W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[Flamingo]

B

Actually i think guards are perfectly placed and able to tell how TEs will cope based on their knowledge of emergency training and procedures. And it's quite slanderous to say 'your days of sitting in the back cab are over' as it implies all guards do exactly that. '

Well, from a personal point of view, I'm unable to make any comment on what an ATE does or does not do, as they don't regularly work any FGW HST's as far as I'm aware (at least not for more than a few stops, never near London), but concentrate on morning commuter 2-3 car trains (which outside of the LTV area always have a Revenue-Trained Guard as well).

I'm sure with the appropriate training they could do the same job as a Guard, but why bother downgrading one persons role and upskilling another's, but then have a situation that neither are there to do everything when requiredd?

 

[HH]

I totally agree, it's not reasonable to assume that any job is immune from redundancy. It's just the mist of uncertainty hanging over certain grades which is not going to be great for morale over the coming years.

Of course; that's why FGW have done the best they can to assure staff that their jobs are safe. As noted previously, under the terms of their franchise agreement they cannot promise any more.

If RMT think that DfT are going to come out of the shadows and guarantee anything beyond that then they are sadly mistaken. But I don't suppose they think that at all. Really the strike is just to make the staff think RMT are doing something. In reality the staff will just lose a few days pay and upset a bunch of passengers.

Maybe the staff should go picket the DfT offices for the day.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm

Of course; that's why FGW have done the best they can to assure staff that their jobs are safe. As noted previously, under the terms of their franchise agreement they cannot promise any more.

If RMT think that DfT are going to come out of the shadows and guarantee anything beyond that then they are sadly mistaken. But I don't suppose they think that at all. Really the strike is just to make the staff think RMT are doing something. In reality the staff will just lose a few days pay and upset a bunch of passengers.

Maybe the staff should go picket the DfT offices for the day.

We are not stupid, far from it. It's not only what's been said, it's the way it is being said, the body-language of those saying it, and the questions that are not being answered or sidelined when asked that are causing concern.

Do you really think that RMT members have not been asking managers, directors, the union and each other before voting? And that if the answers coming back had managed to convince more than one in five that this would not have been reflected in the vote?

The RMT has not been scaremongering on this amongst staff - most staff (I certainly do) treat a lot of what the RMT comes out with as rhetoric. But in this case, the RMT have not had to rally the troops in opposition to these proposals - FGW have managed to do that pretty successfully on their own.

 

[FordFocus]

Your friendly Ticket Examiner/customer service bod/whatever will be considerably less helpful in either case.
So, who are you to judge who will be helpful or less able to cope in an emergency situation, do you not think Ticket Examiners have the ability to do so ? You come across very patronising and show clearly the divide you conductors seem to have within this railway environment, dont be so smug, your job is not too far away from ours. as for DOO, it works well up here in Scotland, and thats your problem, afraid your days of sitting in back cab are about over.

What level of training do TEs get in Scotland?

Are they trained on the route, GSM-R, traction, rule book knowledge, protection, blocking the line, contacting the ECO amongst other things?

Not forgetting that Scotrail trains can run without a TE, despite the manning agreement. :roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

Not forgetting that Scotrail trains can run without a TE, despite the manning agreement.

But if they do they get fined for each train (or actually I think it might each service) that runs without a TE. So they're not likely to do it willingly.

 

[FordFocus]

Is it my imagination or was First Group regularly running without TEs and that Transport Scotland wasn't aware of this for sometime?

 

[notadriver]

But if they do they get fined for each train (or actually I think it might each service) that runs without a TE. So they're not likely to do it willingly.

Is a Ticket Examiner obliged to answer calls from the driver over the internal train communication system (are they trained to use it?) and to follow instructions given by the driver or do they just check tickets ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it my imagination or was First Group regularly running without TEs and that Transport Scotland wasn't aware of this for sometime?

I'm not sure but that would surely be a failure by Transport Scotland in not doing their due diligence to ensure that the contract is being followed correctly? Do we have any information on Abellio's performance so far?

Is a Ticket Examiner obliged to answer calls from the driver over the internal train communication system (are they trained to use it?) and to follow instructions given by the driver or do they just check tickets ?

My impression is that they were trained to assist in evacuation (which would involve using communication systems presumably) but I'm not 100% sure of that.

 

[notadriver]

My impression is that they were trained to assist in evacuation (which would involve using communication systems presumably) but I'm not 100% sure of that.

They you are - a properly trained train manager or conductor guard does far more than just assist in evacuations. They aid the driver with the day to day operation of the train.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wasn't commenting on that so I'm unclear on your point in relation to ScotRail services running without TEs in some situations?

 

[FordFocus]

I'm not sure but that would surely be a failure by Transport Scotland in not doing their due diligence to ensure that the contract is being followed correctly? Do we have any information on Abellio's performance so far?

Could be interesting. I'll try and dig out some information, it was a few years ago so it's probably 404 errors now.

 

[bnm]

The RMT has not been scaremongering on this amongst staff - most staff (I certainly do) treat a lot of what the RMT comes out with as rhetoric. But in this case, the RMT have not had to rally the troops in opposition to these proposals - FGW have managed to do that pretty successfully on their own.

And yet only 41% of the troops voted for strike action.

 

[Carlisle]

Oh

The RMT has not been scaremongering on this amongst staff - most staff (I certainly do) treat a lot of what the RMT comes out with as rhetoric. But in this case, the RMT have not had to rally the troops in opposition to these proposals - FGW have managed to do that pretty successfully on their own.

Both sides are being vague,FGW are not giving enough reassurance,guarantee's,information etc to staff,and RMTs not clear if it wants virtually nothing short of a total surrender of all proposed changes by management before it will call off Thursdays strike

 

[HH]

Is it my imagination or was First Group regularly running without TEs and that Transport Scotland wasn't aware of this for sometime?

Possibly your imagination. From personal experience and that of colleagues, we've never seen one without a TE, although it must happen occasionally.

 

[Holly]

Many operate their Inter City trains without a guard responsible for doors though. They still have onboard staff, just as FGW will.
I applaud FGW for trying to move forward. Just as their predecessors on the Western Region did when fighting the unions' absurd demands to have a secondman in HSTs. The unions won that battle temporarily but, rightly, lost the war.

The root issue though surely is not who operates the doors.
But rather who despatches the train.
It is a significant safety problem for a driver to despatch a long distance train. The driver of a long distance train has too many other safety related duties that would necessarily not be attended to so well if the driver were to despatch the train.
Provided there are station staff to despatch the train it doesn't necessarily have to be done by an onboard guard.

 

[ComUtoR]

It is a significant safety problem for a driver to despatch a long distance train. The driver of a long distance train has too many other safety related duties that would necessarily not be attended to so well if the driver were to despatch the train.

I hate to disagree but considering plenty of services run DOO it is not a significant safety problem. I drive DOO day in, day out. Are you suggesting that a "long distance" service is more safety intense and the Driver has more safety concerns than a metro service ?

My personal concerns over DOO are not specifically driving related. My concern is for the passenger.

FYI I do not support DOO

 

[Scott M]

Must admit as an outsider who reads left-wing newspapers I used to have a lot of respect for the unions, but having read these forums for a while I am starting to feel RMT call a strike on a weekly basis. :/

 

[Flamingo]

Must admit as an outsider who reads left-wing newspapers I used to have a lot of respect for the unions, but having read these forums for a while I am starting to feel RMT call a strike on a weekly basis. :/

In over ten years, it's the first strike affecting my depot. They are actually very few and far between (despite the rhetoric)

 

[HH]

Must admit as an outsider who reads left-wing newspapers I used to have a lot of respect for the unions, but having read these forums for a while I am starting to feel RMT call a strike on a weekly basis. :/

RMT have the unenviable task of doing a "Cnut" on the tides of progress (I use progress in the loosest sense).

The problem is that the safety card has lost its power. UK Rail has a safety record that is the envy of the world and of other UK industries. There is no evidence that driver door operation is any less safe than guard operated; indeed from recent incidents it could appear to be the opposite.

That a second person on board would be useful in the event of a disaster cannot be denied, but Potters Bar was over 13 years ago.

 

[thelongestroad]

F*ck it, that's that decided then... DOO is safer than guard operation. Let's go the whole hog and get rid of the drivers too. Continued yearly fare rises, but hey no one has to make eye contact with anyone anymore!

 

[notadriver]

RMT have the unenviable task of doing a "Cnut" on the tides of progress (I use progress in the loosest sense).
There is no evidence that driver door operation is any less safe than guard operated; indeed from recent incidents it could appear to be the opposite.

Complete and utter nonsense.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Complete and utter nonsense.

Let HH stick to delusions. I do like a laugh!

 

[notadriver]

What about the scenario of a DOO train and a wheelchair user that needs to get on or off the train at an unstaffed station or even a staffed station when staff haven't been informed ?

 

[Jonfun]

Well, they'll just be getting a little trip to Penzance instead of Bristol. Little bit of extra ride for their money?

 

[jopsuk]

What about the scenario of a DOO train and a wheelchair user that needs to get on or off the train at an unstaffed station or even a staffed station when staff haven't been informed ?

how does it work at the moment on existing DOO lines? EG, locally to me, how do wheelchair users get on or of at Whittlesford Parkway, outside of staffed hours?

 

[HH]

Complete and utter nonsense.

I do like a nice reasoned argument.

 

[Bletchleyite]

how does it work at the moment on existing DOO lines? EG, locally to me, how do wheelchair users get on or of at Whittlesford Parkway, outside of staffed hours?

I would imagine, though I'm not sure, that the TOC would provide a free taxi to/from a station with suitable facilities.

 

[yorkie]

It is a significant safety problem for a driver to despatch a long distance train. The driver of a long distance train has too many other safety related duties that would necessarily not be attended to so well if the driver were to despatch the train.

Do similar 'problems' and 'duties' not apply to Southeastern High Speed services? Can you elaborate?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... but hey no one has to make eye contact with anyone anymore!

There's more chance of making eye contact with ticket inspectors on Strathclyde electrics than on certain trains with a Guard.

 

[Kite159]

From wondering around the greater Bristol area yesterday, one FGW line which could do with Driver Operated Doors is the Severn Beach line, most of the stations lack TVMs, all bar Temple Meads are ungated, and the stations are quite close together.

The 2nd member of staff will then be available to check/sell tickets without having to stop every couple of minutes to open the doors, and be available to help with pushchairs/wheelchairs on/off the train as some of those platforms are quite low with gaps

 

[Busaholic]

Just been speaking to an acquaintance who, as a non-driver having business in London and Oxford, uses trains from Penzance on a fairly regular basis. He told me of his horrible journey on Friday night from Paddington on the 19.00, train rammed and no air con working over the whole journey: the TM was making valiant efforts with water being brought on at various stations to alleviate matters, so no tickets were inspected at any stage (almost unprecedented these days) and the train was very late arriving at PZ. In this Brave New World Scenario, what is to prevent that whole journey being made with driver only 'in extremis' - I realise it is more than one duty, but during disruption it could easily happen that consecutive duty bods were missing. Suppose somebody collapsed and died of heat exhaustion during one of these all-too-common failures of aircon: one could imagine a coroner recommending that no long distance train be allowed to proceed without a member of staff other than the driver present.