End of SWT Franchise?

[jopsuk]

In time for the next franchise? Highly unlikely until something like Crossrail 2 comes along (if it ever does). Our 'metro' network is heavily integrated with the suburban services and separating the two will cause all sorts of issues with diagramming.

Once the 707 fleet is introduced, won't there be fairly clear demarcation, stock wise at least, between "red train" routes and "blue & white train routes"? I appreciate there's also Driver & Guard diagraming- presumably untangling that would require more staff.

 

[HH]

I would say Stagecoach are in a pretty strong position to retain the franchise, any would be usurper is going to have to pull out all the stops to have a good chance of getting it.

Last time they played tricks with ticketless travel - basically got the RPIs to spend all their time covering for Ticket Office staff shortages, while allowing the dodgers to get away with it. Typical Stagecoach behaviour - they sail as close to the line as they think they can get away with. Souter can't even spell ethical.

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Yeah I couldn't work out what Cash was talking about either, was he actually praising a privatised operator, if they had been awarded a extension wouldnt he be out complaining about it like they have done with other franchises and demanding it be nationalised instead...

Hes just being contrarian.

It's a Trotskyist trick. You always pick an argument, no matter what.

 

[Monty]

Once the 707 fleet is introduced, won't there be fairly clear demarcation, stock wise at least, between "red train" routes and "blue & white train routes"? I appreciate there's also Driver & Guard diagraming- presumably untangling that would require more staff.

I don't think so, if anything it could potentially make things even more complex. Units often run over several routes during any given day. For example trains alternate between Weybridge via Brentford and Hounslow Rounders services several times a day. During weekends it's not uncommon for them to go to Windsor either. It's not impossible but quite a bit of behind the scenes work would need to be done to make I happen and even possibly a recast timetable.
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Last time they played tricks with ticketless travel - basically got the RPIs to spend all their time covering for Ticket Office staff shortages, while allowing the dodgers to get away with it. Typical Stagecoach behaviour - they sail as close to the line as they think they can get away with. Souter can't even spell ethical

Interesting, I spent nearly 5 and half years with revenue protection and can't remember ever being used for ticket office staff shortages... Have done the odd bit of queue busting during a Monday morning when the all the windows were open or when a office was shut due to refurbishment but that is something entirely different.

 

[HH]

Interesting, I spent nearly 5 and half years with revenue protection and can't remember ever being used for ticket office staff shortages... Have done the odd bit of queue busting during a Monday morning when the all the windows were open or when a office was shut due to refurbishment but that is something entirely different.

Well this would have been 2005. There was an awful lot of queue busting at (for example) Waterloo, most of the day. Ticketless Travel was running in double figures (which other bidders only found out afterwards), although the "official" rate was 5%. I did warn one bidder what was going on, but no-one realised just how big the effect was.

Stagecoach have always been willing to take a short term loss for a long term profit - just ask the bus companies they've driven out of business.

 

[DY444]

Yeah I couldn't work out what Cash was talking about either, was he actually praising a privatised operator, if they had been awarded a extension wouldnt he be out complaining about it like they have done with other franchises and demanding it be nationalised instead...

Hes just being contrarian.

I suspect he's worried that a new incumbent might have the necessary fortitude for the inevitable and protracted very messy fight to achieve DOO on SW metro. I also suspect that deep down he knows that it's a battle he will eventually lose irrespective of how much disruption is caused by industrial action in the meantime. The SWT area is also a largely tory heartland with plenty of MPs who won't take much disruption before pushing hard for further laws restricting strike action.

I think the RMT would prefer a quiter life and to carry on with an organisation that has made it clear it doesn't want to pursue the DOO route.

 

[fgwrich]

Tony Miles has said that DfT wanted to increase the premium and Stagecoach refused. SWT may have told the RMT they did it because the increased premium would have resulted in staff cuts. However, I imagine profits and reputation were Stagecoach's top concerns.

This being Stagecoach it really wouldn't surprise me. I spoke to a friend of mine this morning and even he say's that they like playing almost fast and loose just to get what they want, and those being directed towards the profit aspect of it all.

As for a new operator, I'm in two minds. One is that I would actually rather like to see someone with a fresher approach to the franchise take it on, with some fare lowering kicking in - I can sometimes make several local journey's a week on both SWT and FGW - The FGW journey's being considerably cheaper for the same if not less distance. And some more innovation too - Like using more than 3 car 159s on Waterloo - Exeter's both during the week and weekends, and a franchisee bothered about looking after the appearance of some of their stations as well. That said, a lot of my journeys on SWT haven't been that bad at all, and apart from times of serious disruptions (Cheers for the taxi back from Waterloo last year!), a lot of the journey's made on SWT like FGW have been fairly smooth and consistent. The other problem being is that apart from someone like MTR, I can't really see anyone else capable really. Not least from the increasingly ever awful Govia / Go Ahead / LOKEGO camp either!

Interesting that on one had we have First taking the DfT lead Break Clause on the GW and getting criticised for it but then successfully retaining the franchise through the Management Contract, while SWT breaking the deal for theirs but almost being patted on the back doing so before triggering a potentially more expensive short term franchise bid effort.

 

[Envy123]

Is SWT really that bad? Considering I found Govia to be much more reliable than FCC and at least their trains don't smell that much.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Commuter numbers will continue to increase so long as the cost of renting/living in London continues to rise and overcrowding will only get worse until we find some way of adding at least one extra track from Surbiton and Barnes to Waterloo, neither of which are realistic prospects. Whether it's Stagecoach, Go-Via, First, Arriva or anyone else they will all face the same infrastructure constraints. The Dft will be looking for big premiums and as the incumbent Stagecoach is in the best position at the moment, PPM is pretty good and NRPS results are no worse than average so I would be surprised if they didn't retain it in 2017.

As a guard I want Stagecoach to retain it as the suggestion is that we'll still have jobs (outside London) but it may be a little different to how we work currently.

 

[the sniper]

I can only hope that the DafT don't split up SWT into two franchises, though they seem to have little interest in efficiencies and integration that exist within a larger TOC. They made a right mess of the West Midlands franchise when they took the now Cross Country 170 work out of it. It introduced inefficiencies that McNulty conveniently can't see and played a large contributing factor in the driver shortage problems that LM have faced. Basically the DafT created a dogs breakfast of a franchise that anybody is going to struggle to run, and the next franchise is seemingly going to see yet another split...

 

[450.emu]

I can only hope that the DafT don't split up SWT into two franchises, though they seem to have little interest in efficiencies and integration that exist within a larger TOC. They made a right mess of the West Midlands franchise when they took the now Cross Country 170 work out of it. It introduced inefficiencies that McNulty conveniently can't see and played a large contributing factor in the driver shortage problems that LM have faced. Basically the DafT created a dogs breakfast of a franchise that anybody is going to struggle to run, and the next franchise is seemingly going to see yet another split...

They should leave SWT alone - it's one of the best rail experiences I've had - alright might be a bit pricey but there's a reason! The trains are spotless. Perhaps it's down to the well-heeled areas it passes through -I can't see who else would take over. Stagecoach could still run 80% of it as 'Virgin SouthWest' if need be :roll:

 

[Metobusfan]

So that's Govia out of the running then?

Yea let govia get it! More free Tavel for us and it would be network southeast

 

[infobleep]

Commuter numbers will continue to increase so long as the cost of renting/living in London continues to rise and overcrowding will only get worse until we find some way of adding at least one extra track from Surbiton and Barnes to Waterloo, neither of which are realistic prospects. Whether it's Stagecoach, Go-Via, First, Arriva or anyone else they will all face the same infrastructure constraints. The Dft will be looking for big premiums and as the incumbent Stagecoach is in the best position at the moment, PPM is pretty good and NRPS results are no worse than average so I would be surprised if they didn't retain it in 2017.

As a guard I want Stagecoach to retain it as the suggestion is that we'll still have jobs (outside London) but it may be a little different to how we work currently.

I don't see how DfT can get vastly increased premiums without fares going up massively precisely because of the infrastructure, unless they grow the leisure market that is but it would have to be the Lesbury market during the as or evening after peak rather than last trains.

In other words times when less people wish to currently travel and/or in directions they currently don't wish to travel in at certain times.

 

[Kite159]

From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33436408


Is this a back-handed compliment for SWT?
Actually, Mick, it's called competition, and is exactly how franchising is supposed to work.

Don't worry, the RMT has to be negative about something when change might be coming.

And I'm sure he said a couple months ago SWT was a "basket-case" on a news report about SWT.

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I can see DfT wanting a change, regardless what Stagecoach & other companies put onto the table for the new deal. Only time will tell when the shortlist comes out

 

[transmanche]

And I'm sure he said a couple months ago SWT was a "basket-case" on a news report about SWT.

Yes, back in March he said:

This is yet another pre election stunt on a basketcase franchise which has a shocking reputation for reliability and overcrowding. We were told that the so called "deep alliance" between NR and SW trains was the model for the future and yet it has proved to be an unmitigated disaster.

Sourcehttp://rmtretailcompanycouncil.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/from-rmt-press-office-general-secretary.html

 

[Robertj21a]

They should leave it with Stagecoach, a safe pair of hands for such an important network.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

This always could open the door for TfL to take on the suburban network, such as the two loops, Shepperton, Epsom, Hampton Court & Chessington South branches.

Leaving SWT to run the mainline services to Woking, Guildford and longer distance stuff with the associated branches to Alton, Ascot etc and the Windsor line services to Reading, Weybridge and of course Windsor.

I for one wouldn't go to TfL.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Is SWT really that bad? Considering I found Govia to be much more reliable than FCC and at least their trains don't smell that much.

SWT are by all accounts, the best of the 3rd rail franchises by a long way.

 

[HH]

SWT are by all accounts, the best of the 3rd rail franchises by a long way.

That's like saying Aston Villa are the best of the Midland's football teams...

 

[matt_world2004]

I don't see why swt are so great every experience I have had with them has been really bad. Their staff not letting me through the barrier at clapham junction, not allowing me to use the staff toilets at clapham junction when I was working in the station their trains on the Kingston loop like they have been cascaded from the soviet union and the guard not enforcing the quiet carriage rules on the Feltham to Waterloo service when someone brought a radio on.

 

[yorksrob]

The 159's are a wonderful way to get to the West Country.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The 159's are a wonderful way to get to the West Country.

If you like sitting over a Cummins 350/400 hp engine, instead of the wonderful quiet Mk3 of an HST!

 

[yorksrob]

If you like sitting over a Cummins 350/400 hp engine, instead of the wonderful quiet Mk3 of an HST!

Well, I do love a Mk 3, but I prefer one with original first class seating.

Plus there's more chance of a table seat on the 159.

 

[Monty]

That's like saying Aston Villa are the best of the Midland's football teams...

But they ain't, it's clearly West Bromwich Albion.

 

[Minilad]

But they ain't, it's clearly West Bromwich Albion.

Form is temporary. Class is permanent

It's Aston Villa. And always will be

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't see why swt are so great every experience I have had with them has been really bad. Their staff not letting me through the barrier at clapham junction, not allowing me to use the staff toilets at clapham junction when I was working in the station their trains on the Kingston loop like they have been cascaded from the soviet union and the guard not enforcing the quiet carriage rules on the Feltham to Waterloo service when someone brought a radio on.

So, who do you believe to be significantly better than Stagecoach ?

 

[JaJaWa]

TfL Rail is the Crossrail franchise, they just don't want it to be branded crossrail while it is running like poo.

And some of the SWT inners will be going to Crossrail 2...

 

[antharro]

Can't come soon enough. Perhaps we'll then get a company which can run a reliable train service with a customer focus.

Are you for real? You really think any of the others will do a better job? I hardly think so. As has been pointed out, same track, same trains, same staff, different logo. Nothing will change quickly, and at least SWT has a decent plan for the future.

I have used SWT fairly regularly (at a minimum, weekly) for the last six years, and can only recall one seriously delayed journey - and that wasn't SWT's fault. I have always found them to be an excellent TOC, the trains are usually in good order, the guards on the long distance routes are usually happy to help. I was surprised by the quality of their 455 refurb and I'm pleased they now have a life extension project for them (even if it means they're going to sound completely different!). I like their proposed plans for the future and I think if they're allowed to proceed with them, their routes will be much better served.

That's not to say I like everything about them; I think they need to pay a little more attention to the upkeep of some of their fleet (444s in particular at the moment), I have a resentment over how they handled the 442 withdrawal, and while they have great staff on the ground (mostly), I've never been so happy with their management - at least the ones at the meet the manager sessions. But while they continue to provide me with a reliable, regular train service, these are not significant problems for me.

I think people who think there's nothing good about them need to spend some time travelling regularly on other TOCs. SWT may not be the pinnacle of a a good company providing a good train service, but they're pretty damn good in my opinion. I do hope that this is not the end of the franchise and that they will keep it, even if they lose a bit of the metro stuff to TfL or whoever. I also hope that if they do, they won't become complacent and let standards slip.

 

[Andrewlong]

This always could open the door for TfL to take on the suburban network, such as the two loops, Shepperton, Epsom, Hampton Court & Chessington South branches.

Leaving SWT to run the mainline services to Woking, Guildford and longer distance stuff with the associated branches to Alton, Ascot etc and the Windsor line services to Reading, Weybridge and of course Windsor.

I for one wouldn't go to TfL.

I wish SWT or whoever owns the franchise gets some decent stock to replace those cramped 3&2 seats which we have to suffer on the Reading to Waterloo line.

 

[antharro]

I wish SWT or whoever owns the franchise gets some decent stock to replace those cramped 3&2 seats which we have to suffer on the Reading to Waterloo line.

Having done that journey many times, I think 3+2 is more comfortable on a 450 than a 458/5. And the ride quality and ambience are better on a 450 than a 458/5 (imo, and disclaimer - I rather like the 458s). I always feel slightly tired when travelling to the stations at the end of that line from Waterloo in standard. First is better but not great.

That said, 3+2 is never really comfortable for any real distance. The only good thing about that journey when travelling out of Waterloo, is once you get to Richmond, you lose a lot of passengers, then the rest at stations to Ascot. Beyond that, it usually feels like an off-peak outer suburban service with a load of empty seats!

Unfortunately, I don't think 3+2 is going anywhere, at least not while the DfT focus so strongly on seat numbers. It's the easiest way to cram more people in and please the DfT - passenger comfort doesn't come into it at all, and the TOCs can't displease the DfT otherwise they're on the naughty list at franchise time!

 

[JaJaWa]

Unfortunately, I don't think 3+2 is going anywhere, at least not while the DfT focus so strongly on seat numbers. It's the easiest way to cram more people in and please the DfT - passenger comfort doesn't come into it at all, and the TOCs can't displease the DfT otherwise they're on the naughty list at franchise time!

Don't the DfT focus on train capacity? You can get more passengers standing in a set space than sitting.