Confusing fares for new LO lines

[Be3G]

TfL have issued a press release today which, as well as including a link to the long-awaited new tube map, also includes details of the fares TfL will charge for the rail lines they're taking over. It seems that the news isn't quite as good as I was hoping! I always assumed that when LO took over, the fares charged would be the standard TfL-scale fares, with perhaps exceptions for stations that would still be served by large numbers of GA services (e.g. Cheshunt).

However, it seems that a whole new fare scale has actually been developed, combining elements of the TfL scale, the NR scale, and new fares altogether. So it turns out that one of the big improvements I expected us to get – £1.50 off-peak non-zone-1 fares – won't be happening after all. Instead, those fares will mostly be staying at NR levels, but with some interesting reductions to beyond-z6 fares: for example, a 2–7 NR fare is £2.90, TfL is £2.80, yet the new fare for these lines will be £2.70.

There are a couple of bits of good news though. One is that fares from Cheshunt down the WAML are also reducing despite the fact that TfL won't run services that way, in order to keep the prices the same between it and the Edmonton/Southbury line. This is an unexpected demonstration of joined-up thinking: the stations on both lines can be quite close together, so it would have seemed odd if fares from (for example) Theobalds Grove to London were vastly different to the fares from Waltham Cross. The other bit of good news is that no tickets are being withdrawn (yet) – some of us were nervous that rail point-to-point seasons would be disappearing, but thankfully that's not currently the case.

 

[swt_passenger]

The new info still seems unclear about Brentwood.

For example, the pay as you go peak fare from Brentwood to Zone 1 will
come down by £1.50 to £8.20 and the off-peak fare by £2.30 to £5.30 - significantly
lower than the current fares but higher than the standard Zone 1-9 Tube fare.

So does that mean that this Zone 9 is different to the other one up the Met?

They then later write:

As a result of Brentwood being added to Zone 9, the 7 Day Zone 1 Travelcard from there
will fall in price from £87.40 to £83.40 bringing it in line with current TfL fares.

Can anyone make sense of that?

 

[mattdickinson]

The new info still seems unclear about Brentwood.



So does that mean that this Zone 9 is different to the other one up the Met?

They then later write:



Can anyone make sense of that?

As far as capping and Travelcards are concerned it's Zone 9. The single fares may be different to those for Amersham and Chesham.

 

[Be3G]

Yes, indeed. It's the same situation we had when Theobalds Grove, Waltham Cross and Cheshunt were granted Oyster access: they were placed in numbered zones for the purposes of capping and season tickets, whilst attracting different (‘special’) PAYG goes.

 

[Envy123]

Yes, indeed. It's the same situation we had when Theobalds Grove, Waltham Cross and Cheshunt were granted Oyster access: they were placed in numbered zones for the purposes of capping and season tickets, whilst attracting different (‘special’) PAYG goes.

It's the same thing in New Southgate too. The PAYG fares are much higher than the nearby Arnos Grove station, but in terms of travelcards and capping, it is in Zone 4.

Not surprised the same thing happened to the new LO routes.

 

[transmanche]

It's the same thing in New Southgate too. The PAYG fares are much higher than the nearby Arnos Grove station, but in terms of travelcards and capping, it is in Zone 4.

That will always be the case where you have a red route (on this map) close to a tube station.

Not surprised the same thing happened to the new LO routes.

I am. It adds an new complication to an already complex fare system,

There are already some NR routes where you are charged TfL PAYG fares. Now there will be TfL routes that don't charge the TfL fare!

I assume that TfL PAYG fares will continue to be charged on journeys between Liverpool Street and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central/Stratford?

 

[James Wake]

Does anyone know if Bus Operator and Nominee Oyster Cards will be valid on Tfl Rail and the new London Overground lines?

 

[RJ]

Yes, indeed. It's the same situation we had when Theobalds Grove, Waltham Cross and Cheshunt were granted Oyster access: they were placed in numbered zones for the purposes of capping and season tickets, whilst attracting different (‘special’) PAYG goes.

For season ticket pricing - they're the same price as the Zone 7/8 Travelcards, but don't have the same validity! Creates some anomalies and possible revenue loss for Greater Anglia if people choose to buy the actual Travelcards with origins in TFL Zone 7/8 stations instead.

 

[Envy123]

That will always be the case where you have a red route (on this map) close to a tube station.

Did not know about the red route. Thank you

It also explains why I was only charged £1.50 when going from Bethnal Green NR to Arnos Grove via Seven Sisters.

I am. It adds an new complication to an already complex fare system,

There are already some NR routes where you are charged TfL PAYG fares. Now there will be TfL routes that don't charge the TfL fare!

I assume that TfL PAYG fares will continue to be charged on journeys between Liverpool Street and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale/Walthamstow Central/Stratford?

I am not surprised because even though Tfl is taking over some of the lines, I suspect the costs wouldn't automatically come down and neither would the fares come down drastically to Tfl fares (unless the councils agree to fund some of it from their tax, and I don't see that happening in places like Brentwood).

 

[matt_world2004]

Does anyone know if Bus Operator and Nominee Oyster Cards will be valid on Tfl Rail and the new London Overground lines?

Await for confirmation but I would say definitely on the LO and highly likely on the Tfl rail lines as staff passes are

 

[VauxhallandI]

TfL have issued a press release today which, as well as including a link to the long-awaited new tube map, also includes details of the fares TfL will charge for the rail lines they're taking over. It seems that the news isn't quite as good as I was hoping! I always assumed that when LO took over, the fares charged would be the standard TfL-scale fares, with perhaps exceptions for stations that would still be served by large numbers of GA services (e.g. Cheshunt).

However, it seems that a whole new fare scale has actually been developed, combining elements of the TfL scale, the NR scale, and new fares altogether. So it turns out that one of the big improvements I expected us to get – £1.50 off-peak non-zone-1 fares – won't be happening after all. Instead, those fares will mostly be staying at NR levels, but with some interesting reductions to beyond-z6 fares: for example, a 2–7 NR fare is £2.90, TfL is £2.80, yet the new fare for these lines will be £2.70.

There are a couple of bits of good news though. One is that fares from Cheshunt down the WAML are also reducing despite the fact that TfL won't run services that way, in order to keep the prices the same between it and the Edmonton/Southbury line. This is an unexpected demonstration of joined-up thinking: the stations on both lines can be quite close together, so it would have seemed odd if fares from (for example) Theobalds Grove to London were vastly different to the fares from Waltham Cross. The other bit of good news is that no tickets are being withdrawn (yet) – some of us were nervous that rail point-to-point seasons would be disappearing, but thankfully that's not currently the case.

Yes and it also highlights the lack of knowledge shown by the London Travelwatch director of policy who quoted that come TFL was an excuse not to challenge the hoo ha I have been through with AGA on the Theo prices and the validity via Cheshunt.

 

[jopsuk]

I dream a dream of a day when Oyster fares are the same throughout London for all Underground & Overground...

 

[bb21]

I dream a dream of a day when Oyster fares are the same throughout London for all Underground & Overground...

They were, prior to the takeover of these new lines.

 

[MikeWh]

I dream a dream of a day when Oyster fares are the same throughout London for all Underground & Overground...

They were, prior to the takeover of these new lines.

I think he's talking about Overground in the sense of National Rail, not the NR operator London Overground. It would be so much simpler if all you had to worry about was how many zones you are using.

 

[matt_world2004]

Does anyone know if Bus Operator and Nominee Oyster Cards will be valid on Tfl Rail and the new London Overground lines?

Surface transport intranet at Tfl confirmed that bus operator passes are valid on the new LO lines and Tfl rail.

 

[Be3G]

I think he's talking about Overground in the sense of National Rail, not the NR operator London Overground. It would be so much simpler if all you had to worry about was how many zones you are using.

I was thinking about this issue this morning. Oyster PAYG fares are becoming so confusing with so many exceptions and alterations tacked on to the ‘original’ fares model that I think we're soon going to be at the point where it becomes almost impossible to make an informed decision about the cheapest way of making multiple journeys without resorting to tedious research using the single fare finder. The result, I anticipate, will be that more people will just give up and let Oyster cap them (as opposed to finding cheaper routes that wouldn't necessitate reaching a cap), which means more money for TfL.

 

[bb21]

I wonder how many people on the street at the moment understand the difference between fares charged by NR red routes and those at the TfL fare scale? Because cheaper routes depend on the database having them defined, Single Fare Finder is still an essential tool even now at determining whether a proposed route would result in a cheaper fare. For this year alone, I have had to contact TfL twice regarding totally sensible journeys that did not have a corresponding (cheaper avoiding Zone 1) fare available and they were promptly added to the database.

Ultimately what you described is what the vast majority of people do anyway atm (letting the system take care of it) as it is not really common sense that this Zones 1-4 journey is charged differently to that Zones 1-4 journey, which can be yet again different if you join the two journeys together but still only use Zones 1-4. This goes totally against the purpose of zoning. The problem is that harmonising fares would require the nod from the DfT on National Rail routes but they would be very unlikely to agree to it unless the exercise can be shown to be revenue neutral. With the TfL fare scale generally lower outside Zone 1, and not many journeys on NR red routes are possible entirely within Zone 1, such a harmonisation will also likely see fare rises for those on the TfL scale I suspect and TfL may not like the resultant negative publicity.

 

[maniacmartin]

Most of the people I know don't even know that the mode also determines the price. So many people believe that it just depends on the zones and time of day

 

[RJ]

I don't even try and keep track. Too many inconsistencies, missing reasonable "avoiding Zone 1" fares and special arrangements, such as the zoning fiddles around Shoreditch ELL and Notting Hill Gate. At my window, I give Single Fare Finder printouts to anyone asking about Oyster fares.

 

[Be3G]

Ultimately what you described is what the vast majority of people do anyway atm (letting the system take care of it) as it is not really common sense that this Zones 1-4 journey is charged differently to that Zones 1-4 journey, which can be yet again different if you join the two journeys together but still only use Zones 1-4.

I do take your point, although I actually meant my previous post on a grander scale than just in terms of mode-based fare scales. I was thinking of all of the other tweaks as well: e.g. originally knowing whether you'd be charged a peak or off-peak fare or cap would be extremely simple, with the only exceptions to the blanket 6:30–9:30/16:00–19:00 rules being that journeys from certain Metropolitan line stations would count towards the off-peak cap even though they were technically at the end of the morning peak. Since then however we've had the introduction of an in-to-zone-1 evening concession, the out-of-zone-1 Watford line morning concession, the abolition of off-peak caps altogether to be replaced by a confusing refunds system, and so on.

Some of those changes are positive of course, in the same way that some of the changes TfL are making to the new WA-takeover services' fares are also positive. However, the sheer level of complexity they keep making to fares is making it ever more difficult to take advantage of the positive changes and predict costs for one's day of travelling, and that's the problem I have. I mean, I don't have the Oyster fares tables memorised but I knew one standout simple thing: travel on any service run by TfL during off-peak hours within zones 2–6 and only pay £1.50. Brilliant, the same as a bus fare. I reckon a few ‘normal’ people probably know about that as well as I expect it partially explains the explosion in popularity of London Overground services until now. But that's another rule that's changed.

 

[bb21]

Oh, I totally agree. Just using the Zones 1-4 journey as an example that came into my head.

Positive changes are no good if people don't understand them in order to take advantage. To use a simple example, what is the point of the afternoon into-Zone 1 concession if people don't understand it and still travel from High Barnet to, for example, Mornington Crescent, when going to Euston and walking to the destination (possibly the same distance as from Mornington Crescent) would actually be cheaper when common sense would say finish at Mornington Crescent to be charged for one less zone? [Edit: bad example (see below) but my general point stands.]

We love doing half a job and the whole mess surrounding Oyster fares just reinforces the idea that railway ticketing is incredibly complicated and not for the faint-hearted amongst those who have no intention of spending hours on it in order to understand it. There is no joint-up thinking between TfL and DfT and neither seem particularly bothered by it judging by their efforts at harmonising the fare scale.

 

[MikeWh]

To use a simple example, what is the point of the afternoon into-Zone 1 concession if people don't understand it and still travel from High Barnet to, for example, Mornington Crescent, when going to Euston and walking to the destination (possibly the same distance as from Mornington Crescent) would actually be cheaper when common sense would say finish at Mornington Crescent to be charged for one less zone?

High Barnet to Mornington Crescent: £2.80/£1.50
High Barnet to Euston: £4.70/£3.10

There are some instances on NR-set routes where it is cheaper to get off in zone 1 rather than zone 2, but not by much and not from every outer zone.

 

[bb21]

High Barnet to Mornington Crescent: £2.80/£1.50
High Barnet to Euston: £4.70/£3.10

There are some instances on NR-set routes where it is cheaper to get off in zone 1 rather than zone 2, but not by much and not from every outer zone.

OK, bad example (without checking actual fares), but I'm sure you all know the point I was trying to make.

 

[Alan White]

I wonder how many people on the street at the moment understand the difference between fares charged by NR red routes and those at the TfL fare scale?

As an occasional (around once a week) Oyster PAYG user, and despite the best efforts of MikeWh, I certainly have little idea what I'll be charged - I just use the SFF. I thought the whole point of zones was to make fares simple.

For this year alone, I have had to contact TfL twice regarding totally sensible journeys that did not have a corresponding (cheaper avoiding Zone 1) fare available and they were promptly added to the database.

I did that a couple of months ago but without the same success. East Acton-Feltham is always charged via zone 1 even though I doubt anyone would go that way. The guy I spoke to at TfL said I should have gone via Oxford Circus . I went via White City/Wood Lane & the Hammersmiths - the most obvious route - but was charged £7.60 (or would have been were it not for capping).

Interestingly, if it were not for the White City/Wood Lane and the Hammersmiths interchanges then the journey would have cost only £7.40. And if the journey were taken as two segments East Acton to Richmond (£2.40) and Richmond to Feltham (£2.70) then the total would be only £5.10.

Looking at the adjacent stations, the SFF shows that North Acton to Feltham via Ealing Broadway, Turnham Green and Richmond would be only £3.40, and Wood Lane to Feltham via Hammersmith and Richmond would be £4.00.

So there is no logic and I'm unsurprised that no-one can work out TfL's fares without the SFF. And I'm sure that TfL like it that way.

 

[bb21]

I did that a couple of months ago but without the same success. East Acton-Feltham is always charged via zone 1 even though I doubt anyone would go that way. The guy I spoke to at TfL said I should have gone via Oxford Circus . I went via White City/Wood Lane & the Hammersmiths - the most obvious route - but was charged £7.60 (or would have been were it not for capping).

Interestingly, if it were not for the White City/Wood Lane and the Hammersmiths interchanges then the journey would have cost only £7.40. And if the journey were taken as two segments East Acton to Richmond (£2.40) and Richmond to Feltham (£2.70) then the total would be only £5.10.

Looking at the adjacent stations, the SFF shows that North Acton to Feltham via Ealing Broadway, Turnham Green and Richmond would be only £3.40, and Wood Lane to Feltham via Hammersmith and Richmond would be £4.00.

So there is no logic and I'm unsurprised that no-one can work out TfL's fares without the SFF. And I'm sure that TfL like it that way.

That's shocking, especially given that it is very easy for TfL to tell whether someone went that way through records of touches when transferring between Hammersmith (Met) and Hammersmith (District). I guess you didn't speak to London Travelwatch?

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a TfL explanation of all the fare changes here:

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/def... fares revision paper advice to Mayor PDF.pdf

An interesting quote from the first page summary:

some fares come down but not to TfL levels because TfL levels are too low and will cause problems in the way they interact with other national rail fares

 

[EM2]

What's the difference on the two tables in the link?
Pages 2-3 and pages 4-5 are titled the same.
But as an example, the Off-Peak PAYG adult fares for Z6-Z9 Brentwood are £2.40 on the former table, and £0.75 on the latter?

What am I missing?

 

[bb21]

Adult - Child.

 

[EM2]

Adult - Child.

Ah, yes. Seen it now!

 

[Be3G]

There's a TfL explanation of all the fare changes here:

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/def... fares revision paper advice to Mayor PDF.pdf

Very interesting indeed, thanks for pointing us to it.