The phantom ticket scribbler returns

[lyndhurst25]

This is my ticket that was checked between Liverpool and Wigan yesterday. The guard has circled the "Start date" and then has deliberately scribbled out the "Valid until" date so that it can hardly be read. The passenger sat opposite me, travelling on a day ticket, just got a circle around the date. I'm not quite sure if the guard is trying to imply anything by this, but there are a few out there who don't know what the break-of-journey rules allow...

 

[Urban Gateline]

This is my ticket that was checked between Liverpool and Wigan yesterday. The guard has circled the "Start date" and then has deliberately scribbled out the "Valid until" date so that it can hardly be read. The passenger sat opposite me, travelling on a day ticket, just got a circle around the date. I'm not quite sure if the guard is trying to imply anything by this, but there are a few out there who don't know what the break-of-journey rules allow...

I'm quite sure the Guards do know about break of Journey, although most people on here say that the scribble is meaningless, I think it does go some way to discouraging multiple use of the same ticket on bits of the route that have already been travelled over.

 

[Hadders]

This should be reported in my opinion.

I can understand the guard's motive - preventing the re-use of the ticket as it's valid for 5 days. However, it does also confuse the break of journey position.

 

[sheff1]

This should be reported in my opinion.

I can understand the guard's motive - preventing the re-use of the ticket as it's valid for 5 days. However, it does also confuse the break of journey position.

I would certainly not report an authorised person scribbling on my ticket.

I don't see how it confuses the BOJ position which is clearly defined in the relevant publications. As far as I am concerned a guard can endorse a ticket in any way they see fit - it does not alter the validity one iota.

I have had one instance where a subsequent guard queried a scibble. I suggested they take the matter up with their colleague who made the scribble and told them the train it was done on. I rather doubt they followed it up.

 

[TUC]

Scribble the date when it's been used, perhaps, but in what way does that give any validity. or power. to cross out the end date?

 

[Jonfun]

Pointless, alhough fairly harmless - the end date's still legible, just. I recall the time G4S (as they were then) took a thick black permanent marker to mine, and even then got the date wrong.

 

[LowLevel]

Most folk who wish to break their journey are clued up enough to tell you and I just put the date on the front and eg 'used SHF-SPT 14/07 1RXX' on the back in the endorsements box.

Nothing more satisfying than getting daggers when you grip period tickets especially when you work the same train on multiple days and they see their cheapo 'seasons' getting wasted. Even on full and standing trains from Manchester and Liverpool I go down when it empties out at Widnes to wind up the SVR and SOR jockeys who by then make up most of the train's occupants.

 

[JB_B]

Most folk who wish to break their journey are clued up enough to tell you

Just out of interest, what mark do you make if the passenger doesn't let you know they're intending to break their journey?

It wouldn't occur to me that I needed to let someone checking tickets know about intended BoJ down the line - very often it's a spur of the moment decision anyway.

and I just put the date on the front and eg 'used SHF-SPT 14/07 1RXX' on the back in the endorsements box.

That makes sense but I'd imagine that's far too time consuming to handwrite on all tickets. I've seen ticket stamps in the past which included both the date and train reporting number - are they still used anywhere?

Nothing more satisfying than getting daggers when you grip period tickets especially when you work the same train on multiple days and they see their cheapo 'seasons' getting wasted. Even on full and standing trains from Manchester and Liverpool I go down when it empties out at Widnes to wind up the SVR and SOR jockeys who by then make up most of the train's occupants.

I do understand the potential for abuse - particularly on period returns.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Just out of interest, what mark do you make if the passenger doesn't let you know they're intending to break their journey?

It wouldn't occur to me that I needed to let someone checking tickets know about intended BoJ down the line - very often it's a spur of the moment decision anyway.



That makes sense but I'd imagine that's far too time consuming to handwrite on all tickets. I've seen ticket stamps in the past which included both the date and train reporting number - are they still used anywhere?



I do understand the potential for abuse - particularly on period returns.

If I encounter a ticket for a distance journey that involves a change I always ask the passenger if they are travelling all the way through before endorsing it, it's quick and easy enough to do.

There are some journeys that I just don't understand why the SOR exists when it is simply 2 x the anytime single. ie Coventry to Birmingham.

These are the tickets where the abuse occurs as they know they are hardly ever going to get their tickets checked or endorsed at peak times. Proper gatelines at BHM will help although with none at the other end it will still be open to abuse. I have encountered multiple amounts of passengers playing this trick.

 

[tony6499]

This is my ticket that was checked between Liverpool and Wigan yesterday. The guard has circled the "Start date" and then has deliberately scribbled out the "Valid until" date so that it can hardly be read. The passenger sat opposite me, travelling on a day ticket, just got a circle around the date. I'm not quite sure if the guard is trying to imply anything by this, but there are a few out there who don't know what the break-of-journey rules allow...

So where did you break your journey ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are some journeys that I just don't understand why the SOR exists when it is simply 2 x the anytime single. ie Coventry to Birmingham.

Because it allows people to return, with BoJ if desired, for up to a month.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Because it allows people to return, with BoJ if desired, for up to a month.

Yes, but what is the point when a single from Birmingham to Coventry is £4.50and the SOR is £9.00? There's hardly any requirement to break that journey anywhere. The ticket should be scrapped, it would create no hardship or lack of flexibility to passengers, and would eradicate the opportunity to fare dodge.

 

[infobleep]

Yes, but what is the point when a single from Birmingham to Coventry is £4.50and the SOR is £9.00? There's hardly any requirement to break that journey anywhere. The ticket should be scrapped, it would create no hardship or lack of flexibility to passengers, and would eradicate the opportunity to fare dodge.

They they can use the return up to a month. Can't do that with a single ticket.

 

[DeeGee]

Yes, but what is the point when a single from Birmingham to Coventry is £4.50and the SOR is £9.00? There's hardly any requirement to break that journey anywhere. The ticket should be scrapped, it would create no hardship or lack of flexibility to passengers, and would eradicate the opportunity to fare dodge.

So, you live in Brum, you're going to take your child, who lives with your ex wife, in Coventry, on holiday from Birmingham International.

You're travelling by train, starting at New Street, collecting the child from Cov to go to the airport, and the mother's collecting the child from Birmingham International on return, from where you go home to Birmingham.

What ticket do you buy to allow this? Not totally unfeasible as an option, is it?

 

[wellwhatitis]

They they can use the return up to a month. Can't do that with a single ticket.

You're missing the point here. If it costs £4.50 to travel out and £4.50 to travel back, there is no benefit to the passenger in buying the return as they can simply buy the single fare for their return journey and have spent the same. It is a journey that doesn't require the flexibility of a break of journey, being 15 minutes long in most cases. So I don't see the point of the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, you live in Brum, you're going to take your child, who lives with your ex wife, in Coventry, on holiday from Birmingham International.

You're travelling by train, starting at New Street, collecting the child from Cov to go to the airport, and the mother's collecting the child from Birmingham International on return, from where you go home to Birmingham.

What ticket do you buy to allow this? Not totally unfeasible as an option, is it?

But you could present a convoluted scenario like that for any number of longer journeys on the network where a SOR is not available, so why should it be for this one?

 

[LowLevel]

Just out of interest, what mark do you make if the passenger doesn't let you know they're intending to break their journey?

It wouldn't occur to me that I needed to let someone checking tickets know about intended BoJ down the line - very often it's a spur of the moment decision anyway.



That makes sense but I'd imagine that's far too time consuming to handwrite on all tickets. I've seen ticket stamps in the past which included both the date and train reporting number - are they still used anywhere?



I do understand the potential for abuse - particularly on period returns.

Just '14/07' or similar in small font on a clear bit of the ticket. If I come across a ticket with a stamp or writing on already I ask if it's been used. The response is either 'oh yes, that's the wrong one, here's the right one', 'oh yes, my mistake, I need to buy another', or 'I broke my journey'. All of which are fine. Just marking in the first place is generally enough to put off the casual period ticket fraudster.

Obviously it doesn't necessarily put off the unfortunate 'dog with a bone' type of inspector you occasionally come across but they tend to find problems no matter what is occurring anyway.

 

[Merseysider]

You're missing the point here. If it costs £4.50 to travel out and £4.50 to travel back, there is no benefit to the passenger in buying the return as they can simply buy the single fare for their return journey and have spent the same. It is a journey that doesn't require the flexibility of a break of journey, being 15 minutes long in most cases. So I don't see the point of the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But you could present a convoluted scenario like that for any number of longer journeys on the network where a SOR is not available, so why should it be for this one?

Suppose I travel from Coventry to Birmingham at 8am and back the following day at 8am. I can either buy a return at Coventry, or I can buy a single Cov-Bhm then the next morning queue up for 10 minutes, missing my train, to buy another single going back, because there was "no benefit" to having the Anytime Return.

But because you don't use a particular ticket and can't see the point in it, it should automatically be scrapped? :roll:

 

[plastictaffy]

and would eradicate the opportunity to fare dodge.

No it wouldn't. People on that route will do almost anything to avoid buying a ticket. What will help is when the ticket barriers go in at Coventry and New Street, and then have them manned properly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm quite sure the Guards do know about break of Journey

That, I doubt. I don't know the BoJ rules, and I don't know many Guards that do!!! The RPI's do and should, though - oh, no, wait, we don't have any.........

 

[wellwhatitis]

Suppose I travel from Coventry to Birmingham at 8am and back the following day at 8am. I can either buy a return at Coventry, or I can buy a single Cov-Bhm then the next morning queue up for 10 minutes, missing my train, to buy another single going back, because there was "no benefit" to having the Anytime Return.

But because you don't use a particular ticket and can't see the point in it, it should automatically be scrapped? :roll:

But similarly to what I said in reply to the other post, there are so many journeys across the network where this would be a useful ticket yet it isn't available and I'm interested in what the criteria is for which journeys it has been made available for?

Any number of passengers could complain about the lack of this facility on their journey, yet it is available on this journey yet rarely required other than by the fare dodgers.

I understand your example fully, but please take it from somebody that has worked this route extensively that most purchasers of this ticket buy it for entirely the wrong reasons as can be ascertained by their unwillingness to hand it over for endorsement.

It's nothing to do with whether I use a ticket or not, your argument is childish. Why don't you stick to discussing the ticket and not me?

 

[Flamingo]

I can't see ANY reason for giving the outward portion of tickets two or five days validity - it is an invite to fare Dodgers, nothing more.

 

[wellwhatitis]

I can't see ANY reason for giving the outward portion of tickets two or five days validity - it is an invite to fare Dodgers, nothing more.

Couldn't agree more. It's an outdated principle that shouldn't be needed by anyone anymore when the walk up fare is exactly the same and you can buy a ticket for any date you want to anyway.

 

[gray1404]

The customer is under no requirement to advise of their intention to break their journey when having their ticket checked. I broke my journey on a ticket 3 times last week. I had no idea when I got on train number 1 what I was doing. It all depended on how long I spent in one place if I wanted to go to another and what my friend thought etc... They may not always know either. I would certainly report it given that marking a ticket is one thing, actually crossing out a date is another.

Personally, I wish we still had ticket stamps or markers rather then marking them with a pen.

Last week on a London Midland service I had it clipped with a lady's butter fly clipper. It left a cut out from the ticket of a butterfly and it was massive. So much so the ticket would no longer work in the ticket barrier. I high doubt they are issued by the company.

 

[David Goddard]

In cases I have seen it comes across as the bloody mindedness or the wanting to feel self importance of the inspector. We went to Paignton on Bank Holiday Monday and on our return leg (which was valid for a month) the ticket was endorsed with circling the start date, writing the date (which was the same), and a vertical line down the centre. On top of this, the weekend First upgrade tickets we bought on the train were scribbled over even more, even though their validity is clearly day only.
Bring back the Ziffa - easily recognised and records the service used in a neat and tidy way. That is, of course, when the TM actually sets the dials correctly and not just leaves it at 0000 or similar

 

[DeeGee]

But you could present a convoluted scenario like that for any number of longer journeys on the network where a SOR is not available, so why should it be for this one?

The absence of a similar fare for a different flow does not necessarily mean that other fares should be abolished to match.

It's a perfectly reasonable scenario. Why reduce honest, fare-paying customers' choice and make them pay more just because some people abuse those tickets?

 

[wellwhatitis]

The absence of a similar fare for a different flow does not necessarily mean that other fares should be abolished to match.

It's a perfectly reasonable scenario. Why reduce honest, fare-paying customers' choice and make them pay more just because some people abuse those tickets?

But I've already demonstrated several times that they wouldn't be paying any more!! I don't know how else to put it?

 

[MikeWh]

But I've already demonstrated several times that they wouldn't be paying any more!! I don't know how else to put it?

Actually, you've demonstrated that for two straight single journeys the price is the same as the return. But if the passenger wanted to break their journey, would it still be the same if one of the journeys had to be split into two separate single tickets?

 

[damo44]

Actually, you've demonstrated that for two straight single journeys the price is the same as the return. But if the passenger wanted to break their journey, would it still be the same if one of the journeys had to be split into two separate single tickets?

But wouldn't each of the single tickets allow a break of journey anyway. I can't actually work out if that is the same as, or more flexible than a return because I lose track of which types of return allow you to break journeys on outward and inward legs (too many ticket types, too many different names for me to keep up with)

 

[DeeGee]

But wouldn't each of the single tickets allow a break of journey anyway. I can't actually work out if that is the same as, or more flexible than a return because I lose track of which types of return allow you to break journeys on outward and inward legs (too many ticket types, too many different names for me to keep up with)

In my example scenario, the single ticket would not allow the customer to break his journey long enough to fly away on holiday. It would require three tickets. The return, however, would, as you can break a SVR or a SOR for up to 30 days after the commencement of the outward journey.

 

[gray1404]

I think the issue at hand here in this post is the way in which tickets are being marked when inspected. There is limited network standardisation.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Actually, you've demonstrated that for two straight single journeys the price is the same as the return. But if the passenger wanted to break their journey, would it still be the same if one of the journeys had to be split into two separate single tickets?

I totally understand your example, but the usage of these tickets for that purpose versus the abuse of the tickets I would suggest is a heavily weighed equation in favour of the latter.

I have never been asked for one of these tickets so somebody can use it like that.

The facility to break the journey makes perfect sense for long journeys where there may have to be a break due to lack of available trains in a 24 hour period to complete the journey, but I very much doubt the principle in the beginning was to cater for circumstances such as the one you raise. It's just that you could do that.

Incidentally, if the passenger made the journeys you mention and all in the peak, the fares would £4.50+£2.20+£3.50. £1.20 more than the SOR. If some of the journeys were Off Peak, the total would actually come to less than the SOR, which is often the case and actually leads to passengers wasting money on these tickets.

When you balance that against the potential to defraud the railway, and again I have seen the evidence myself, I think a decision needs to be made.

When it comes to the marking of the ticket I simply ask the passenger how far they are travelling today and mark the ticket accordingly, I don't scribble the date out unless I know they are completing their journey on my train. That is exactly what we are instructed to do.