W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[craigybagel]

"All we want is to make sure our services give the best possible deal for our passengers. These brand new trains have been designed to deliver more seats, and faster, more frequent journeys for passengers - but we can't deliver those if they are operated in the same way as the 40-year-old trains that run today.

But why can't they? Given that that is exactly what VTEC are planning on doing?

 

[bnm]

I'm also trying to find out if all RMT members were balloted, as I think certain grades, eg Drivers, were not balloted. I'm pretty sure that the 2700 RMT members referred to in the FGW briefings includes all RMT members in the company, not all ballots sent out.

According to the RMT's press release on on 30th June 2015, all FGW members were balloted.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/ballot-records-overwhelming-vote-for-action-on-fgw/

 

[Flamingo]

But why can't they? Given that that is exactly what VTEC are planning on doing?

Nobody expected to work them in the same way HST's are worked. But there is not that much difference that requires such a radical change, either. As I have said before, the tracks are the same, the routes are the same (one could argue more risky as now there will be a 25 000 volt cable overhead), the passengers are the same, the signal equipment (and failures thereof) are the same.

Why do we need a guard on-board now, but not in two years?

 

[Dave1987]

These brand new trains have been designed to deliver more seats, and faster, more frequent journeys for passengers - but we can't deliver those if they are operated in the same way as the 40-year-old trains that run today.

This statement more than anything shows that they intend to run completely DOO in the future. All FGW striking staff you have my full support.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do we need a guard on-board now, but not in two years?

Because ticketing and enforcement technology and policy changes over time?

Because fGW suburban services are *already* DOO?

(To reiterate, I'm not in favour of full DOO for IC services, but the arguments are there and they can't be simply ignored)

 

[Flamingo]

Because ticketing and enforcement technology and policy changes over time?

Because fGW suburban services are *already* DOO?

(To reiterate, I'm not in favour of full DOO for IC services, but the arguments are there and they can't be simply ignored)

Given that our role is not primarily revenue, and the existing revenue staff, for all practical intents and purposes ignore the HSS side, tickets are not the main concern.

There is a big difference between a stopper from Pad to Reading, and something going non-stop to Taunton from Reading, or Cardiff to Swansea on a Saturday night...

 

[Minilad]

Again you try to make it personal. :roll:

I've told you before, I'm a union member. I supported the RMT in their dispute with Network Rail, I supported RMT action at PNZ depot, there are other instances when I've supported the RMT.

I do not support the RMT or its members on this particular call to arms.

One is allowed to have nuanced views about unions and the particular disputes of individual unions. Unlike you I don't see unions as being a black or white, pro- or anti-, issue. One is also allowed to change their mind or have it changed by the side they disagree with.

Will striking FGW staff be boycotting CrossCountry Voyager services during the industrial action? One would hope so bearing in mind the reasons for this particular industrial action.

They have doors operated by the driver. They have a trolley catering service. They are trains that are maintained by the manufacturer.

Opened by the driver. Closed by the driver under instruction from a guard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a big difference between a stopper from Pad to Reading, and something going non-stop to Taunton from Reading, or Cardiff to Swansea on a Saturday night...

There is in customer service (dealing with passengers) terms, but I'm not convinced that there is in terms of the safety of the train. Two safety-critical staff are better than one, but aside from heavily-staffed operations like the Tube I'm not convinced there is much difference in terms of *how much* better between fGW local services, particularly beyond Reading, and fGW IC.

And if the implication of Cardiff to Swansea is alcohol-related problems, a small team of minimum wage rent-a-thug security guards might be of more use than a lone railway guard afraid to leave the back cab for fear of assault.

 

[Hibernian1]

Should we not have a trained guard on all trains considering the level of terrorists threats we have in this country. All toc are interested in is making huge profits and aren't in the least bit bothered in their passengers. Does it take something really bad to happen before people wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Flamingo]

There is in customer service (dealing with passengers) terms, but I'm not convinced that there is in terms of the safety of the train. Two safety-critical staff are better than one, but aside from heavily-staffed operations like the Tube I'm not convinced there is much difference in terms of *how much* better between fGW local services, particularly beyond Reading, and fGW IC.

And if the implication of Cardiff to Swansea is alcohol-related problems, a small team of minimum wage rent-a-thug security guards might be of more use than a lone railway guard afraid to leave the back cab for fear of assault.

HST's don't have a back cab, and on the Cdf-Swansea trains, the guard has no choice but to walk through, given the requirements of where the doors have to be opened and closed from.

Anyway, security staff have no more powers than we do.

 

[bnm]

Should we not have a trained guard on all trains considering the level of terrorists threats we have in this country. All toc are interested in is making huge profits and aren't in the least bit bothered in their passengers. Does it take something really bad to happen before people wake up and smell the coffee.

We've had Driver Only Operation for decades. Through many periods of heightened security. What exactly can a guard do to prevent terrorism? You appear to be suggesting a guard will somehow prevent a terrorist attack.

Something bad happening can occur on a train with multiple members of staff.

 

[Hibernian1]

What can a guard do? Trained to deal with emergency situations while a revenue collector is not and if the driver became incapacitated who do you think you would want helping a safety critical member of staff or just a random?

 

[Ash Bridge]

This statement more than anything shows that they intend to run completely DOO in the future. All FGW striking staff you have my full support.

Absolutely agree here, I'll certainly add my full support too.

 

[plymothian]

There seems little point arguing (bickering?) this any longer.

RMT want the strike; the public don't want it and the only toss they give is that staff are cancelling their trains; FGW don't want the disruption but because of it can probably prove the point that with these new trains, staff can no longer be a factor in their cancellation.

In a race to the bottom society, no one's job is secure; and technology will be putting humans out of work just like automobiles put horses out of work.

 

[bnm]

What can a guard do? Trained to deal with emergency situations while a revenue collector is not and if the driver became incapacitated who do you think you would want helping a safety critical member of staff or just a random?

I asked what a guard can do to prevent terrorism. Would the incidents and the aftermath of 10 years ago tomorrow (7/7) have been any less worse had those tube trains still been operated with a guard?

I'll reiterate. DOO has been around for decades. Using the remote chance of a terrorist attack as reason for crewing all trains with a guard is just plain absurd.

 

[bb21]

I asked what a guard can do to prevent terrorism.

I'll reiterate. DOO has been around for decades.

I don't think anyone suggested that staff can most definitely prevent terrorism.

But if you want possible scenarios, then an extra pair of eyes may just spot some subtle signs that otherwise would have gone amiss.

 

[Flamingo]

Funny, every member of staff I spoke to yesterday said they hoped there would be progress today. Not what one would expect of people who wanted two days unpaid leave this week...

 

[thelongestroad]

Funny, every member of staff I spoke to yesterday said they hoped there would be progress today. Not what one would expect of people who wanted two days unpaid leave this week...

Absolutely. That's the impression I've had too.

Purely out of interest BNM, which bits of the dispute are you against?

 

[Dave1987]

There seems little point arguing (bickering?) this any longer.

RMT want the strike; the public don't want it and the only toss they give is that staff are cancelling their trains; FGW don't want the disruption but because of it can probably prove the point that with these new trains, staff can no longer be a factor in their cancellation.

In a race to the bottom society, no one's job is secure; and technology will be putting humans out of work just like automobiles put horses out of work.

Indeed it's sad to see the public only see the fact their travel arrangements are being disrupted and how dare the FGW staff take action against the managements wishes to go DOO. They will be the first to complain when there is no guard on their service to Reading to help them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a quick question for the people who have no problem with DOO and the resultant loss of jobs or reduction of earnings for the people affected.
Why are you so keen on having DOO when it will mean absolutely nothing to you or have any material effect on you?
I could never imagine myself being happy to see someone losing a job or having to take a reduction in earnings when I didn't benefit from that in any way.
Lets face it the only people who will benefit here are shareholders in the TOC. Fares will not go down. The service you get will not get better.
I just don't get it

Under BR, HSTs had 2 drivers in the cab for speeds over 110mph (ie GWML, ECML).
Fairly soon after privatisation, the TOCs agreed deals for single-manning, including VT which went to 125mph after the WCML upgrade, and presumably now Southeastern and EMT.
No doubt the drivers secured suitable terms for this change in operation.
I don't remember a big song and dance about the change.
Nobody is fussed today about only one driver in the cab.

Productivity improvements like this are needed across the whole railway.
You might realistically be right about fares etc, but it's the paymaster (HMG) who gets the benefit, ie taxpayers.
Where do you think railway subsidies and investment come from?

 

[bb21]

FGW's response to the break down of talks today. Note the measured language, lack of rhetoric or hyperbole:

These brand new trains have been designed to deliver more seats, and faster, more frequent journeys for passengers - but we can't deliver those if they are operated in the same way as the 40-year-old trains that run today.

That sounds like hyperbole to me.

Faster? Possibly. The only thing I agree with in FGW's proposals is driver door release, which can reduce station dwell times marginally, but that is about it, marginal improvements. 20 seconds per station (a hugely generous estimate) on a 15 station run (Paddington to Penzance roughly) saves me a grand total of 300 seconds, so 5 minutes off a journey of 5 hours. Even if you just take the stop-start section between Penzance and Plymouth - 10 stations so a little over 3 minutes off a 2-hour journey.

How is the number of seats affected? If a train has 500 seats then it has 500 seats.

More frequent journeys? I don't think guards are refusing to work trains. If FGW really cared about it, they could invest in more staff to work those trains, surely? Of course I'm not stupid, that means spending shareholders' money.

Not having a go at you. I just don't think they are as nice and innocent as your comments made them out to be.

 

[yorkie]

But if you want possible scenarios, then an extra pair of eyes may just spot some subtle signs that otherwise would have gone amiss.

True, and I am all for two staff on each train, but that pair of eyes could be a ticket inspector constantly patrolling the train, which might be better than the case on some trains with Guards (for example I've noticed this a lot on TPE during evenings in recent years) don't have anyone patrolling the train as a Guard can - unlike a travelling inspector - remain in the back cab.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Faster? Possibly. The only thing I agree with in FGW's proposals is driver door release, which can reduce station dwell times marginally, but that is about it, marginal improvements. 20 seconds per station (a hugely generous estimate) on a 15 station run (Paddington to Penzance roughly) saves me a grand total of 300 seconds, so 5 minutes off a journey of 5 hours. Even if you just take the stop-start section between Penzance and Plymouth - 10 stations so a little over 3 minutes off a 2-hour journey. ....

I've been on some trains where the saving would be a LOT more than 20 seconds. Yes the saving shouldn't be greater than that, as in theory timekeeping takes priority over revenue, but the reality is some trains do run late because of excessive delay opening the doors (most examples I experience of this tend to be on Northern)

 

[313103]

Again you try to make it personal. :roll:

I've told you before, I'm a union member. I supported the RMT in their dispute with Network Rail, I supported RMT action at PNZ depot, there are other instances when I've supported the RMT.

I do not support the RMT or its members on this particular call to arms.

One is allowed to have nuanced views about unions and the particular disputes of individual unions. Unlike you I don't see unions as being a black or white, pro- or anti-, issue. One is also allowed to change their mind or have it changed by the side they disagree with.

Will striking FGW staff be boycotting CrossCountry Voyager services during the industrial action? One would hope so bearing in mind the reasons for this particular industrial action.

They have doors operated by the driver. They have a trolley catering service. They are trains that are maintained by the manufacturer.

Oh yes they have a trolley, hmmm and don't I know it whilst travelling to Bristol Parkway from Manchester yesterday the trolley provided No Hot drinks, no sandwiches and no crisps from Manchester to Birmingham New Street wonderful trolley service indeed was a waste of time the lady pulling the three quarter empty trolley. Welcome to cross country catering.

You will be pleased that despite first great westerns plans I cannot take industrial action even though my job and future prospects are directly affected by these changes as I work for another company.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What can a guard do? Trained to deal with emergency situations while a revenue collector is not and if the driver became incapacitated who do you think you would want helping a safety critical member of staff or just a random?

imo for all TOCs where it's not the case all on-board staff should be fully trained in emergency procedures

 

[bnm]

That sounds like hyperbole to me.

Faster? Possibly. The only thing I agree with in FGW's proposals is driver door release, which can reduce station dwell times marginally, but that is about it, marginal improvements. 20 seconds per station (a hugely generous estimate) on a 15 station run (Paddington to Penzance roughly) saves me a grand total of 300 seconds, so 5 minutes off a journey of 5 hours. Even if you just take the stop-start section between Penzance and Plymouth - 10 stations so a little over 3 minutes off a 2-hour journey.

How is the number of seats affected? If a train has 500 seats then it has 500 seats.

More frequent journeys? I don't think guards are refusing to work trains. If FGW really cared about it, they could invest in more staff to work those trains, surely? Of course I'm not stupid, that means spending shareholders' money.

Not having a go at you. I just don't think they are as nice and innocent as your comments made them out to be.

More seats than the trains they are replacing.

More staff are being employed.

Faster journey times because of improved acceleration and reduced dwell times. Bristol to London 22 minutes faster. Cardiff 17 minutes.

Plymouth and Cornwall can't really be used as a comparison at the moment between existing and future Greater Western franchise rolling stock. No decision yet on the rolling stock for the long distance Greater Western services to the far west. Frequency will increase though, and thus seats, whether it's AT300s or HSTs soldiering on to the far west. What you can compare though is Voyagers versus HSTs between Penzance and Plymouth. Take the 0828 XC versus the 1000 FGW. Both with the same number of stops at the same stations. The XC is 7 minutes quicker to Plymouth. By Taunton the XC is 12 minutes quicker overall from Penzance despite having dwelled at Plymouth for 7 minutes and Exeter for 4 minutes.

 

[313103]

There is in customer service (dealing with passengers) terms, but I'm not convinced that there is in terms of the safety of the train. Two safety-critical staff are better than one, but aside from heavily-staffed operations like the Tube I'm not convinced there is much difference in terms of *how much* better between fGW local services, particularly beyond Reading, and fGW IC.

And if the implication of Cardiff to Swansea is alcohol-related problems, a small team of minimum wage rent-a-thug security guards might be of more use than a lone railway guard afraid to leave the back cab for fear of assault.

Be interesting to see a guard in the back cab of a hst.

 

[455driver]

imo for all TOCs where it's not the case all on-board staff should be fully trained in emergency procedures

Who pays for the training and refreshers?
FGW/DaFT are trying to save every penny they can so they can afford these new trains, they certainly wont be paying out for extra training for the remaining staff!

 

[craigybagel]

T

I've been on some trains where the saving would be a LOT more than 20 seconds. Yes the saving shouldn't be greater than that, as in theory timekeeping takes priority over revenue, but the reality is some trains do run late because of excessive delay opening the doors (most examples I experience of this tend to be on Northern)

Northern are of course notable for being the most restrictive on where they permit guards to dispatch from, and whose units in any case have the least amount of door panels. (A guard on an Atw 150\2 can dispatch from 4 different locations per side per 2 car unit. A northern guard on one of their 150\2 only has one per side per unit, the rear most crew door). This will cause delays. It should be noted that the new FGW trains should have at least one panel per side per carriage as per the minimum specifications. They may well end up with a panel at every door as has been the norm with a lot of modern stock.

Incidentally, I was travelling on board a London Overground service the other day, and noted that on average from the train stopping to the doors opening took 10-11 seconds. As a guard, I can open my local door, check the platform and release the other doors safely a lot faster than that!

 

[bnm]

Oh yes they have a trolley, hmmm and don't I know it whilst travelling to Bristol Parkway from Manchester yesterday the trolley provided No Hot drinks, no sandwiches and no crisps from Manchester to Birmingham New Street wonderful trolley service indeed was a waste of time the lady pulling the three quarter empty trolley. Welcome to cross country catering.

No sandwiches, pies, pasties, no regular coke, no ground coffee (only instant) and, worst of all for me, no bottled ale, on the 1130 from Paignton to Paddington (full size buffet) on Monday 29th June.

Stock control issues are not unique to trolleys. People buy stuff.

 

[313103]

More seats than the trains they are replacing.

More staff are being employed.

Faster journey times because of improved acceleration and reduced dwell times. Bristol to London 22 minutes faster. Cardiff 17 minutes.

Plymouth and Cornwall can't really be used as a comparison at the moment between existing and future Greater Western franchise rolling stock. No decision yet on the rolling stock for the long distance Greater Western services to the far west. Frequency will increase though, and thus seats, whether it's AT300s or HSTs soldiering on to the far west. What you can compare though is Voyagers versus HSTs between Penzance and Plymouth. Take the 0828 XC versus the 1000 FGW. Both with the same number of stops at the same stations. The XC is 7 minutes quicker to Plymouth. By Taunton the XC is 12 minutes quicker overall from Penzance despite having dwelled at Plymouth for 7 minutes and Exeter for 4 minutes.

More seats, so a five car iep will be replacing a 8 car hst with the same frequency on the Swansea to London line? If that's the case I would hate to see the seating layout on a iep. FGW are not improving the service to Swansea. the only reason why the timetable is so long on duel times is down to ppm for a start the networks poor train regulations, not because it takes longer to dispatch a train.

FGW also say that services will improve yet the summer service to Pembroke Dock will be permanently withdrawn beyond Carmethen when the ieps are rolled out, so rather than improving in that part of the country they are actually withdrawing services.