Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[WillPS]

Unless the winning bidder provides a quote for them in an annex which the DfT decides to take up. Simply providing them as an option surely would not endanger the bid.

 

[jcc]

Some links for those following this thread to peruse:

Keith Barrow of International Railway Journal. Perhaps interesting that he reads the ITT as appearing "to support the concept".

Rail Technology Magazine visited the Vivarail site.

And some Vivarail marketing, I mean, a progress update.

 

[47802]

Well possibly there might be some fiddling so that they in edition to the 120 New but if they were the 120 New not only would that be a major back heel it would make the so called northern powerhouse look a bit of a joke, and to me the Northern ITT seems to have been written in a way to essentially rule these trains out.

Also OK while they are not pacers, and might give a slightly better ride, they are still 40 year old trains whatever Shooter and co might say, which are were not designed for the Mainline, not designed to be DEMU's with a restricted top speed and no compatibility with the existing Northern fleet, I don't think the Northern bidders will be that keen on using them unless they are essentially pushed into it by the DFT.

Who ever win the franchise in my view is going to have to show a significant improvement to the overall product on Northern otherwise thier business is going to be tainted.

I only have to talk to friends and colleagues who have no interest in railways but sometimes use them, and using such as East Coast or TPX doesn't usually elicit much response, but mention Northern and the usual response is their S***

 

[t_star2001uk]

Also OK while they are not pacers, and might give a slightly better ride, they are still 40 year old trains whatever Shooter and co might say, which are were not designed for the Mainline, not designed to be DEMU's with a restricted top speed and no compatibility with the existing Northern fleet

Thats what i was thinking. As the vehicles have been substantially altered from the original design, would they have to go through the whole certification process again, as they could be described as new. By new i mean that they are not doing their designed function of being a LUL metro train and are to be used as a DEMU on the mainline.

 

[northwichcat]

Keith Barrow of International Railway Journal. Perhaps interesting that he reads the ITT as appearing "to support the concept".

The writer of that article has been a number of presumptions.

Firstly, the ITT doesn't specify that the new self-powered vehicles have to be for regional services as the article suggests. The ITT specifies Northern must have regional standard DMUs and must deliver 120 new carriages but cascaded 170s from Scotrail could meet the regional requirements with a few minor improvements. One bidder may well propose the new carriages will be for regional services while another may propose using cascaded 170s on regional services.

Secondly, as already pointed out, the ITT specifies the only options for non-electric services are 15xs, 17xs, loco-hauled and new build, apart from a possible temporary loan/sublease of 185s for routes which transfer from TPE to Northern. Whether the D-Train is classed as new build is debatable.

Thirdly, the idea the ITT supports the concept seems to originate from where the ITT says bidders can propose Metro style interiors. However, the ITT also states older trains must be fully refurbished so the Metro style interiors could be introduced on trains like 150s and 319s as part of that refurbishment. Also Metro style interior doesn't have to mean like the London Overground 378s - it could mean like the South West Trains 455s.

 

[JaJaWa]

The D Trains are mentioned in the new FGW / GWR franchise: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2171166&postcount=466

Rolling stock project feasibility studies
The Franchisee shall carry out and present to the Secretary of State by 31 December 2015 initial feasibility studies in respect of each of the following potential projects, with any further implementation of the Projects being subject to a Variation:

(a) proposals for the trial and, if successful, implementation of Independently Powered EMUs ("IPEMUs") on the route between Newbury and Bedwyn (including an assessment of the feasibility of through operation from London Paddington);

(b) proposals for the trial and, if successful, implementation of IPEMUs on the route between Reading, Redhill and Gatwick Airport;

(c) subject to initial examination confirming likely viability, proposals for the trial deployment and, if successful, implementation of converted former London Underground D78 rolling stock on one or more selected branch lines within the Franchise; and

(d) proposals for an alternative rolling stock solution for services operating between Portsmouth and Cardiff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The D Trains are mentioned in the new FGW / GWR franchise: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2171166&postcount=466

I wonder how many of these Vivarail units would be required in total on the "one or more branch lines" when compared to the actual number that Vivarail have to offer.

 

[HSTEd]

One or two on the St Ives Shuttle, two or four on Falmouth, one or two on the Looe branch, one or two on Newquay... the number grows quite rapidly.

 

[Clip]

So let just say for arguments sake that a D-Train is tested on a West Ruislip-Paddington and return.

Where is it going to be kept? The nearest depot is Wembley LMD. To get from West Ruislip to Wembley will mean a 60mph journey on a 100mph railway as far as Great Central Way Junction to reverse into Wembley, otherwise a journey all of the way in to London.

Who will drive it? Aylesbury drivers are the only ones who sign Paddington, there is a small group of London based drivers who sign as far as Old Oak Common depot. Aylesbury drivers do not sign Wembley depot so not only would a few Aylesbury drivers have to be trained but also Marylebone drivers as well, and as there is only one 75 driver link at Marylebone and we all cover the depot, there is no captive link, how do you choose who is going to be trained.

It seem that there are far more unanswered questions than there are answers.

Actually all your supposed questions are easy to overcome - which I am sure you could do with just a little bit more thought into it.

You have created problems there in your post - the answers are just a little bit of thought away.

 

[edwin_m]

The D Trains are mentioned in the new FGW / GWR franchise: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2171166&postcount=466

Interesting. Mention of a trial suggests they aren't likely to go to Northern. Possibly because they don't have time to prove themselves or otherwise before the franchise bid deadline.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Actually all your supposed questions are easy to overcome - which I am sure you could do with just a little bit more thought into it.

You have created problems there in your post - the answers are just a little bit of thought away.

I was just looking at it at face value. Please feel free to add your thoughts on what i have written.

 

[adsteamfan]

The Northern ITT clearly states that the New Build units must not contain any re-used parts so why do people keep mentioning the D78s as potentially part of the New Build?

 

[fgwrich]

The D Trains are mentioned in the new FGW / GWR franchise: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2171166&postcount=466

One or two on the St Ives Shuttle, two or four on Falmouth, one or two on the Looe branch, one or two on Newquay... the number grows quite rapidly.

Incorrect, as the Class 150s will be running the Devon & Cornwall branches for some time yet to come. The new build Exeter Depot will soon be home to a fleet of Class 150 & 158s as the West Fleet is thinned down, possibly any additional Class 165/166 Turbos if another solution is found by releasing the last few remaining LTV based units, and another rolling stock solution is found by releasing the Turbos from the proposed Bristol - Cardiff/Portsmouth axis.

As I posted in the FGW Franchise thread, the D Train solution does remain a possibility for two of the not to be modified / electrified LTV Branches - The Maidenhead to Marlow & West Ealing to Greenford branches, where a new bay platform is being constructed to cater for the Greenford shuttle post Crossrail.

 

[47802]

Incorrect, as the Class 150s will be running the Devon & Cornwall branches for some time yet to come. The new build Exeter Depot will soon be home to a fleet of Class 150 & 158s as the West Fleet is thinned down, possibly any additional Class 165/166 Turbos if another solution is found by releasing the last few remaining LTV based units, and another rolling stock solution is found by releasing the Turbos from the proposed Bristol - Cardiff/Portsmouth axis.

As I posted in the FGW Franchise thread, the D Train solution does remain a possibility for two of the not to be modified / electrified LTV Branches - The Maidenhead to Marlow & West Ealing to Greenford branches, where a new bay platform is being constructed to cater for the Greenford shuttle post Crossrail.

How do you know that D trains wont end up on the Cornish branches? or 165/166's will end up at Exeter if alternate trains are used for Portsmouth Cardiff? it would seem to me that the options to be investigated could make a number of current plans subject to change, and far as maintenance goes for the D trains isn't that meant to be a man in van like an AA man

 

[LateThanNever]

How do you know that D trains wont end up on the Cornish branches? or 165/166's will end up at Exeter if alternate trains are used for Portsmouth Cardiff? it would seem to me that the options to be investigated could make a number of current plans subject to change, and far as maintenance goes for the D trains isn't that meant to be a man in van like an AA man

Quite. I actually think the Cornish branches and probably the Devon branches could, if the accelleration is as good as it is supposed to be, do much worse than be allocated D trains!

 

[FordFocus]

Ive got a very good idea how big the links are in Aylesbury thanks I worked for Chiltern for many a year.

Excellent, so your aware of the numbers involved and the routes then.

You say you have an open mind but you don't really do you as you haven't thought it through nor read my posts at all have you? Im talking about the demonstration model and for that you don't even have to have it out in service all day every day - just enough to see that it is capable of working and doing its job - carrying passengers. You only need a couple to do that and it can take the place of the bubble



I said the best place to test it not for it to be there doing mainline duties day in day out. Though why not West Ruislip to Padd also? See an open mind thinks of the possibilities, it doesn't just say everything is crap before its built and tested because they can.

I still don't see how Chiltern is the best place for testing. The only two things that your loosely connect any advantages for testing from you is that Shooter was at Chiltern for years with the impression that Chiltern will release drivers and that it's near Long Marston.

As a side note, does Long Marston still have a working connection to the mainline? If not, where are the units getting unloaded? Can't do Aylesbury as that yard is full with limited space and full of exams. Wembley is impossible to get anything in or out and Banbury isn't built yet. Where would they be kept?

Testing along the single line in between shuttles, through services, empty stock and slow speed freight trains from Calvert & Bicester MOD? Are there any paths left for a D-Stock train? I doubt it sorry.

Unlikely to be able to path a 60mph unproven train in between 100mph mainline services either.

What's the contingency if it fails, can it couple to other trains such as 165s to shove it out of the way? As soon as something breaks down on Chiltern, it's game over for a few hours. Look at loco failures.

West Ruslip to Padd has been explained by another poster.

If anything, freight men will accumulate hours for these trains. Just like the new EMUs out of Bletchley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has been repeatedly pointed out that Chiltern run a low speed DMU, the bubble car, between Aylesbury and Princes Risborough daily. A D78 could easily replace this. Normal passengers would probably appreciate it - I had a ride on the bubble car last week and I had forgotten just how noisy and rattly 1st generation DMUs were.

 

[FordFocus]

Thanks Neil, I must have missed that.

 

[Skutter]

The Northern ITT clearly states that the New Build units must not contain any re-used parts so why do people keep mentioning the D78s as potentially part of the New Build?

They would be additional to the New Build. The new build will be very expensive compared to pacers; ITT requires an increase in capacity; and there's no opportunity to grab end-of-lease stock unless the current operator definitely has a replacement on order. The bidders need to save money, and get control of some trains - I still think the D78s have a chance here.

 

[Bantamzen]

They would be additional to the New Build. The new build will be very expensive compared to pacers; ITT requires an increase in capacity; and there's no opportunity to grab end-of-lease stock unless the current operator definitely has a replacement on order. The bidders need to save money, and get control of some trains - I still think the D78s have a chance here.

Except as was pointed out earlier and on WNXX, it sounds like none of the three bidders are terribly interested. So unless DfT decide impose them on the Northern franchise winners, which would be both politically and maybe even commerically unpopular, I think the D78s will have to find homes elsewhere or face the scrappers.

 

[Clip]

I was just looking at it at face value. Please feel free to add your thoughts on what i have written.

Ok then well seeing how you seem obsessed with running a 60MPH train on a 100MPH track then you can possibly explain the stoppers Chiltern run? Or indeed the skip trains that manage have a top speed of 60MPH all the way up the mainline and do indeed then cross over the UP to go via little kimble through to calvert? Why can they find a space to run and not something else during the off peak to take it back to Aylesbury? Or do you not know the railway you actually work on? Traction training I have already said

It has been repeatedly pointed out that Chiltern run a low speed DMU, the bubble car, between Aylesbury and Princes Risborough daily. A D78 could easily replace this. Normal passengers would probably appreciate it - I had a ride on the bubble car last week and I had forgotten just how noisy and rattly 1st generation DMUs were.

Thanks Neil - I was getting tired of pointing this out.

 

[Buttsy]

As a side note, does Long Marston still have a working connection to the mainline? If not, where are the units getting unloaded? Can't do Aylesbury as that yard is full with limited space and full of exams. Wembley is impossible to get anything in or out and Banbury isn't built yet. Where would they be kept?

Yes, it connects to the Cotswold line at Honeybourne. Run it up to Oxford, up to Princes Risborough and down to Aylesbury at night as by then the Bicester chord will be operational no doubt. If not, run it via Banbury.

 

[47802]

Except as was pointed out earlier and on WNXX, it sounds like none of the three bidders are terribly interested. So unless DfT decide impose them on the Northern franchise winners, which would be both politically and maybe even commerically unpopular, I think the D78s will have to find homes elsewhere or face the scrappers.

Well it may be the case that other Franchises have to have them to free up as many Sprinters as possible for the Northern Powerhouse, although it wouldn't surprise me if Northern still end up with some.

On the face of it FGW branches may be quite suitable most being relatively short and low speed, would that mean a bad deal for FGW , no I don't think it would as FGW is still getting major investment and significant increases in capacity across the board.

But there still seems to be a big question around crash testing, if Shooter and co want to regard these trains as new then surly they have meet all the current crash regs, and if they don't then if I was such as Bombardier and Siemens then maybe I would be flagging up a foul. On the other hand perhaps Vivarail both want to have the cake and eat it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In an idle moment this morning, it occurred to me that had he been alive today, Colonel Holman Fred Stephens would have been a staunch supporter of this Vivarail project, but then again, he seemed to favour the use of rolling stock and locomotives with the hope of extracting the last vestiges of work from them.

With regard to the crash test held years ago when a locomotive was deliberately run at speed into a specially reinforced container of nuclear waste in order to test the integrity of the container, I wonder what the maximum km/hour the locomotive would been allowed to travel, if Vivarail had been charge of that matter...

I still remain totally and utterly unconvinced about this Vivarail project any my cynicism is burning brightly once again, fuelled by a reading of the later postings on this thread.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I agree Paul, these trains are becoming less convincing.
I have concerns over their speed, safety, comfort etc. And how they will mess timetables up with their slow speed. The crash test was just a gimmick and not a real test as they didn't want to damage the scrap metal train.
I did have hopes these could replace 153s but not anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree Paul, these trains are becoming less convincing.
I have concerns over their speed, safety, comfort etc.

Comfort will depend on what layout is fitted to them. The 2+2 all tables layout looks very comfortable, and appears to be fully window aligned. Safety, well, I'm happy to ride them on LU, why would I not be happy to ride them on a branch line somewhere? Speed is to me the only actually valid concern - are there enough places suitable for them. I suspect there are, though.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Ok then well seeing how you seem obsessed with running a 60MPH train on a 100MPH track then you can possibly explain the stoppers Chiltern run? Or indeed the skip trains that manage have a top speed of 60MPH all the way up the mainline and do indeed then cross over the UP to go via little kimble through to calvert? Why can they find a space to run and not something else during the off peak to take it back to Aylesbury? Or do you not know the railway you actually work on? Traction training I have already said

So the rubbish trains that run on the Chiltern route. Do they stop at stations or do they run no stop, subject to signalling of course. What will take more space on a minimum 75mph railway, is it the train that runs no stop or the train that stops at stations. And yes i do know the railway that i work on......

 

[stockport1]

In an idle moment this morning, it occurred to me that had he been alive today, Colonel Holman Fred Stephens would have been a staunch supporter of this Vivarail project, but then again, he seemed to favour the use of rolling stock and locomotives with the hope of extracting the last vestiges of work from them.

With regard to the crash test held years ago when a locomotive was deliberately run at speed into a specially reinforced container of nuclear waste in order to test the integrity of the container, I wonder what the maximum km/hour the locomotive would been allowed to travel, if Vivarail had been charge of that matter...

I still remain totally and utterly unconvinced about this Vivarail project any my cynicism is burning brightly once again, fuelled by a reading of the later postings on this thread.

you cant polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the rubbish trains that run on the Chiltern route. Do they stop at stations or do they run no stop, subject to signalling of course. What will take more space on a minimum 75mph railway, is it the train that runs no stop or the train that stops at stations. And yes i do know the railway that i work on......

Such as the bit from Aylesbury to Princes Risborough?

Nobody is suggesting running them down the mainline, are they? Though if the shoes were left in place, running them on electric on the Met might not be all that bad an idea. (Note: top speed of S-stock=62mph).

 

[martinsh]

In an idle moment this morning, it occurred to me that had he been alive today, Colonel Holman Fred Stephens would have been a staunch supporter of this Vivarail project, but then again, he seemed to favour the use of rolling stock and locomotives with the hope of extracting the last vestiges of work from them.

So, Paul, you are proposing their use on the Gunnislake branch then ? :roll: