Virgin Trains East Coast - Disruption Management

[Starmill]

I'm currently at Kings Cross, I had an Advance to Nottingham on the 1609 via Grantham. After a short break, I have an Advance to Manchester On EMT. Unfortunately that train was cancelled, and there's a lack of alternatives because of poor connections at Grantham. The platform staff advised to try the 1633 to Leeds, but this was so full and so, so hot I could hardly board, and 10 minutes after its booked departure time the guard announced that we wouldn't be going anywhere.

In an attempt to replan my journey I tried the ticket office. The guy in the ticket office said I was no longer valid because I hadn't caught the first train. I pointed out that I had and it hadn't gone anywhere. I think all the Leeds passengers got the 1703, which was hideously overcrowded, but didn't call at Grantham. The guy in the ticket office said my tickets were only valid with his endorsement for the 1719 because it connects with the train to Nottingham. I pointed out that it didn't, the 1733 did. "No, sir, stop, you just need to listen to me. Your train was canceled, you can therefore only use 1 train either side of it. This is the rule you agree to when you buy these tickets. If you have some other journey booked later, that's irrelevant, and you will need to make your own arrangements with East Midlands Trains for that. What you've done is tried to save money, so this is the risk you've taken and now you cannot catch the 1719, only the 1733. Do not get on any other train."

Clearly there's a lot of wibble there, but this is a bizarre attitude. I'm concerned that VTEC, particularly following my previous experience, are not doing anything at all to assist passengers in getting to their destination. In my case arguably Manchester, given I'm now 2 hours late and won't have any time to stay at Nottingham even when I finally get there. Furthermore, it looks like I might miss the last Nottingham to Manchester train. Why are VTEC so poor at arrangements for alternative routes (in this case MML / WCML) when things go wrong? I pointed out at KGX that I might be unable to complete my journey, and was told it was now at East Midlands Trains discretion wether to take me or not. I said that was not the case because the VTEC service had been canceled "I'm afraid that's the risk you take with an Advance ticket." Talk about customer focus! I can't get any disruption information whatsoever for Kings Cross from NRE to check for ticket acceptence.

Update: I am aboard the 1733 and we have now departed.

 

[headshot119]

King's Cross ticket office having a poor attitude to passengers and making up rules as they go along. Doesn't surprise me after my experiences with them.

Get an email off to them, you never know now it's VT they'll probably throw some vouchers your way.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This is why I dont use VTEC, KGX and all who sale in said ECML mothership. Iv also had bad experiences at that booking office, I tend to use STP over the road!

 

[TheBerry]

Unfortunately you have entered into the tricky world of split ticketing so your journey is actually the responsibility of several operators but each operator only has to get you to the destination on their ticket. If one part of your journey is delayed the operator regardless of who it is cannot do much about your second ticket if the journey isn't in one ticket.

The ticket office could have been more helpful however. I'm not sure where this you must travel on this train with endorsement came from, with the developing situation you had it probably wouldn't matter and a word with the train guard would suffice and get you on your way.

The ticket office could have suggested going to Euston and travelling straight to Manchester unless you absolutely have to goto Nottingham. I'm sure there could have been a couple of calls made by someone at VTWC to get you on a Manchester service. Or goto St Pancras and speak to EMT there about getting to Nottingham!

You've fallen foul of split ticketing gone wrong! While it's cheaper at times you can find yourself in very tricky situations like this!

Update; I've checked the journey planner and the EMT service you connect into at Grantham goes to Manchester Piccadilly so you don't have to change at Nottingham.

 

[Hadders]

Unfortunately you have entered into the tricky world of split ticketing so your journey is actually the responsibility of several operators but each operator only has to get you to the destination on their ticket. If one part of your journey is delayed the operator regardless of who it is cannot do much about your second ticket if the journey isn't in one ticket

This is incorrect. The OP's journey is from Kings Cross to Manchester. Condition 19 of The National Rail Conditions of Carriage states:

NRCoC
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey...

 

[TheBerry]

This is incorrect. The OP's journey is from Kings Cross to Manchester. Condition 19 of The National Rail Conditions of Carriage states:

It seems to have quite a break in the journey. He's also dealing with two TOC's so EMT would get him to Nottingham and EMT would have to handle the Manchester leg. Although looking at the planner the EMT train goes to Manchester from Grantham anyway.

Regardless of that the post is more about the handling at KGX and there made up rules.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

 

[Starmill]

At times of disruption, passengers are not to be descriminated against on the basis of operator. Even ATOC themselves say that. So why is it that so many people at VTEC can't get their head around the fact that if their service is the one that's been canceled, they need to make suitable arrangements, not the passenger and not another TOC. It might be all very well insulting me by saying I was 'just trying to save money' or patronising me by explaining the '1 train before and after' rule 3 times as if I fail to understand, but ultimately I have to get back to Manchester one way or the other, so why not take a proactive and helpful approach rather than single mindedly following what you've been told, that I don't think is even mentioned in the NRCoC or Advance Tickets Ts and Cs?

 

[yorkie]

guy in the ticket office said I was no longer valid because I hadn't caught the first train.

So East Coast are claiming that if they cancel your train your ticket is invalid? I'm sure they will apologise and correct themselves, if not it needs to be taken further.

I think all the Leeds passengers got the 1703, which was hideously overcrowded, but didn't call at Grantham.

It called additionally on Grantham. Was this not advertised? If so that's slightly surprising but maybe it was felt to be already overcrowded from London and the intention was to pick people up after the Peterborough crowd had alighted.

The guy in the ticket office said my tickets were only valid with his endorsement ...

He made this up. Be sure to report this so the ticket office manager can investigate and ensure appropriate training is provided.

Your train was canceled, you can therefore only use 1 train either side of it. This is the rule you agree to when you buy these tickets. If you have some other journey booked later, that's irrelevant, and you will need to make your own arrangements with East Midlands Trains for that.

I would have asked him if he reads the East Coast Pricing & Ticketing Updates (PTUs) or is familiar with the Advance Fare FAQs in the iKB.

"I'm afraid that's the risk you take with an Advance ticket."

The 'risk' is not that you may not reach your destination but just that you may do so much later than planned (and compensated appropriately) and in less comfort (ie, by taxi).

If they're claiming there is a 'risk' of being stranded, that needs to be challenged and taken as high up as necessary until the claim is rescinded.

I'm confident a letter to Customer Services will result in a satisfactory outcome, but if not there are options to escalate it.

 

[TheBerry]

At times of disruption, passengers are not to be descriminated against on the basis of operator. Even ATOC themselves say that. So why is it that so many people at VTEC can't get their head around the fact that if their service is the one that's been canceled, they need to make suitable arrangements, not the passenger and not another TOC. It might be all very well insulting me by saying I was 'just trying to save money' or patronising me by explaining the '1 train before and after' rule 3 times as if I fail to understand, but ultimately I have to get back to Manchester one way or the other, so why not take a proactive and helpful approach rather than single mindedly following what you've been told, that I don't think is even mentioned in the NRCoC or Advance Tickets Ts and Cs?

They just needed to be more exhaustive in their suggestions of routing and looking up the timetable. It took me seconds to see there are options for getting to Manchester. I would have challenged the ticket office about routing via Euston or St Pancras.

As I've said the EMT service at Grantham goes to Manchester and there is one after this also.

 

[thealexweb]

Only one train either side of it? This joker XD

 

[Pinza-C55]

I'm currently at Kings Cross, I had an Advance to Nottingham on the 1609 via Grantham. After a short break, I have an Advance to Manchester On EMT. Unfortunately that train was cancelled, and there's a lack of alternatives because of poor connections at Grantham. The platform staff advised to try the 1633 to Leeds, but this was so full and so, so hot I could hardly board, and 10 minutes after its booked departure time the guard announced that we wouldn't be going anywhere.

Update: I am aboard the 1733 and we have now departed.

Welcome to the world of Privatised British Railways. Thank John Major and all those who voted Tory

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only one train either side of it? This joker XD

I'm confused about that, as the 1719 is closer to the time of the original train than the 1733. Can the OP perhaps explain further why the ticket office required him to use a later train?!

 

[yorkie]

I'm confused about that, as the 1719 is closer to the time of the original train than the 1733. Can the OP perhaps explain further why the ticket office required him to use a later train?!

It makes no sense, clearly this person needs to be given some guidance, but their flawed logic appears to be that the train from Grantham departs at 1857, so the train that connects into it would be the 1733 (due Grantham 1841) rather than the 1719 (due Grantham 1828), with the aim being seemingly to minimise waiting time at Grantham.

There's no sensible reason why anyone should do that, and by delaying the arrival into Grantham you increase the risk of a further delay by missing the onward train!

 

[khib70]

Welcome to the world of Privatised British Railways. Thank John Major and all those who voted Tory

Wow, that took a whole 11 posts. I suspect you're too young to have ever dealt with a BR ticket office. Whatever else BR was, it certainly wasn't customer-focused!

 

[DarloRich]

I would have avoided the ticket office and spoken to the train guard. They tend to be much more sensible.

I would send a dispassionate and direct letter of complaint to VTEC. They haven't behaved correctly here.

 

[Geezertronic]

Are the ticket staff VTEC staff or Network Rail staff? Do Network Rail have ticket staff at stations they manage?

 

[Starmill]

The ticket office is run by VTEC. Network Rail do staff the stations they manage in part, but at Kings Cross VTEC and GTR staff mostly run the show.

The most galling thing about it is they're all owned by the same people. Operationally seperate of course, but all 3 of the TOCs who could have helped me out were Stagecoach-owned, with Virgin group having a stake in 2 of them. If anyone were to make a call to look at using EMT or VT, it would have had to be a member of VTEC station staff. Unfortunately this one adopted the ' Not our company, not our problem' approach. I think the 1633 vanished from the screen without ever being shown as canceled, so perhaps he was applying a rule he thought he'd been told to the letter by saying my ticket was no longer valid at all as that train had departed. He clearly didn't know the 1703 was making an additional call. Regardless, conditions onboard were so poor it woild be crazy to suggest that I MUST get on it, having by this point spent an hour baking at the station.
Perhaps I should have insisted on boarding the 1719, the 1733 was late and another 5 minutes migh have seen that connection missed also.