Bombardier win London Overground contract for 45 EMUs

[CapitalStar378]

TRANSPORT FOR LONDON has awarded a contract with a capital value of around £260 million to Bombardier Transportation to build at least 45 more Overground trains in Derby.

The award is provisional, and is expected to be confirmed after the normal 10-day standstill period.

Bombardier built the first fleet of Class 378 units for London Overground after 2007, and all 57 are currently being strengthened to five cars, having originally been built as three and then extended to four as passenger demand grew.

The 45 new trains will operate on the Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford routes, which became part of the Overground network on 31 May. They will be also be used between Romford and Upminster and on the Gospel Oak to Barking line, after that route has been electrified in 2017.

The new rolling stock is expected to be similar to the original fleet, with walk-through interiors, air-conditioning and improved accessibility.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2015/06/19-bombardier-wins-contract-to-build.html

Thought this might happen! TfL only use Bombardier it seems. No mention of what train it will be, guess Aventra.

 

[Via Bank]

Will be interesting to see if they will be built with gangways between units. TfL seem quite keen on being able to walk through the full length of the train, but the Capitalstars, and the other set of Aventras being built for Crossrail, don't have these.

 

[DarloRich]

wont they just be more capital stars to help with fleet interchangeability?

 

[Domh245]

As far as I'm aware, there is no intention for the existing fleet (ELL, WLL, NLL) to work with the new fleet (DC, WA, GOBLIN), so they don't need to be 378s clones. I suspect it will be a bit like the 377/1-5 and the 377/6-7 where it is recognisable as the same family, with quite a few common parts (HVAC, bogies, underframe equipment, TMS) but with enough differences to prevent interworking.

 

[Via Bank]

I also doubt Bombardier will be taking more orders for original Electrostars. Given the timetable for introduction, a fleet of Aventras seems far more likely.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Will be interesting to see if they will be built with gangways between units. TfL seem quite keen on being able to walk through the full length of the train, but the Capitalstars, and the other set of Aventras being built for Crossrail, don't have these.

I'm pretty sure Capitalstars do and Aventras will have walk through gangways.....The Aventra trains will be a single unit train anyway.

 

[fgwrich]

I also doubt Bombardier will be taking more orders for original Electrostars. Given the timetable for introduction, a fleet of Aventras seems far more likely.

That's said, I'm sure they'll be some interchangeable parts - the renderings of the new Aventra appears to be a 378 body on roller skate Voyager bogies with a new cab. Knowing Bombarider, it'll be the same traction package as the 387s too.

So TfL still lining the pockets of the French Canadians then, or as Bombardier was a member of the original Metronet PPP, the other way around?

 

[tsr]

I'm pretty sure Capitalstars do and Aventras will have walk through gangways.....The Aventra trains will be a single unit train anyway.

They both have gangways of some sort between coaches, but the real issue is being able to walk between units which are coupled together. Capitalstars certainly would not allow passengers to do this (in their current form).

 

[Bletchleyite]

They both have gangways of some sort between coaches, but the real issue is being able to walk between units which are coupled together.

LO as it is at present does not run units in multiple, does it? So that is not an issue.

 

[Loki]

Oh, for **** sake.... Can we at least try the CAFs and Hitachis? At least please make these trains be Aventras.

 

[tsr]

LO as it is at present does not run units in multiple, does it? So that is not an issue.

Not with their newer stock, but I was trying to clarify, as they do on their new routes with older stock.

 

[hwl]

Oh, for **** sake.... Can we at least try the CAFs and Hitachis? At least please make these trains be Aventras.

Scotland are trying out Hitachis...

Bombardier will already have the "new" maintenance facilities at Ilford for Crossrail (Aventra) so it would be difficult to put a sensible bid on the table to compete with that.

The 5th Car for 378 and the remaining 387s are meant to be the last Electrostars.

 

[DarloRich]

Oh, for **** sake.... Can we at least try the CAFs and Hitachis? At least please make these trains be Aventras.

or perhaps the CAF or Hitatchi bid failed to win a competitive tender.

 

[Class377/5]

LO as it is at present does not run units in multiple, does it? So that is not an issue.

London Overground does indeed work in multiple and had since May. Don't forget the new LO lines out of Liverpool Street are 8 cars .

New units will be four cars and do attachments as was specified in the ITT.

 

[jopsuk]

The LO West Anglia 315s don't have inter-unit gangways (they do have intra-unit ones) and it is common for 317 inter-unit gangways to be locked off.

As the press release says, six of the units will be to strengthen other routes (from other news stories, this will be the South London Line mainly). They won't though have to work in multiple with the existing units. I'd place good money on part of the option for more carriages (previous documents have said 219! Bear in mind this order is for 180...) will be exercised for at least those six.

Assuming Enfield/Chesunt, Chignford, GOBLIN and Rominister stay as 4-car (x2 for some) operations and the six for the SLL are extended, the option then allows for a further 42-53 units (5 or 4 car) to be ordered without a further tendering process. Which is a big fleet. Plucking a fleet at random, the Southern 455 fleet is 46 strong.

 

[Chris125]

As the press release says, six of the units will be to strengthen other routes (from other news stories, this will be the South London Line mainly)

Those 6 units are for the Watford DC route, releasing 5-car 378s to the NLL/ELL.

 

[hwl]

The LO West Anglia 315s don't have inter-unit gangways (they do have intra-unit ones) and it is common for 317 inter-unit gangways to be locked off.

As the press release says, six of the units will be to strengthen other routes (from other news stories, this will be the South London Line mainly). They won't though have to work in multiple with the existing units. I'd place good money on part of the option for more carriages (previous documents have said 219! Bear in mind this order is for 180...) will be exercised for at least those six.

Assuming Enfield/Chesunt, Chignford, GOBLIN and Rominister stay as 4-car (x2 for some) operations and the six for the SLL are extended, the option then allows for a further 42-53 units (5 or 4 car) to be ordered without a further tendering process. Which is a big fleet. Plucking a fleet at random, the Southern 455 fleet is 46 strong.

Is the option for that number extra or is that the total order size including options?
So if total order size 249 car inc options - 180 firm orders (45x 4car) = 69 cars left as options so 14-17 units (5 or 4 car)

TfL have a number of schemes within the Overground envelope they are looking at in terms of the options:
Extra units listed for
(a) Barking Riverside
(b) Stratford – Angel Road
(c) four tph Euston – Watford, five tph Gospel Oak – Barking.
for which 14-17 units sounds about right?


As the utilisation of the Southern 455 fleet will drop below 50% by the end of the TSGN management contract would wouldn't read too much into those numbers.

TfL Board paper here:
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/fpc-20150617-item16-part-1-lotrain.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those 6 units are for the Watford DC route, releasing 5-car 378s to the NLL/ELL.

Reducing the DC line back to 4-car? That'll be popular; it should be 6.

 

[jopsuk]

Those 6 units are for the Watford DC route, releasing 5-car 378s to the NLL/ELL.

Ah, OK- but as said, why only 4-car for that? It can easily take 5 and potentially 6.

Hadn't really thought through either that it can be operated with just six units. That 3tph really is rather low for a "metro" service, even with the interworking with the Bakerloo.

 

[Mikey C]

What will be interesting is the seating layout for these trains, as the 315/317s and GOBLIN 172s all have high density 'conventional seating as opposed to the 378s which are optimised to maximise standing room.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What will be interesting is the seating layout for these trains, as the 315/317s and GOBLIN 172s all have high density 'conventional seating as opposed to the 378s which are optimised to maximise standing room.

I'd expect side-facing. The 172s are only "conventionally" seated because they are only temporary measures and as such can, if seated conventionally, go to another TOC with no modifications.

 

[Mikey C]

I'd expect side-facing. The 172s are only "conventionally" seated because they are only temporary measures and as such can, if seated conventionally, go to another TOC with no modifications.

To me the Liverpool Street lines are conventional suburban commuter lines, and unlike the 'orbital' lines have a decent platform length, so surely don't need the sideways seating to cram everyone in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the Liverpool Street lines are conventional suburban commuter lines, and unlike the 'orbital' lines have a decent platform length, so surely don't need the sideways seating to cram everyone in?

Fair point, but I just can't see LO not just standardising.

 

[hwl]

Ah, OK- but as said, why only 4-car for that? It can easily take 5 and potentially 6.

Hadn't really thought through either that it can be operated with just six units. That 3tph really is rather low for a "metro" service, even with the interworking with the Bakerloo.

They are looking at moving to 4tph which is what some of the options are for...

Have any 5car services run on the Watford route yet? (I though all ELL and some NLL so far?)

 

[Busaholic]

As the press release says, six of the units will be to strengthen other routes (from other news stories, this will be the South London Line mainly).

Has Boris relented - will the SLL re-appear? Given all the problems at London Bridge I'd have thought it most unlikely.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Reducing the DC line back to 4-car? That'll be popular; it should be 6.

Most DC line trains are 4-car, and at 3tph that's 12cph. If they were 5 car it would be 15cph. If you have 4-car 4tph, that's 16cph, so more capacity.

I can't say I've ever seen especially busy DC line trains - the problematic bits are Euston to Queens Park and Harrow to Watford - all the rest is duplicated by the Bakerloo with longer, more frequent trains.

 

[Chris125]

Ah, OK- but as said, why only 4-car for that? It can easily take 5 and potentially 6.

If the extra capacity isn't needed then it's an unnecessary cost - I imagine they will also want to operate the Watford DC and Gospel Oak-Barking services from the same pool of 4-car units, maintained at Willesden depot.

I can't say I've ever seen especially busy DC line trains - the problematic bits are Euston to Queens Park and Harrow to Watford - all the rest is duplicated by the Bakerloo with longer, more frequent trains.

I'd agree with that, and with the Croxley Rail Link and Euston rebuild to come I doubt longer trains or higher frequencies will be a priority for some time to come.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

Something that doesn't seem to have been announced- where will the depot be? Ilford? Somewhere else? With most modern new fleets the maintenance depot tends to be part of the contract.

 

[Via Bank]

I'd expect side-facing. The 172s are only "conventionally" seated because they are only temporary measures and as such can, if seated conventionally, go to another TOC with no modifications.

A Twitter "ask the manager" thing recently indicated that they were thinking of the S8 mode of seating, ie mix of longitudinal and transverse, for the new stock.

 

[argonaut56d]

I am a driver for LO at Watford.

IMHO, I don't see a need for any longer than 4 cars north of Harrow. Not enough people to warrant it. Maybe 4tph though, but would have to work that in with the Bakerloos as well.

The reason, that we have been told, why we won't retain 5 cars (none used yet either BTW) on the DC, is that the DC does not output enough power as 5 car units draw loads more power for some reason over the 4 car units? That's why it's planned for the extra new 4 cars to come on the DC. Not sure what will happen in the intervening 2 years till we get the new trains? maybe the power draw can be downgraded with a software patch? And Bombardier haven't been the best in rolling out the patches! Sure us drivers will be last to be informed!

The Watford to Barking route has been discussed many times. Am sure lots of people would welcome it, but it would be a bit of a nightmare for planning.

When we ran Watford to Stratford a few years ago, when Hampstead tunnel was lowered, we went down to South Hampstead, up Primrose Hill and joined NLL at Camden. That's 2 stops past Gospel Oak! We could go down to Willesden, up the new line and join NLL there. But then what would happen to punters south of Willesden? And in rush hour, how many trains on the NLL now? 7-8 per hour? And they are looking to increase that as well. Takes around 5 mins for us to get clear of the new lines as its 15mph over 2 sets of points. Causing delays to the NLL trains.

Another possible that I have heard rumoured, is to open up an old side terminal stop at Camden Road and run a service down the DC and into Camden instead of Euston. Maybe that's on the agenda for when we get kicked out of Euston?

Interesting times...

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