Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)

[61653 HTAFC]

It looks alright... And that's really the best anyone could ask. I don't like the blue "smile" on the front though, it looks like they got Ray Stenning drunk and then left him unsupervised! It also appears that there's no longer any bays of 4 facing seats... Which isn't great for families travelling on weekends for example.

 

[Smudger105e]

It also appears that there's no longer any bays of 4 facing seats...

There are, but not many. Look on the left in photo 2...

 

[455driver]

It also appears that there's no longer any bays of 4 facing seats... Which isn't great for families travelling on weekends for example.

Which is a good thing because it will stop the scruffy <add own word of choice > putting their feet up on the seat opposite.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There are, but not many. Look on the left in photo 2...

There are less anyway since the last refresh, at least on the 3-car sets which now have all seats facing the same way on each side.

Which is a good thing because it will stop the scruffy <add own word of choice > putting their feet up on the seat opposite.

True... There's two sides to everything!

I'm currently on board the 1650 Wakefield Kirkgate to Huddersfield, and it's full and standing in a 2-car 144... Which begs the question, where will the e-144s actually be suitable for? It would be fine in the early afternoon on this route, but if an early-peak service is full and standing it doesn't bode well.

 

[yorksrob]

When some of the 142's are withdrawn, my thought is that the former 142 units could be stripped down and rebuilt so that it could form a four car Pacer.

I'm not convinced there's much point in refurbing a lot of the 142's. Perhaps they could rebuild some of the better examples into 144 centre cars - now they would need new seating!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not convinced there's much point in refurbing a lot of the 142's. Perhaps they could rebuild some of the better examples into 144 centre cars - now they would need new seating!

Ten of the 144s already have centre cars, so you'd need only 13 vehicles (and around another 13 to do the 143s). Removing the cab and rebuilding suitable for a gangway wouldn't be easy though, I'd have thought. You'd also end up with fewer doors on one side than the other.

 

[fgwrich]

I'm currently on board the 1650 Wakefield Kirkgate to Huddersfield, and it's full and standing in a 2-car 144... Which begs the question, where will the e-144s actually be suitable for? It would be fine in the early afternoon on this route, but if an early-peak service is full and standing it doesn't bode well.

Welcome to the future unfortunately - It's the same situation down here with 150219 as well. Just as well they're promising 2x150/2 on the Devon Metro...

To be honest, it's more of a refresh than the totally new Pacer promised, which is no surprise (and not so much of a bad thing being a 144), New ATD Seats, New toilet, New Ceiling panels + Visual information screen and a repaint.

Those new ceiling panels look a bit out of place, as if it's read for air con. But this is a pacer, and they're not getting AC, right?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I'm not convinced there's much point in refurbing a lot of the 142's. Perhaps they could rebuild some of the better examples into 144 centre cars - now they would need new seating!

The better examples would be the former ATN 142's, spares can come from the God awful former FNW and Miseryrail units.

Same for the 150's as both the /1s and /2s can be reformed into a four car unit, and if done right it would look like a brand new unit.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

I'd rather walk than use a ATN or Miseryside Pacer

 

[158722]

I'm not convinced there's much point in refurbing a lot of the 142's. Perhaps they could rebuild some of the better examples into 144 centre cars - now they would need new seating!

Given the announcement yesterday regarding NR's 38 billion quid investment plan being somewhat delayed/suspended or whatever, I would be looking more towards the soon to be replaced 313 and 315 fleets - over 100 units - rather than the 142 fleet. These EMUs won't have a use or any overhead wires/3rd rail to work from by 2018/19ish, so why not just rebuild them with a diesel power rack in place of the electric gubbins and get another 10-15 years use out of them until the wires do go up, at which point they could be displaced by other EMUs. A far better option than the D78s and 142 refurbishment for filling the gaping hole in non-electric train capacity for CP5 and into CP6...

 

[route:oxford]

Photos from @PaulBigland1 Twitter

I'm confused.

My interpretation was that something that would be done about the double step to board. How is the double step acceptable for access for people with mobilty issues?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm confused.

My interpretation was that something that would be done about the double step to board. How is the double step acceptable for access for people with mobilty issues?

You can't put a wheelchair on board without a ramp on any stock, so I'm not sure why the step would in and of itself be an issue any more than it is on a Pendolino (the folding step is not at the same level as the floor).

 

[507021]

I really do like that I have to say - it certainly looks to be a real improvement on the 144s that I've ridden on previously in my opinion. My only complaint about it is the bizarre lack of luggage racks which I think is a poor omission from the refurbishment. Hopefully if the remaining 144s end up being refurbished to this standard then overhead luggage racks are included

 

[CapitalStar378]

Porterbrook are really trying to get blood out of a stone with this refresh. As this is only a cosmetic exercise I assume that all the actual problems associated with Pacers will be extant.

This makes the D-Train look like the far better option for many routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Porterbrook are really trying to get blood out of a stone with this refresh. As this is only a cosmetic exercise I assume that all the actual problems associated with Pacers will be extant.

It's a heavy refurb plus legally-required accessibility mods. I don't think it claimed to be anything else.

This makes the D-Train look like the far better option for many routes.

It may well do - though I am of course known for not being opposed to the D-train.

 

[WatcherZero]

You can't put a wheelchair on board without a ramp on any stock, so I'm not sure why the step would in and of itself be an issue any more than it is on a Pendolino (the folding step is not at the same level as the floor).

It is still a breach, not just for wheelchairs but other people of limited mobility who don't need ramps. They will have to request a derogation for it though it was one of the main issues flagged up for 2020 compliance Pacer incompatibility, they cant lower the cars because of the non-bogied arrangement.

 

[route:oxford]

You can't put a wheelchair on board without a ramp on any stock.

This isn't true.

There was a chap in front of me at T5 on Wednesday and he just rolled on and off the 360 again at Heathrow Central with neither a ramp nor assistance.

 

[yorksrob]

Given the announcement yesterday regarding NR's 38 billion quid investment plan being somewhat delayed/suspended or whatever, I would be looking more towards the soon to be replaced 313 and 315 fleets - over 100 units - rather than the 142 fleet. These EMUs won't have a use or any overhead wires/3rd rail to work from by 2018/19ish, so why not just rebuild them with a diesel power rack in place of the electric gubbins and get another 10-15 years use out of them until the wires do go up, at which point they could be displaced by other EMUs. A far better option than the D78s and 142 refurbishment for filling the gaping hole in non-electric train capacity for CP5 and into CP6...

If it's possible, it would certainly be preferable to trying to resuscitate the 142's.
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I really do like that I have to say - it certainly looks to be a real improvement on the 144s that I've ridden on previously in my opinion. My only complaint about it is the bizarre lack of luggage racks which I think is a poor omission from the refurbishment. Hopefully if the remaining 144s end up being refurbished to this standard then overhead luggage racks are included

The seats look thinner than those on the 144's currently. Agree about the luggage racks though.

 

[455driver]

Just as well they're promising 2x150/2 on the Devon Metro..

Its a pity that wont fit on some of the stations making them local door only, slowing the passenger loading considerably, then the crew get a 'please explain' as to why the train is late.

Sorry for going OT on a Pacer thread.

 

[edwin_m]

There was a chap in front of me at T5 on Wednesday and he just rolled on and off the 360 again at Heathrow Central with neither a ramp nor assistance.

The Heathrow stations, plus the Hex platforms at Paddington and some on London Overground, are set at about 1.1m above top of rail to be level with the floor on the units, compared with 0.914m for standard platforms. This is a real benefit for wheely luggage and pushchairs as well as wheelchairs. Unfortunately it isn't possible on platforms that are passed by freight trains, unless the platform is set back so far that it would create a dangerous horizontal gap.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With yesterday's announcements about electrification "pauses", the need for pacers (and indeed D-78s) well into the 2020s is looking more likely. As a result there's suddenly going to be a much more promising business case for both. I'd even be expecting a revision of the ITT for the new Northern franchise, with the scrapping of the "no Pacers" condition.

As for the step entrance, the example given of 360s on Heathrow Connect (a much more modern operation, with far less variation of stock than most areas where pacers operate) is not really comparable. In an ideal world we'd have level access at every station in the land, but whether that will ever happen is another thing altogether.

 

[crehld]

The seats look thinner than those on the 144's currently. Agree about the luggage racks though.

They look like the and sort used on some Southern 377s. If so they're surprisingly comfortable! They're a lot thinner than the current 144 seats, so here's hoping that translates into more leg room!

 

[yorksrob]

They look like the and sort used on some Southern 377s. If so they're surprisingly comfortable! They're a lot thinner than the current 144 seats, so here's hoping that translates into more leg room!

Ah yes, there is the legroom factor. Were it not for that, I think the current seating would be pretty good.

 

[Smudger105e]

I'm confused.

My interpretation was that something that would be done about the double step to board. How is the double step acceptable for access for people with mobilty issues?

At some doors there is a plate which lifts and sort of latches over the top step and that forms a ramp.

I will try to get a photo of it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At some doors there is a plate which lifts and sort of latches over the top step and that forms a ramp.

I will try to get a photo of it.

Sounds a bit like the ramps on low-floor buses... Which is rather appropriate when you think about it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With yesterday's announcements about electrification "pauses", the need for pacers (and indeed D-78s) well into the 2020s is looking more likely. As a result there's suddenly going to be a much more promising business case for both. I'd even be expecting a revision of the ITT for the new Northern franchise, with the scrapping of the "no Pacers" condition.

So, are you saying that Angel Trains will be "forced to re-consider" the decision that they made concerning all their Class 142 Pacers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is still a breach, not just for wheelchairs but other people of limited mobility who don't need ramps. They will have to request a derogation for it though it was one of the main issues flagged up for 2020 compliance Pacer incompatibility, they cant lower the cars because of the non-bogied arrangement.

Is it a breach on the Pendolino as well?

 

[RobShipway]

In the same way that the Eurostar trains have steps that come out for the French/Belgium stations, there should be a button both on the inside and outside of a train where a ramp comes out for use of both wheelchair people and people with difficulty in walking.

 

[47802]

With yesterday's announcements about electrification "pauses", the need for pacers (and indeed D-78s) well into the 2020s is looking more likely. As a result there's suddenly going to be a much more promising business case for both. I'd even be expecting a revision of the ITT for the new Northern franchise, with the scrapping of the "no Pacers" condition.

.

Yes some doom merchants keep saying this but isn't it the case that for both Northern and TPX it was to be assumed that TPX electrification wouldn't be completed during the franchise period so I don't see that a great deal has changed.

Then people go on about Scotrail not getting HST's on time, with resultant cascade knock on well perhaps their might be a slight delay, but I'm sure that the ordered Bi-mode IEP fleet and South West AT-300 fleet which as far as I can see the government and FGW has every intention of going ahead with should release HST's not too far out of the original time frame.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So, are you saying that Angel Trains will be "forced to re-consider" the decision that they made concerning all their Class 142 Pacers?

I have no insider knowledge, but I'd say that the odds of "Newton Heath's Finest" still rattling around the North in ten years time are now considerably shorter than they were a week ago!