61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I suppose that depends... Compare them with the seats in the centre cars of 158s, and you've every reason to complain... Compared to a Merseytravel 142, it'll feel like first-class!
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Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)
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I suppose that depends... Compare them with the seats in the centre cars of 158s, and you've every reason to complain... Compared to a Merseytravel 142, it'll feel like first-class!
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144e ? Some new seats, fitting PIS, new grab rails, a new toilet and giving it a lick of paint inside and out doesn't fix the key issues - it's poor ride quality, the high levels of noise, poor ventilation and the simple fact that they are a death trap - I'd love to see one go through today's testing procedures - see how long the damn things stay in service then !
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
You're right in many ways... But then if grandfather rights didn't apply, we'd all be in cars or on buses... Therefore far more likely to be killed or seriously injured.
Smudger105e
Member
Exactly. We wouldn't have 37s running, no Mk2s, no 60s etc etc.
I think the problems of the 144's are overstated. Noise and ride quality are decent, and ventilation is better than many newer trains on account of the opening windows.
Really!
How many people have been killed while travelling in a 144 (or 142, 143) and then compare it to your modern car of choice!
With all the safety systems in place on the modern railway I think the Pacers are a quite acceptable way to travel and are still much safer than any road vehicle!
Apart from the Merseyrail abominations.
Agreed. I've ridden on a few Class 144s and I've certainly never thought that they have poor ride quality or are too noisy. On the contrary I quite like travelling on 144s. I think opening windows on a train is a really big plus point - because obviously if you get too hot or cold you can open or close the window respectively. Compare that to travelling on a modern unit without opening windows on a hot day when the air conditioning isn't working - it does get very uncomfortable after a short while!
I'm very much looking forward to riding on 144012 once it has re-entered traffic
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
144s are definitely the least-worst of the Pacers (143s obviously very similar but I've less experience of them. Taunton to Newport on one was a bit far!) and one thing all pacers are good for is the views they afford on scenic rural lines. Particularly the bay of seats in the toilet position in the non-toilet car where the bus door gives an excellent view. I do hope that the e144 still has facing seats in this position, possibly in both cars now as the small toilet has been removed.
Indeed. I'd be interested to hear yours (and other 144 regulars) opinions of the new seating!
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
If they are indeed the same as 377/6s and 387s I only have a short hop from Victoria to Clapham Junction to go on. I didn't think they were too bad for that sort of a journey. Sheffield to Huddersfield is another thing altogether though!
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Noise and ride quality with Pacers varies considerably between lines. A line with a number of sharp bends and farmers crossings provides a poor and extremely noisy ride. The engines on Pacers are less noisy than those on 150s but then they are less powerful and consequently acceleration is poorer.
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There is a such phrase as an accident waiting to happen. How many other classes of train still in operation have had their engines just drop off causing injuries? Pacers are certainly the least safe trains in operation today.
Hopefully going to try and get over to Sheffield again at the end of next month so hopefully it's re-entered traffic by then. I'll have to post a review in this thread once I've managed to have a ride on it
I've noticed that too. I've left Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield (and others too) on a Class 142 and none of them were the same with Lime Street in particular being very noisy with the wheel flange noise. With the Class 150s and Pacers I have to say I agree that the Pacer engines are generally quieter than the 150s - if it wasn't for the wheel flange noise I think the Pacers (apart from the Merseyrail 142s which have extremely poor seating) would be very pleasant to travel on
Sheffield - Huddersfield? Try Leeds - Lancaster.!
So how many deaths have there been in their near-30 years of service ?
Fair play. If it's the Hope Valley, they'll be extatic not to have a Merseyrail!
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
On the first point, I think that's one of the big problems with the Pacer design: they're more suited to rural lines in terms of capacity, speed, and the good views they afford... But whilst there's not that much jointed track left you certainly notice it if you're on a pacer!
As for safety, I'd certainly rather be on something more substantial if I'm ever involved in an accident, but the risks of collision on any train is small and progressively getting smaller. It's also worth noting that both the Lime Street and Winsford collisions, and the engine-drop incidents involved 142s which whilst similar are based on a bus design 15-or-so years older than the 143/4s. The better pacers do seem more prone to self-immolation though!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If it came to it, I would rather travel in *any* current UK rail vehicle than an actual bus.
I've been very fortunate so far this year and I've only had the one Merseyrail Pacer (142054) which gave me dreadful backache after a short journey between Liverpool Lime Street and Earlestown. Personally I prefer the First Great Western refurbished examples which have much better seats
Yes, it's been enjoyable on those occasions when a 142 with FGW dynamic lines upholstery has turned up on my commute! Could pretend I was on holiday in Devon!
We are fortunate that the pacer is operated in a closed environment of the railways - I stand by my statement of them being a death trap. Lightweight body shell based upon a bus designed in the late 60's, fixed to a freight chassis with a few bolts, inside, the drivers compartment has all the protection of a egg box, the passenger interior is full of sharp edges, the seats aren't designed to offer any form of passenger safety with steel handles right where the face hits the seat in front.... To suggest these things are safe just because no one has died in one is simply ludicrous - no one died on trips to the moon, but I doubt anyone would say the missions were safe
Sadly not. The very first of the Moon programme, Apollo 1, saw three fatalities just before launch when fire in the capsule led to the deaths of three astronauts.
I'm well aware of that... Which is why I worded my comment "trips to the moon" rather than the Apollo missions
Class 170101
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The fact there have been no deaths may be down to luck rather than judgement.
Wasn't it a Class 86 that smashed an empty Class 142 on the WCML?
Wasn't it a Class 86 that smashed an empty Class 142 on the WCML?
A number of incidents need to be mentioned with regards to the debate about the safety of Pacers:
(i) Around 2003, a Class 142 collided with a Land Rover Discovery on a level crossing on the Southport line. The Discovery driver was killed, but no one on the 142 suffered any lasting harm.
(ii) I don't know the exact details, but a Class 144 was involved in a collision with a Class 37 locomotive at Skipton. The Class 144 was eventually repaired, but the 37 was scrapped.
(iii) Despite the ongoing concerns of Pacer crash worthiness, it needs to be pointed out that the much newer Class 165 Turbo involved in the Ladbroke Grove crash (165115), didn't stand up well in the crash, as the front carriage was completely destroyed.
(iv) It has already been stated that Pacers have not been involved in any fatalities (except for track trespassers). There has been at least one on a 150 when the driver of a 150/2 was killed in December 1988, when his train derailed at St. Helens Central and collided with a bridge.
(v) The Virgin train involved in the collision with 142008 at Winsford would have had a total weight of around 500 tons. The extensive damage to the Pacer would have therefore been expected. In view of the Ladbroke Grove accident mentioned in (iii), it is therefore debatable if a 165 or any other type of DMU would have come out of this much better.
(i) Around 2003, a Class 142 collided with a Land Rover Discovery on a level crossing on the Southport line. The Discovery driver was killed, but no one on the 142 suffered any lasting harm.
(ii) I don't know the exact details, but a Class 144 was involved in a collision with a Class 37 locomotive at Skipton. The Class 144 was eventually repaired, but the 37 was scrapped.
(iii) Despite the ongoing concerns of Pacer crash worthiness, it needs to be pointed out that the much newer Class 165 Turbo involved in the Ladbroke Grove crash (165115), didn't stand up well in the crash, as the front carriage was completely destroyed.
(iv) It has already been stated that Pacers have not been involved in any fatalities (except for track trespassers). There has been at least one on a 150 when the driver of a 150/2 was killed in December 1988, when his train derailed at St. Helens Central and collided with a bridge.
(v) The Virgin train involved in the collision with 142008 at Winsford would have had a total weight of around 500 tons. The extensive damage to the Pacer would have therefore been expected. In view of the Ladbroke Grove accident mentioned in (iii), it is therefore debatable if a 165 or any other type of DMU would have come out of this much better.
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
It was an 87, at Winsford. Had it been a 143/4 rather than a 142 I would guess the end result would have been similar. I agree with the sentiment about luck rather than judgement, but I think describing the Pacer as a death trap is perhaps a little over-dramatic.
If we just go by the body-count though, that would suggest that 142s are safer than Pendolinos! I would hope that nobody would actually try to make that case in seriousness though...
Yes, it was 87027, the HSE report into the Winsford crash is here:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HSE_Winsford1999.pdf
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HSE_Winsford1999.pdf
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
You've missed off a couple of key ones.
Can you not think of one regarding a Liverpool-Blackpool service or one involving a service running ECS through Durham?
samuelmorris
Established Member
Took my first ever ride on a pacer yesterday 
Being a 144 with Richmond seating though, I gather it's one of the better examples. Generally speaking it seemed fine unless moving across points, or on jointed track, up to around maybe 40mph. Above 40 though it really did feel like a 'runaway train' leaping around all over the place. I can't imagine that's much fun on the bus seating they used to have.
Being a 144 with Richmond seating though, I gather it's one of the better examples. Generally speaking it seemed fine unless moving across points, or on jointed track, up to around maybe 40mph. Above 40 though it really did feel like a 'runaway train' leaping around all over the place. I can't imagine that's much fun on the bus seating they used to have.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Took my first ever ride on a pacer yesterday
Being a 144 with Richmond seating though, I gather it's one of the better examples. Generally speaking it seemed fine unless moving across points, or on jointed track, up to around maybe 40mph. Above 40 though it really did feel like a 'runaway train' leaping around all over the place. I can't imagine that's much fun on the bus seating they used to have.
144s are certainly better than the 142s. I think at higher speeds on good track they aren't actually too bad once they've finished accelerating but only if they don't pass any trains at speed going in the opposite direction!
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