Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[snowball]

I think it was in late BR days that Roger Ford of Modern Railways used to have, or purport to have, a team of "car park watchers" who described how tenders from rolling stock suppliers arrived at the BR Technical Centre at Derby.

Their accounts included the vehicles they came in (such as a pair of identical Range Rovers, so there was backup if one should break down) and the number of boxes of documents unloaded from each company.

They invariably all came on the last day.

 

[edwin_m]

I think it was in late BR days that Roger Ford of Modern Railways used to have, or purport to have, a team of "car park watchers" who described how tenders from rolling stock suppliers arrived at the BR Technical Centre at Derby.

Their accounts included the vehicles they came in (such as a pair of identical Range Rovers, so there was backup if one should break down) and the number of boxes of documents unloaded from each company.

They invariably all came on the last day.

Sometimes the office which is supposed to receive them is only open for a limited period of time, so they have to deliver within that period.

 

[WatcherZero]

Some info on the award from TfGM briefing paper who are evaluating the bids. Award for Northern/TPE has slipped from October to December, of course the ITT were 2 months late as well (feb rather than dec) though they were planning to keep the intended award date at that time.

 

[HH]

Let's face it - DfT couldn't make a deadline if the existence of the world depended on it.

Bluntly they have no idea. I attended a DfT briefing on franchising; they were patting themselves on the back for the way they handled TSGN. Everyone I've spoken to has agreed that was the worst franchise competition ever. A bunch of monkeys would have done better. Hell, a bunch of MPs would have done better.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some info on the award from TfGM briefing paper who are evaluating the bids. Award for Northern/TPE has slipped from October to December, of course the ITT were 2 months late as well (feb rather than dec) though they were planning to keep the intended award date at that time.

Are the bids not due in tomorrow (26 June)?
Or has that date slipped?

 

[po8crg]

TPE bids were due 28 May 2015, Northern bids tomorrow.

 

[HH]

Are the bids not due in tomorrow (26 June)?
Or has that date slipped?

Northern is due in tomorrow. The bidders have to meet their deadlines.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TPE bids were due 28 May 2015, Northern bids tomorrow.

Remind us when the franchises start...

 

[Muzer]

Let's face it - DfT couldn't make a deadline if the existence of the world depended on it.

Bluntly they have no idea. I attended a DfT briefing on franchising; they were patting themselves on the back for the way they handled TSGN. Everyone I've spoken to has agreed that was the worst franchise competition ever. A bunch of monkeys would have done better. Hell, a bunch of MPs would have done better.

Surely the West Coast competition was worse?

 

[HH]

Surely the West Coast competition was worse?

Nope. Basically it was only worse for Branson. TSGN was worse for everyone!

 

[Muzer]

Nope. Basically it was only worse for Branson. TSGN was worse for everyone!

Well, the West Coast competition was bad in that it caused all the other franchising deals to collapse and caused rather a lot of temporary chaos...

 

[HH]

Well, the West Coast competition was bad in that it caused all the other franchising deals to collapse and caused rather a lot of temporary chaos...

Not sure that the chaos was temporary.

The main problem with TSGN was that they let it before they were ready. In fact they still weren't ready when bidders submitted.

Not convinced they learnt any lessons.

 

[Stats]

Some info on the award from TfGM briefing paper who are evaluating the bids. Award for Northern/TPE has slipped from October to December, of course the ITT were 2 months late as well (feb rather than dec) though they were planning to keep the intended award date at that time.

They intended to award in October even though the timetable in the ITT says December?

 

[WatcherZero]

That's commencement of ramp up.

This is the original language and were still briefing October award:

Shortlisted bidders for the TPE franchise have until 28 May 2015 to submit their bids. For Northern, the deadline is 26 June 2015. Contract award for each franchise is scheduled for late 2015. The new franchises are both scheduled to commence from April 2016.

 

[northwichcat]

I've seen posted on wnxx that there are apparently just two manufacturers competing for the new self-powered vehicles for Northern:

1. Stadler Rail Group with a DEMU FLIRT
2. CAF with an unspecified product

It appears if Bombardier, Siemens, Hitachi or Altsom offered anything it wasn't of interest to bidders.

 

[Camden]

So, basically there is going to be a DMU order soon then?

Wonder what this means for the electrification programme in the north...

 

[northwichcat]

So, basically there is going to be a DMU order soon then?

Wonder what this means for the electrification programme in the north...

There's a large number of Pacers and Sprinters coming towards the ends of their lives so it was always optimistic to assume that electrification alone could replace them all, especially if passenger numbers continued to rise.

DfT admitted North TPE electrification had been delayed in the TPE ITT released before the election and at the same time said in the Northern ITT a minimum of 120 self-powered vehicles were needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, basically there is going to be a DMU order soon then?

Wonder what this means for the electrification programme in the north...

From Roger Ford's email it sounds very much like bi-mode Stadler Flirts are very much on the agenda. This, if true, is excellent news.

 

[northwichcat]

From Roger Ford's email it sounds very much like bi-mode Stadler Flirts are very much on the agenda. This, if true, is excellent news.

I think whatever the winning Northern bidder acquires is likely to be the only new type of train for non-electrified lines for the next few years, so the more versatile it is the better.

I suspect the contract will include an add-on option, which will allow Northern or another franchise to acquire more of the same, similar to what we've seen with the 387s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Stadler units are excellent, and very innovative in design terms. I think they would be most welcome on the UK's rails - while bi-modes will be ideal for many services around the North e.g. Barrow, Buxton etc.

 

[thealexweb]

Can someone please clarify something for me, in the ITT does it require the next Northern Rail to run its new Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services via Bolton or has it been given flexibility?

 

[northwichcat]

Can someone please clarify something for me, in the ITT does it require the next Northern Rail to run its new Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services via Bolton or has it been given flexibility?

Requirement is for a minimum of 20 Manchester Airport-Preston services per day calling at Bolton, 18 of those must be Manchester Airport-Blackpool services. (There's a requirement for 19 Manchester Airport-Blackpool services per day with 1 overnight service so it's likely the overnight service will skip Bolton.)

There is also a requirement for

Two services departing from Windermere to Oxenholme Lake District shall also call at Manchester Airport. Each of these services must not call at more than two intermediate stations between Preston and Manchester Oxford Road.

So it sounds like the spec is hinting at those services serving Bolton without specifically saying it.

 

[thealexweb]

Requirement is for a minimum of 20 Manchester Airport-Preston services per day calling at Bolton, 18 of those must be Manchester Airport-Blackpool services. (There's a requirement for 19 Manchester Airport-Blackpool services per day with 1 overnight service so it's likely the overnight service will skip Bolton.)

There is also a requirement for



So it sounds like the spec is hinting at those services serving Bolton without specifically saying it.

Thank you for clarifying. I am glad that it is highly like all Blackpool North and Windermere services will server Bolton. The overnight TPE service used to serve Bolton pre-December 2013 so I am slightly puzzled why it cannot do so again after the electrification work is complete.

Now I am just curious what will happen to the eight a day Barrow-In-Furness services? Wigan North Western has many more services to Lancaster compared to Bolton's one train per hour provided by the already confirmed Scottish services. In this case is it likely that Chorley would be put first, and Bolton indirectly as a result?

 

[northwichcat]

Now I am just curious what will happen to the eight a day Barrow-In-Furness services? Both Bolton and Wigan North Western will have an hourly service to Lancaster provided by already confirmed Scottish services. In this case is it likely that Chorley would be put first, and Bolton indirectly as a result?

It looks like the bidder can choose to run them Manchester-Preston non-stop if they wish or could stop them at up to a maximum of 2 stations between Manchester Oxford Rd and Preston

 

[BantamMenace]

Thank you for clarifying. I am glad that it is highly like all Blackpool North and Windermere services will server Bolton. The overnight TPE service used to serve Bolton pre-December 2013 so I am slightly puzzled why it cannot do so again after the electrification work is complete.

Now I am just curious what will happen to the eight a day Barrow-In-Furness services? Wigan North Western has many more services to Lancaster compared to Bolton's one train per hour provided by the already confirmed Scottish services. In this case is it likely that Chorley would be put first, and Bolton indirectly as a result?

I'd imagine it will not call anywhere between Preston and Manchester so that it can run via Wigan or Bolton as engineering work dictates.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd imagine it will not call anywhere between Preston and Manchester so that it can run via Wigan or Bolton as engineering work dictates.

I agree. They don't want the franchise to incur costs in running a replacement bus service to serve Bolton/Wigan each time engineering works occur.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if this excellent news will cause a certain Mr Shooter to weep copious tears into his glass of Bollinger. His Genie of the Lamp will have to find somewhere else to offer his "cheap and cheerful" units.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if this excellent news will cause a certain Mr Shooter to weep copious tears into his glass of Bollinger. His Genie of the Lamp will have to find somewhere else to offer his "cheap and cheerful" units.

It was reported a few weeks back that Vivarail were in talks with Arriva Trains Wales over taking on D-Trains.

 

[Starmill]

...Bolton's one train per hour provided by the already confirmed Scottish services.

Oh, did I miss that?

 

[47802]

From Roger Ford's email it sounds very much like bi-mode Stadler Flirts are very much on the agenda. This, if true, is excellent news.

Well it looks an interesting gadget, it will interesting to see how exactly its going to work with high level platforms and limited loading gauge of the UK.

I'm a little surprised there doesn't appear to be anything from the usual 3.

 

[Starmill]

I'm a little surprised there doesn't appear to be anything from the usual 3.

My only cause for concern is that if they haven't offered anything, does that suggest the specification is unworkable? I don't know.