Confusing fares for new LO lines

[Alan White]

it is very easy for TfL to tell whether someone went that way through records of touches when transferring between Hammersmith (Met) and Hammersmith (District).

And between White City and Wood Lane. Yes, I made that point to TfL.

I guess you didn't speak to London Travelwatch?

I didn't, because I'd not heard of it until now. It's interesting that its geographical area extends to such London suburbs as Virginia Water and Bicester .

 

[transmanche]

... such as the zoning fiddles around Shoreditch ELL...

I've never bought the claim that Shoreditch High Street LO being in Z1 is a fiddle.

If anything, it was a fiddle that Shoreditch LU was ever in Z2. If you look at this old map from 1999 (when there were still bus zones), you can see that the zone boundary has a massive bulge in it to keep Shoreditch LU in Z2. The area around Shoreditch High St LO is very much Z1 territory - the Z1/Z2 boundary was just north of where Hoxton LO is today.

 

[leytongabriel]

I've never bought the claim that Shoreditch High Street LO being in Z1 is a fiddle.

If anything, it was a fiddle that Shoreditch LU was ever in Z2. If you look at this old map from 1999 (when there were still bus zones), you can see that the zone boundary has a massive bulge in it to keep Shoreditch LU in Z2. The area around Shoreditch High St LO is very much Z1 territory - the Z1/Z2 boundary was just north of where Hoxton LO is today.

Not a fiddle perhaps but in my view a big detterent to local use. Look at the overground ridership figures and you'll see that the one area that has had perhaps the least impressive growth has been the ELL extension through Shoreditch, the bit that cost the most in terms of infrastructure investment. So now there's no fincancial incentive for Z1 workers to use Shoreditch rather than Liverpool St, for Z2 residents the bus is half the price down from Dalston or for those coming in from Z3 it's better to go via Statford and the Jubilee line or Whitechapel and the District / H&C to connect with the Overground going south of the river. Rather takes the point away of having orbital services to reduce journeys through the centre.

If Shoreditch was on the Z1/2 boundary for buses and the overground there would be a loss of Z1 revenue but the the extra numbers enjoying the Z2 through fare might compensate and at least there would be more usage to justify the investment. Dalston Junction terminators are pretty lightly used north of Whitechapel.

 

[MikeWh]

If Shoreditch was on the Z1/2 boundary for buses and the overground there would be a loss of Z1 revenue but the the extra numbers enjoying the Z2 through fare might compensate and at least there would be more usage to justify the investment. Dalston Junction terminators are pretty lightly used north of Whitechapel.

Fortunately there are no longer any zones for buses. If Shoreditch High Street was on the Z1/2 boundary then there would be a massive increase in use by commuters from South London working in the City. It would not be balanced out by increased zone 2 through fares. In fact, forget 5 car trains, you'd need 10-12 car trains to cope with the extra demand.

 

[island]

I never did find out why the fare from Shoreditch High Street to New Cross is different to the fare to New Cross Gate.

 

[maniacmartin]

I can assure you from commuting that way in the past that Shoreditch High St has lots of commuter use. The trains can be rather full around peak time.

 

[button_boxer]

I can assure you from commuting that way in the past that Shoreditch High St has lots of commuter use. The trains can be rather full around peak time.

... and would be packed solid and leaving people behind if the station were counted as zone 2!

 

[plcd1]

I never did find out why the fare from Shoreditch High Street to New Cross is different to the fare to New Cross Gate.

The answer is that they are on different tariffs. New Cross to SHS is charged on the NR tariff. New Cross Gate to SDC is charged on the TfL Tariff.

Goodness knows why there are different applicable tariffs - makes zero sense to me. Even more bizarrely New Cross has two entries in the TfL single fares finder while New Cross Gate only has one. Looks to me like a bit of a cock up unless someone better understands the applicability criteria for which tariff applies where. The charging is certainly out of step with the "red / green" tariff map that shows what tariff applies where. According to the map both of the journeys should be on the TfL tariff if a direct Overground train is used.
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If Shoreditch was on the Z1/2 boundary for buses and the overground there would be a loss of Z1 revenue but the the extra numbers enjoying the Z2 through fare might compensate and at least there would be more usage to justify the investment. Dalston Junction terminators are pretty lightly used north of Whitechapel.

TfL would also be sending a nice big cheque to South Eastern and Southern given the Mayor and TfL were strong armed by the Dft into pricing SDC in Zone 1 to avoid revenue abstraction from those franchises. Even if we have a change of Mayor who is more sympathetic to fine tuning the zones some stations are in they face having to unravel all these agreements that have been forced on to TfL.

It's shame they can't organise things so that entry and exit at SDC is charged as for Zone 1 but through passengers only require a ticket covering zone 2. There'd still be a drop in revenue but less risk of abstraction for those wanting to alight in Zone 1.

 

[island]

I understand that certain journeys on the "East London line" which pass through SDC are only charged as zone 2. No idea which ones though.

 

[MikeWh]

I understand that certain journeys on the "East London line" which pass through SDC are only charged as zone 2. No idea which ones though.

Clapham Junction to Cannonbury or Highbury & Islington is one such example, along with any other opportunities which can reasonably be expected to go either way round the circle.

 

[RJ]

I've never bought the claim that Shoreditch High Street LO being in Z1 is a fiddle.

If anything, it was a fiddle that Shoreditch LU was ever in Z2. If you look at this old map from 1999 (when there were still bus zones), you can see that the zone boundary has a massive bulge in it to keep Shoreditch LU in Z2. The area around Shoreditch High St LO is very much Z1 territory - the Z1/Z2 boundary was just north of where Hoxton LO is today.

I wasn't referring to Shoreditch HS being in Zone 1 as a fiddle - but rather some local ELL Oyster fares to and passing through this Zone 1 station being priced as Zone 1 only. I say it's a fiddle as with the other examples I gave, it doesn't comply with the published tariffs.

 

[transmanche]

I wasn't referring to Shoreditch HS being in Zone 1 as a fiddle - but rather some local ELL Oyster fares to and passing through this Zone 1 station being priced as Zone 2 only. I say it's a fiddle as with the other examples I gave, it doesn't comply with the published tariffs.

Ah, fair doos. (That wasn't clear to me.)

 

[JonathanH]

I understand that certain journeys on the "East London line" which pass through SDC are only charged as zone 2. No idea which ones though.

Is that true - Whitechapel to Hoxton requires touching on the pink reader at Stratford for the "not via zone 1" fare to apply. I can't imagine anyone would make that journey - Whitechapel -> Mile End -> Stratford -> Canonbury -> Hoxton.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-pay...l+Station&ToId=910GHOXTON&PassengerType=Adult

New Cross to Hackney Wick requires a touch on the pink reader at Stratford for the "not via zone 1" fare to apply.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-pay...+Station&ToId=910GHACKNYW&PassengerType=Adult

However, New Cross to Stratford doesn't require the pink reader at Canada Water / Whitechapel / barriers at Shadwell for the "not via zone 1" fare so could technically be done via Shoreditch High Street without penalty for zone 1 when travelling pay as you go (as could travelling via Canada Water / London Bridge / Bank if you really wanted to).

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-pay...ail+Station&ToId=910GSTFD&PassengerType=Adult

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe Hoxton to Shoreditch, and Haggerston to Shoreditch both have a local easement whereby Zone 2 fares will be charged

 

[MikeWh]

I believe Hoxton to Shoreditch, and Haggerston to Shoreditch both have a local easement whereby Zone 2 fares will be charged

According to the single fare finder they are both classed as TfL zone 1 fares. For Hoxton this is of course correct as it is a zone 1/2 station. Haggerston is among a number of stations in zone 2 where a fare to just inside zone 1 is charged as zone 1 only rather than zone 1-2.

 

[Be3G]

There's a new-ish development in the tale of confusing LO fares – I've just been reading TfL's press release from last week hailing their takeover of the ex-GA lines, and I noticed this interesting paragraph some way down:

Today's announcement demonstrates the potential benefits for passengers of integrating London's fares and the Mayor is again calling on the Government to enable a single set of fares for London, regardless of train operator. The current situation where fares from neighbouring stations can differ significantly must change with the different fare scales collapsed into one so all passengers are charged at the lower level set by the Mayor.

That's the first I've heard/read of such an ambition, but I'm glad it's being considered; it would certainly make Oyster fares much less confusing.

 

[Envy123]

There's a new-ish development in the tale of confusing LO fares – I've just been reading TfL's press release from last week hailing their takeover of the ex-GA lines, and I noticed this interesting paragraph some way down:



That's the first I've heard/read of such an ambition, but I'm glad it's being considered; it would certainly make Oyster fares much less confusing.

I'm glad too.

There are cases when a red-route NR station is close to a tube station and the fares are miles apart, even though they're in the same zone. It would remove that fares disparity.

 

[AndyNLondon]

What of cases where the NR fare is cheaper than the tube, though? If you're in zones 3 or 4 and have a choice of an NR-only or tube-only route into zone 1, the NR-only route is cheaper then the tube on Oyster PAYG (for zones 1-3 the peak fares are both £3.30 & off-peak is £2.40 vs £2.80, for zones 1-4 peak is £3.80 vs £3.90 & off-peak is £2.70 vs £2.80.)
Is a "16.7% hike" (as the headlines would no doubt describe an increase from £2.40 to £2.80) justified in the name of simplification?

 

[plcd1]

There's a new-ish development in the tale of confusing LO fares – I've just been reading TfL's press release from last week hailing their takeover of the ex-GA lines, and I noticed this interesting paragraph some way down:

That's the first I've heard/read of such an ambition, but I'm glad it's being considered; it would certainly make Oyster fares much less confusing.

A related aspect to this featured in the London Assembly's Transport Cttee meeting last week. The session was largely devoted to Rail in London and plans for more devolution. The meeting had two sessions with invited guests. In the second one there was more discussion about devolution and the issue about TfL fares being cheaper came up (largely for travel to Z1 because there's no Z1 add on fare on the TfL tariff).

Michael Roberts of ATOC said that there was no reason to devolve services just to remove the add on fare. He said the issue of removing the add on and getting full or much closer alignment with the TfL tariff for services south of the Thames was being looked at. It would be similar to the way in which the FGW line out of Paddington is treated as far as West Drayton. This came as something as a surprise to me but perhaps the far greater use of the TfL tariff on NR north of the Thames has thrown up discontent about VFM for South London passengers? The DfT, TfL and Rail Delivery Group are discussing the matter with a key factor being the financial cost (surprise, surprise). The way Mr Roberts was talking seemed to suggest that TfL would be expected to compensate the TOCs if the tariff was adopted.

What was not mentioned was whether you would end up with a repeat of what has happened with West Anglia with a sub tariff being created. The last thing we need is the "TfL South Eastern", "TfL South Western" and "TfL Southern" tariff variants to deal with the way fares scale up across the respective boundaries on differing routes.

 

[Be3G]

That's some interesting insight, thanks plcd1. No doubt TfL would be expected to compensate the TOCs, in the same way that they're compensating Greater Anglia now for the acceptance of the ‘West Anglian TfL’ fares scale at the WAML suburban stations.

 

[Busaholic]

The issue of Shoreditch will pale into insignificance if the rumours around Battersea Power Station's inclusion in Zone One when the the Northern Line gets extended this way from Charing Cross via Kennington in a few years time are true. The only reason this and Nine Elms would be in Zone 1 is to help the non-dom speculative builders market the properties as being in central London to other non-doms and thereby trouser a few extra hundred thousand per flat - 'see, it must be in central London, Mr Putramovich, it's in zone 1 just like Knightsbridge and Hyde Park Corner'. Expect Vauxhall to become Zone 1/2 if it happens, and it happening may be part of any confidential agreement between TfL and the Battersea head honcho stumping up a small fraction of the cost of this unnecessary extension.

 

[MikeWh]

Expect Vauxhall to become Zone 1/2 if it happens

It already is!

 

[londonbridge]

it is not really common sense that this Zones 1-4 journey is charged differently to that Zones 1-4 journey

On one occasion I travelled from West Croydon to Canada Water on London Overground. On my return journey, glancing out of the window as the train pulled into a station, I saw from the display on the platform that there was a Southern train a few minutes behind my one, so I jumped off and changed to the Southern at Sydenham and came back to East Croydon. Later, on checking my journey history, I realised I'd been charged differently for the two journeys despite the zones involved obviously being the same.

 

[plcd1]

That's some interesting insight, thanks plcd1. No doubt TfL would be expected to compensate the TOCs, in the same way that they're compensating Greater Anglia now for the acceptance of the ‘West Anglian TfL’ fares scale at the WAML suburban stations.

One other thing that emerged in that discussion on fares was that Kent County Council (KCC) were very keen to have Oyster extended to Sevenoaks and also beyond Dartford to Gravesend. I know some of this is part of local campaigns and in the franchise spec for South Eastern but KCC were enthusiastic in their support. That always helps.

 

[bicbasher]

On one occasion I travelled from West Croydon to Canada Water on London Overground. On my return journey, glancing out of the window as the train pulled into a station, I saw from the display on the platform that there was a Southern train a few minutes behind my one, so I jumped off and changed to the Southern at Sydenham and came back to East Croydon. Later, on checking my journey history, I realised I'd been charged differently for the two journeys despite the zones involved obviously being the same.

You were charged the NR fare for travelling to East Croydon which is £2.40 off-peak while if you went to West Croydon, you would have been charged the TfL fare which off-peak is £1.50.

Incidentally East and West Croydon are in Zone 5.

 

[londonbridge]

Yes I know why it happened (just as I also know which zone East and West Croydon are in, thank you)! I was merely highlighting bb21s point that the layman (who doesn't understand these things as some of us here do) might/would find it confusing as to why two journeys between the same zones were charged differently.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes I know why it happened (just as I also know which zone East and West Croydon are in, thank you)! I was merely highlighting bb21s point that the layman (who doesn't understand these things as some of us here do) might/would find it confusing as to why two journeys between the same zones were charged differently.

Indeed. A common theme of comments on my site is why the fares page says one thing (always the TfL page) when the charge is different (always involves some part of NR routes).

 

[VauxhallandI]

I must admit I am a little confused about the new pricing.

My girlfriend needs to renew her season ticket on the 16th, she has a Ticket from Cheshunt that allows her to get to Victoria, so imagine an all zones card with an extension to Cheshunt?

In the new world will she have to choose which line she wants, Southbury or Lea Valley?

I was chatting with the station manager at Theobalds on Saturday and he was showing me the new software on the ticket machine.

Getting the travel card is rather confusing, including pressing a button for. 1-6 then a button that says AAA. Also they have not given the ability to order a weekly one, why would that not be available from the off?

 

[Be3G]

The recent fare changes in the Lea Valley have altered nothing about season tickets, only Oyster PAYG fares. Fares from Cheshunt are confusing, but that's the way they've been ever since Cheshunt joined the travelcard zones two years ago. Since that time there've been two season tickets available, both with the same price but with different validities: Cheshunt to zones 1–6, and a simple zones 1–8. The former is what Greater Anglia were selling, but the latter is better value for money as the extra two zones can come in useful for travel to places such as Watford (High Street) too should that be needed.

Most likely what's happened now with the takeover by London Overground is they're ceasing retailing the travelcards with specific station origins, and transitioning to the simple 1–7/8 tickets instead, which is preferable. (Cheshunt station will be an exception to this as it's still run by GA, but that doesn't mean that they can't technically retail a 1–8 ticket, as they can, albeit not on Oyster.) Unfortunately, travelcards that exist beyond the standard zones 1-6 are a bit complicated in the world of National Rail: they're sold with a destination of zones 1–6, and an ‘also available at’ route containing the extra zones – this is what your discovered with the ticket machine.

So, to cut a long story short, your girlfriend will most likely just want a simple 1–8 travelcard on an Oyster, and could have had this since 2013 but it just hasn't been very well publicised. A useful side effect of the travelcard zones is that a 1–7 travelcard is valid to board at Theobalds Grove and go to London via Cheshunt for free, provided there's enough PAYG credit on the Oyster to allow the holder to make a hypothetical journey from TEO to CHN.