out. It happens every year, that's why I like realistic 2 year pay deals.

That sounds pretty much exactly what's happening with us at the moment, we're still waiting to hear any news... Been told it may be "soon"

 

[scotraildriver]

RDW now sanctioned after Virgin agreed to a recruitment programme. All sorted.

 

[HH]

1-A below RPI offer is in real terms a pay cut so not acceptable. Especially not when year on year drivers productivity tends to increase meaning they are working harder.

2-as above, you e basically asked the same question twice.

3-that question dosnt really make sense, please clarify. Almost all pay deals will involve so,e kind of alteration to the T&Cs. The sticking point in the vast majority of pay talks is actually regarding T&Cs and not money. The press prefer not to report that bit though as they may accidently make unions out to be fairly reasonable.,,

I'll try again.

1. The official monitor of inflation is now CPI. Many industries use AWE as a measure. So why do UK rail staff see RPI as the starting point?

2. It's not the same question. I ask whether flat RPI would ever be accepted "off the bat". I think we both know the answer to that. This is possibly why management start by offering less than RPI. It's a rather hackneyed negotiating tactic, but that seems to be the way both sides approach pay talks.

3. The TOC isn't the only one that tries to lump in some T&C changes come the pay round.

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

 

[A-driver]

I'll try again.



1. The official monitor of inflation is now CPI. Many industries use AWE as a measure. So why do UK rail staff see RPI as the starting point?



2. It's not the same question. I ask whether flat RPI would ever be accepted "off the bat". I think we both know the answer to that. This is possibly why management start by offering less than RPI. It's a rather hackneyed negotiating tactic, but that seems to be the way both sides approach pay talks.



3. The TOC isn't the only one that tries to lump in some T&C changes come the pay round.



It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Well yes, rather stating the obvious. That's why it's called negotiations rather than demands...

 

[DMU180]

Based on my admittedly small inside knowledge of Virgin Trains I believe that the unions rule the roost and that Virgin will give into them eventually as they are so conscious of their reputation being damaged. I've been lead to believe that the relationship between some members of staff and the unions there is toxic. Please feel free to correct me as I may have completely got the wrong end of the stick but I can only go on what I know!

 

[455driver]

Seen as Sunday has been mentioned along with the 7 Day Railway..........

The unions want Sunday in the working week. It creates more jobs, increases the headline salary (benefits for pension), helps eliminate enforced overtime, slightly more annual leave to compensate for Sunday inside. It benefits the company as they can virtually guarantee a Sunday service without relying at times on the goodwill of staff to come in to cover a basic service.

The disadvantages are the financial cost to the TOC as the basic salary will have to increase, more staff required and more resources for the staff such as more managers, more training days for staff and pension costs.

From the staff side, not everyone wants Sunday inside the working week. People like the choice of having virtually every Sunday off to spend time with family or go out. I'm personally in this camp, I like to have Sunday off as a choice encase of an event and I avoid the need for annual leave but each to their own.

TOCs will avoid trying to bring it in the working week unless it's forced upon them by the DfT. Financially it's a disaster, you can have train load of leisure passengers but they are all on cheap day tickets rather than peak time mon-fri commuters.

I have no objection to working Sunday, I work my booked ones and fully recognise the growing need for an enhanced service but I, amongst all my other drivers in my TOC signed a contract for the working week to be Mon - Saturday for 6 days a week. It's not my problem if trains get cancelled due to lack of staff, TOCs try to hint it's the drivers and unions fault which couldn't be further from the truth. If they want to change it to 7 day a week they will have to negotiate and make a decent package of salary and t&cs for it to get voted on in a democratic way.

Or the headline salary stays the same because the staff will be expected to work the Sunday at flat rate (it is just another day to work now) and have a different day off during the week.

 

[carriageline]

Or the headline salary stays the same because the staff will be expected to work the Sunday at flat rate (it is just another day to work now) and have a different day off during the week.

Very true, but then that wouldn't be accepted without a true fight, or a serious reduction in working days.

RMT want Sunday's inside the working week for us, but I can't see network rail paying us the rise we deem acceptable, or being able or even wanting to recruit the additional signallers.

 

[Starmill]

Title amended to indicate which Virgin Trains we're talking about.

A delightful Oxymoron

 

[Pollo]

RDW now sanctioned after Virgin agreed to a recruitment programme. All sorted.

Watch this space only a two week agreement !!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Based on my admittedly small inside knowledge of Virgin Trains. I've been lead to believe that the relationship between some members of staff and the unions there is toxic.

Would be interesting if you could expand on your small inside knowledge of VT and explain that the toxic relationship your talking about includes Drivers?

The original post was about drivers, not all grades. Some of the non driving grades may very well have this relationship with the union as most of them are not in a union.

VT West Coast Drivers are 98.7% in ASLE&F.

 

[DMU180]

Watch this space only a two week agreement !!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Would be interesting if you could expand on your small inside knowledge of VT and explain that the toxic relationship your talking about includes Drivers?

The original post was about drivers, not all grades. Some of the non driving grades may very well have this relationship with the union as most of them are not in a union.

VT West Coast Drivers are 98.7% in ASLE&F.

Apologies that was rather ambiguous, what I meant to say was the relationship between union drivers and other members of staff who work for VT like Train Managers, Catering Hosts and Management is toxic. I've experienced VT's Euston mess room and it isn't a pleasant place to be.

 

[Carlisle]

Very true, but then that wouldn't be accepted without a true fight, or a serious reduction in working days.

Do you already work a 4 day week? If so, how much shorter do the unions realistically hope it can be reduced to for full time staff

 

[HH]

Do you already work a 4 day week? If so, how much shorter do the unions realistically hope it can be reduced to for full time staff

AFAIK they work a 5 day week, but get 1 week off in 5 (which effectively amounts to the same thing).

However Sundays are additional I believe, so being on a 4 day week from seven days, rather than six, would effectively reduce the working week.

 

[carriageline]

AFAIK they work a 5 day week, but get 1 week off in 5 (which effectively amounts to the same thing).



However Sundays are additional I believe, so being on a 4 day week from seven days, rather than six, would effectively reduce the working week.

Think your confused, he was asking about Network Rail.

Awnser is no, we are on a 5 day week (I think!)

The union want to make it 4 day though.

 

[FordFocus]

LOL.

1. Pray explain why a "below RPI" offer should be automatically rejected?

2. Does an opening offer of RPI ever get accepted?

3. Does the Union claim never involve changes to T&Cs?

Let's be clear. There's no black and white here; both sides are shades of grey.

LOL, I'm sure you're aware of the sort of response this will get

1. As it's a pay cut in real terms.

2. Depends on the TOC, a couple of my pay deals have simply been RPI and were accepted both by the union and it's members.

3. T&Cs can be changed by both parties. It's called negotiation. Companies will want more flexibility towards rostering e.g. Spare movement increased, the union will want to bring the maximum day down from 11 hours to 10 hours.

 

[Carlisle]

Think your confused, he was asking about Network Rail.

Awnser is no, we are on a 5 day week (I think!)

The union want to make it 4 day though.

Ok thanks for the info, I can totally understand the unions trying to get a 4 day week, better work life balance etc, I'm sure very few of us if offered the chance would turn that opportunity down