Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)

[61653 HTAFC]

You've missed off a couple of key ones.

Can you not think of one regarding a Liverpool-Blackpool service or one involving a service running ECS through Durham?

The Liverpool to Blackpool service was the one where the engine dropped out, causing a derailment, with some injuries. IIRC the Durham incident was similar (in that case weren't some people on the platforms injured by flying ballast?). Both were mentioned a few posts back and involved 142s.

144s are certainly better than the 142s. I think at higher speeds on good track they aren't actually too bad once they've finished accelerating but only if they don't pass any trains at speed going in the opposite direction!

Being "better than 142s" is hardly a vote of confidence!
The biggest source of discomfort on Pacers is the loud bang when passing other trains at speed, particularly in tunnels. This isn't helped by the bus doors which certainly don't have a seal around them. I do wonder if Porterbrook considered replacing the doors with something a bit more substantial?

 

[Hardcastle]

I travelled on a 142 yesterday from Newcastle to Carlisle apart from the cramped seating the ride was quite good.

 

[yorksrob]

I travelled on a 142 yesterday from Newcastle to Carlisle apart from the cramped seating the ride was quite good.

I was on one on the Little North Western recently. It had the bus seats. Truth be told, it wasn't too bad, although this was helped by the fact that the service, whilst busy, wasn't too crowded.

 

[transmanche]

I travelled on a 142 yesterday from Newcastle to Carlisle apart from the cramped seating the ride was quite good.

But have you tried the same journey on a wet and blustery evening in the middle of winter? I'm sure I have a colander that's less draughty than a Pacer...

 

[Smudger105e]

I have found this photo of the wheelchair ramp on the 144

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If someone could kindly fix my link?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I have found this photo of the wheelchair ramp on the 144
http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p936499201/h4c727df2
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If someone could kindly fix my link?

Nice ramp.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thought I just had, did they explain where all the electrical power was coming from to power all these new gadgets on the demonstrator?

 

[Skutter]

Thought I just had, did they explain where all the electrical power was coming from to power all these new gadgets on the demonstrator?

Gadgets? The PIS won't use much; nor WiFi. Modern LED lighting will use a lot less than the old fluoro units. Is there interior CCTV? The new toilet might be the only thing that actually uses more electricity.

 

[Smudger105e]

Gadgets? The PIS won't use much; nor WiFi. Modern LED lighting will use a lot less than the old fluoro units. Is there interior CCTV? The new toilet might be the only thing that actually uses more electricity.

There is internal CCTV, seven cameras I think, plus forward looking cameras, all recorded on a hard drive.

I tend to agree with Skutter, the total power consumption of the CCTV, WiFi, and new toilet probably comes to less than the power consumption of the old flouro units.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well I thought you had the new LCD screens for playing video which are more than just simple PID displays with a computer to run them. Wi-Fi, internal and external CCTV, call for help buttons, electric door loos, more modern PA including auto-announce, option for at seat sockets.

That all mounts up to a significantly increased power demand.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well I thought you had the new LCD screens for playing video which are more than just simple PID displays with a computer to run them. Wi-Fi, internal and external CCTV, call for help buttons, electric door loos, more modern PA including auto-announce, option for at seat sockets.

That all mounts up to a significantly increased power demand.

With regard to sockets, I'll be pleasantly surprised if that option is taken up across the whole 143/144 fleet. If it isn't, then it isn't an issue for power consumption surely?

Do we know when Northern will be taking delivery of the 'new' 144012? There seemed to be quite a few short-formed services in the West Riding today...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I thought you had the new LCD screens for playing video which are more than just simple PID displays with a computer to run them. Wi-Fi, internal and external CCTV, call for help buttons, electric door loos, more modern PA including auto-announce, option for at seat sockets.

That all mounts up to a significantly increased power demand.

I'd expect that a switch to LED lighting would handle the lot. Computers these days use next to no power (think mobile phones). Same with wifi. The only thing that might is power sockets, but if these are fitted they can be (and usually are) heavily restricted in what they provide - they are only intended for laptops and mobiles which are very low power devices these days.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd expect that a switch to LED lighting would handle the lot. Computers these days use next to no power (think mobile phones). Same with wifi. The only thing that might is power sockets, but if these are fitted they can be (and usually are) heavily restricted in what they provide - they are only intended for laptops and mobiles which are very low power devices these days.

Though you are relying on guards monitoring and making sure no passengers try using other devices on board... I've seen shavers (with adaptors), televisions, and even a toaster being used on Voyagers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though you are relying on guards monitoring and making sure no passengers try using other devices on board...

Erm, no you're not. You simply fuse the outlets at a suitably low value; 1A would probably be entirely sufficient for almost all electronic devices while tripping if you plugged in anything silly like a kettle or toaster. You might even get away with 0.5A (a 50W laptop power supply only draws about 0.3A).

Voyagers are modern units which may well have higher rated sockets. The fuses/breakers will not allow anything to be used that would cause damage; they will simply trip.

Shavers draw next to nothing, so aren't a concern. Same with LCD televisions - even a large screen one will draw little more than a laptop.

Don't be confused by domestic appliances usually having 13A or 3A fuses, or them being referred to as "13A sockets" - that's just because of what the cables are rated to. It has nothing to do with what the appliance draws. The only things in the home these days that draw anything like that much are electric heaters, irons, cookers and similar. Electronics don't. Crikey, my entire home lighting circuit (3x6W LED spots in each room, two sets in the bedroom and a CFL in the loft) draws under 0.5A at 230V if I have all of it switched on, but it's protected using a 6A breaker simply because that's the cable rating, and that's only the case because it's all set up to allow each of those spots to be a 50W GU10. And unless I put the kettle on, the 32A socket ring is probably even less stressed than that.

 

[Smudger105e]

There are no at seat power sockets on the 144e. There are no seat back video screens either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are no at seat power sockets on the 144e. There are no seat back video screens either.

I think he was referring to the overhead PIS, which isn't a basic LED one but appears to be a PC-based TFT LCD one that could display videos if desired (but won't consume any less power if it doesn't).
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Nice ramp.

How does it fold away? It doesn't seem quite obvious.

That does look a seriously high quality job, though. Perhaps even better than the fGW HST interior as the lighting is not of the "dentist's chair" type, but instead classy background lighting with LED spots. I would be more than happy to travel on that.

Only criticism I can think of is the window-side seat being pushed up against the wall rather than having an armrest. Would have been better to drop the centre or aisle side one if one had to go due to width - but Pacers are very wide, so I reckon both could have been accommodated.

 

[Smudger105e]

I think he was referring to the overhead PIS, which isn't a basic LED one but appears to be a PC-based TFT LCD one that could display videos if desired (but won't consume any less power if it doesn't).

Sorry, I misunderstood the posting.

There are 5 of those, 2 each in the centre of the vehicle and one tall one in the end wall of the toilet.

 

[alexl92]

Having just looked at that picture set, I'll be honest, I'm entirely underwhelmed. It just looks like a long-overdue interior refresh with a shiny magic toilet.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The toaster I saw being used on a Voyager might well have been one of those low-power ones for use in caravans and houseboats.

Having just looked at that picture set, I'll be honest, I'm entirely underwhelmed. It just looks like a long-overdue interior refresh with a shiny magic toilet.

You can only polish a t*rd so much... and at the end of the day you just end up with a shiny poo! I think given what they're working with, and the fact that pacers are supposed to be cheap to run, there'd be little point in a complete rebuild... You might as well build new, otherwise. It'd be folly to expect anything more.

 

[ed1971]

It would be interesting to know what the cost would be to give a Pacer unit completely new bodies and the cost of a new DMU such as a 172.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would be interesting to know what the cost would be to give a Pacer unit completely new bodies and the cost of a new DMU such as a 172.

I'm no engineer, but I assume that a new bodyshell would have to meet modern crash regulations, and of course accessibility requirements (even the e144 will require some derogation AIUI). There'd also be the issues of heavy chassis + lightweight bodyshell that became apparent after the Winsford and Lime Street incidents and led some to draw similarities to MK.1 based stock. New bodyshells would have to be designed and built to order as I don't think any manufacturer offers 15m stock at the moment. That wouldn't come cheap and you'd be left with something a fair bit heavier but still powered by a rather asthmatic 25-30 year-old engine... Unless you replaced the engines too, and I don't think there'd be much oomph behind a cat.IV compliant engine small enough to fit under a 15m vehicle. You'd need it to last about 20years to repay the investment so I'd guess that new build would be a better option.

 

[ed1971]

You've missed off a couple of key ones.

Can you not think of one regarding a Liverpool-Blackpool service or one involving a service running ECS through Durham?

Ok, I was thinking more about actual collisions involving Pacers. I should have made it more clear in my original post.

142042 lost an engine at Broad Green on 11 June 2009 when a crankshaft broke causing a derailment.

The incident at Durham was when 142 lost a cardan drive shaft on 10th April 2011. the report is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nt_data/file/410832/120702_R122012_Durham.pdf

It was announced several months back that because of problems with the original SCG final drives, that Angel were going to replace them on all 142s with new Voth drives. Is this going to go ahead now as the units only have another 4 -5 years of service life?

142053 also lost an engine on the Cumbrian Coast around 1995.

I recently read the the Weardale Railway's preserved Class 142 unit, 141103 is under threat of being scrapped as both SCG gearboxes have failed and repairs would be expensive.
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I'm no engineer, but I assume that a new bodyshell would have to meet modern crash regulations, and of course accessibility requirements (even the e144 will require some derogation AIUI). There'd also be the issues of heavy chassis + lightweight bodyshell that became apparent after the Winsford and Lime Street incidents and led some to draw similarities to MK.1 based stock. New bodyshells would have to be designed and built to order as I don't think any manufacturer offers 15m stock at the moment. That wouldn't come cheap and you'd be left with something a fair bit heavier but still powered by a rather asthmatic 25-30 year-old engine... Unless you replaced the engines too, and I don't think there'd be much oomph behind a cat.IV compliant engine small enough to fit under a 15m vehicle. You'd need it to last about 20years to repay the investment so I'd guess that new build would be a better option.

It needs to be remembered that the Cummins LT10R engines fitted to Pacers are a much newer engine (introduced in 1982), than the Cummins NTA855R on Class 15Xs. This must be why LT10Rs are a lot quieter than NTA855Rs They are only around 20 years old as they replaced the original Leyland TL11 engines fitted to Pacers in the mid 1990s. On Pacers, the LT10Rs are derated to 225 HP, but on buses and coaches the LT10 range were rated up to 290 HP, which is just a little higher than the NTA855Rs on 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s which are 285 HP.

The grossly excessively noisy NTA855R appears to date back to the late 1960s and were fitted to Australian and New Zealand DMUs built around 1969. A ride on any DMU fitted with NTA855Rs is very unpleasant, unless there is good sound deadening such as on 158s.

 

[455driver]

I thought the 143 engines were rated at 205hp despite what certain books say!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do any of the other pacer classes have any structural or other issues that would prevent them from having similar work done

 

[northwichcat]

It was announced several months back that because of problems with the original SCG final drives, that Angel were going to replace them on all 142s with new Voth drives. Is this going to go ahead now as the units only have another 4 -5 years of service life?

Yes. Someone worked out that based on a typical annual 142 mileage with Northern the new final drives would only be capable of keeping the units in service until around 2021.
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It would be interesting to know what the cost would be to give a Pacer unit completely new bodies and the cost of a new DMU such as a 172.

The ePacer will cost £350,000 for conversion of a 30m train. Obviously with new bodies as well the cost would be significantly higher.

£90m was paid for LM's 69 x class 172 carriages (23m) so £1.3m per carriage.

ePacers are the cheap option but new trains are the better long term investment.
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I'd expect that a switch to LED lighting would handle the lot. Computers these days use next to no power (think mobile phones). Same with wifi. The only thing that might is power sockets, but if these are fitted they can be (and usually are) heavily restricted in what they provide - they are only intended for laptops and mobiles which are very low power devices these days.

Indeed. In homes in the 1980s a 60W lightbulb was seem as the cheaper more energy efficient lighting option (the alternative was a 100W lightbulb.) Now you can get a 20" TV which uses less than 30W electricity.

 

[D365]

Yes. Someone worked out that based on a typical annual 142 mileage with Northern the new final drives would only be capable of keeping the units in service until around 2021.

Unless a derogation has been approved, surely the 142s will have been withdrawn before then? Seeing as Angel Trains has previously made it known that they won't be refurbishing the type.

 

[northwichcat]

Unless a derogation has been approved, surely the 142s will have been withdrawn before then? Seeing as Angel Trains has previously made it known that they won't be refurbishing the type.

Indeed. The plan is to withdrawn them by December 2019. However, if the cheapest new part available will last 7 years then they have to fit the part that will last 7 years even if they only plan to keep using them for around 5 years.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed. The plan is to withdrawn them by December 2019. However, if the cheapest new part available will last 7 years then they have to fit the part that will last 7 years even if they only plan to keep using them for around 5 years.

The new parts may have a predicted working life of seven years, but improvements in reliability and reduced maintenance presumably will pay for itself within 4. In fact, if it allows more mileage between exams that could shorten the overall life of the parts but allow greater stock availability between now and December 2019...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Speaking of withdrawing of the 142's.

I'd imagine that by December 2017 / May 2018 there'll only be the former ATN 142's on the go as the rest will have been scrapped and/or broken up for spares to keep the other Pacers going until they are finally withdrawn some years later.

 

[northwichcat]

Speaking of withdrawing of the 142's.

I'd imagine that by December 2017 / May 2018 there'll only be the former ATN 142's on the go as the rest will have been scrapped and/or broken up for spares to keep the other Pacers going until they are finally withdrawn some years later.

We can certainly expect the ex-FNW ones with the original bench seating to go first. When FNW chose the 5 worst which they expected to withdraw when the Oldham Loop converted to Metrolink, they didn't include any Merseytravel examples. Likewise when Northern chose the 12 worst to put in to 'warm storage' after receiving some cascaded 158s they didn't include any Merseytravel or ATN examples.