Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[t_star2001uk]

Well Shooter being the Chairman for god knows how long and still keeping in touch with them would form a very close relationship.

Don't just dismiss things out of hand is all I am saying and ANY TOC would love the use of a free train.

Well before the railway i worked on construction of the Channel Tunnel. I was with that project for a few years but i still dont get free trips.

So a free new/old train. with all of the associated training costs for drivers. Not so free after all. Would there even be a business case for training a complete link of drivers to drive possibly 1 train that may even not stay with us for very long.

 

[northwichcat]

Well before the railway i worked on construction of the Channel Tunnel. I was with that project for a few years but i still dont get free trips.

So a free new/old train. with all of the associated training costs for drivers. Not so free after all. Would there even be a business case for training a complete link of drivers to drive possibly 1 train that may even not stay with us for very long.

The question is whether Chiltern can either secure a Turbostar to replace the Bubble car or manage to do without it once they get the TPE 170/3s. If not they may finish up with a non-standard DMU in the fleet regardless of whether it's a Sprinter, D-Train or Pacer.

 

[FordFocus]

In 5 years time when these Bubbles "need" replacing provided they don't have an exemption a lot can happen for the sake of a small branch line serving two small stations.

The timetable could be recast removing the need for the shuttle service without E-W
172s will have been available from it's sister company at LOROL to match the small fleet at Chiltern
E-W timetable may kill the shuttle service and have remodelled the entire line to a 75mph double track railway.
Electrification (years away)

Chiltern won't be interested in a small fleet of new non-standard DMU, regardless of who the ex-chairman is. The training cost for Drivers and Fleet and then creating a new parts pool is very, very cost inefficient for them. Chiltern own it's 1st gen fleet, some have been flogged off recently to make space for the 170 fleet that's coming from Transpennine.

 

[Clip]

Well before the railway i worked on construction of the Channel Tunnel. I was with that project for a few years but i still dont get free trips.

So a free new/old train. with all of the associated training costs for drivers. Not so free after all. Would there even be a business case for training a complete link of drivers to drive possibly 1 train that may even not stay with us for very long.

You really are missing the point and you simply were not the Chairman of the company who built the tunnel were you? No.

I said FREE TRAIN which it will be - the cost of the drivers is already factored in seeing how they already work for them and drive the routes so the only thing they would need to learn is the traction - and yes there could easily be a business case made - they get the train for nowt.

AND they get the enthusiast's who come down to see it in action and pay for tickets to go on it. See, that's all it takes.

 

[northwichcat]

172s will have been available from it's sister company at LOROL to match the small fleet at Chiltern

It's irrelevant which companies are involved with LOROL. The trains are owned by Angel Trains not LOROL and so are free for any operator to take on once they are freed up from LO.

 

[Clip]

E-W timetable may kill the shuttle service and have remodelled the entire line to a 75mph double track railway.
Electrification (years away)

And how long do you think it would take to double the track? Its not very easy countryside it goes through is it?

Chiltern won't be interested in a small fleet of new non-standard DMU, regardless of who the ex-chairman is. The training cost for Drivers and Fleet and then creating a new parts pool is very, very cost inefficient for them. Chiltern own it's 1st gen fleet, some have been flogged off recently to make space for the 170 fleet that's coming from Transpennine

I do shake my head at times I really do. The cost for training on some new traction is going to be minimal and they don't need a large pool of drivers to fit in the diagram either. They generally have enough room to be able to maintain them too- or they did when I last worked for them.


I have no idea if this will ever come off however I am not one for sticking my head in the sand going no no no - Im actually looking at the distinct possibility that Vivarail are going to need to demonstrate this train and the best place for it is at Chiltern.



And there was me reading threads on here about magic line openings and thought posters had open minds. I guess I was wrong.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Im actually looking at the distinct possibility that Vivarail are going to need to demonstrate this train and the best place for it is at Chiltern.

Why Chiltern though. Why not somewhere in Wales or the Highlands of Scotland. There are plenty of places throughout the Uk and just because the ex chair of Chiltern is also the boss of the company building these new/old trains there have been several suggestions that Chiltern is the ideal test bed. Look at all of the press that has been surrounding the D-Train and the suggestion is that they are a possible replcement for the Pacer, so why not test them on Northerns patch or anywhere else that the Pacers currently live.

 

[northwichcat]

Look at all of the press that has been surrounding the D-Train and the suggestion is that they are a possible replcement for the Pacer, so why not test them on Northerns patch or anywhere else that the Pacers currently live.

FGW are to get rid of their Pacers by 2019 using cascades as a result of the introduction of 387s and 365s to their services.

ATW can get rid of them by Valley Lines electrification.

The minimum 120 proper build new build carriages that the Northern ITT requires plus the options for taking on cascaded Sprinters, Turbostars and additional EMUs can get rid of Pacers in the North.

DfT surprised Mr Shooter by saying 120 new build carriages for Northern which cannot be rebuilt from old trains. (The Conservatives actually wanted people up North to vote for them.) Unless things change there's no need for D-Trains up North, except maybe as a temporary capacity boost until other stock is available or to cover refurbishments. He really needs to look beyond Northern if he wants to make use of the ex-LU carriages he purchased.

 

[t_star2001uk]

FGW are to get rid of their Pacers by 2019 using cascades as a result of the introduction of 387s and 365s to their services.

ATW can get rid of them by Valley Lines electrification.

The minimum 120 proper build new build carriages that the Northern ITT requires plus the options for taking on cascaded Sprinters, Turbostars and additional EMUs can get rid of Pacers in the North.

DfT surprised Mr Shooter by saying 120 new build carriages for Northern which cannot be rebuilt from old trains. (The Conservatives actually wanted people up North to vote for them.) Unless things change there's no need for D-Trains up North, except maybe as a temporary capacity boost until other stock is available or to cover refurbishments. He really needs to look beyond Northern if he wants to make use of the ex-LU carriages he purchased.

Mmm has the scrap price for aluminium risen.....

 

[FordFocus]

And how long do you think it would take to double the track? Its not very easy countryside it goes through is it?

It would need substantial relying, the space is there for a double track railway.

I do shake my head at times I really do. The cost for training on some new traction is going to be minimal and they don't need a large pool of drivers to fit in the diagram either. They generally have enough room to be able to maintain them too- or they did when I last worked for them.

I have no idea why your shaking your head I have no idea how big the link is at Aylesbury but I suspect that at least 20-30 drivers in the top link... I'd estimate at least 4 or 5 days of training each as it's not exactly a conversion from a 16x is it? It's a few thousand right there in training cost.

I have no idea if this will ever come off however I am not one for sticking my head in the sand going no no no - Im actually looking at the distinct possibility that Vivarail are going to need to demonstrate this train and the best place for it is at Chiltern.



And there was me reading threads on here about magic line openings and thought posters had open minds. I guess I was wrong.

I have an open mind on this but I'm not filled full of optimism about it. If it's working, approved and met or exceeded expectations that I'll happily admit I was wrong to be sceptical.

As for Chiltern been the best place? Nah. Not by a long shot. Adrian Shooter hasn't bought all this D Stock, paid for all this design work and conversion costs just for Chiltern to use 2 of the things for the Aylesbury to Risborough shuttles. Wouldn't work on the 100mph mainline or Met line. It may end up in testing down there as it's close to the workshops but I'm not convinced.

 

[route:oxford]

Why Chiltern though. Why not somewhere in Wales or the Highlands of Scotland.

Common sense really.

It's a long way from Dingwall to Long Marston.
It's 45 minutes from Chilternland to Long Marston

 

[Wolfie]

It's irrelevant which companies are involved with LOROL. The trains are owned by Angel Trains not LOROL and so are free for any operator to take on once they are freed up from LO.

Well you are of course assuming that LOROL actually give them up and don't just sublease to Chiltern...

 

[northwichcat]

Well you are of course assuming that LOROL actually give them up and don't just sublease to Chiltern...

I'm not assuming. It's written in black and white in ITTs published by LO with regards to delivery of the new EMUs and maintenance contracts for the 172s that LO will return the 172s to Angel Trains in 2018. If LO get their all their new EMUs in to passenger service in good time then maybe there would be an option for LO to sublease them for few months before returning them to Angel.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have no idea if this will ever come off however I am not one for sticking my head in the sand going no no no - Im actually looking at the distinct possibility that Vivarail are going to need to demonstrate this train and the best place for it is at Chiltern. And there was me reading threads on here about magic line openings and thought posters had open minds. I guess I was wrong.

I learn something new every day on this thread.

I always knew you to be a person who is excellent in solving all types of problems that affect computers, but I now see that you have now been seconded to the Marketing Department of Vivarail and your strenuous efforts to convince all on this thread of the benefits of what I now have given a new trade name of the "Vivarail Incubus" surely will ensure that a certain Mr Shooter will not let your efforts go unrewarded. Perhaps a seat on the board of that football club you support, perchance.

 

[RPM]

It would need substantial relying, the space is there for a double track railway.

There is room between Little Kimble and Monks Risborough for a dynamic loop without the need for land purchase. Similarly, the final straight approaching Aylesbury could be doubled with relative ease. Other areas of the line would be considerably more difficult/expensive to double.

One of the major jobs that would have to be done in order to achieve a line speed increase is the elimination of some of the 20+ crossings on the branch.

I have no idea how big the link is at Aylesbury but I suspect that at least 20-30 drivers in the top link... I'd estimate at least 4 or 5 days of training each as it's not exactly a conversion from a 16x is it? It's a few thousand right there in training cost..

Approximately 90 drivers at Aylesbury would need to be trained, or 50 if limited to link 1.

 

[Clip]

I have no idea why your shaking your head I have no idea how big the link is at Aylesbury but I suspect that at least 20-30 drivers in the top link... I'd estimate at least 4 or 5 days of training each as it's not exactly a .

Ive got a very good idea how big the links are in Aylesbury thanks I worked for Chiltern for many a year.

conversion from a 16x is it? It's a few thousand right there in training cost.
I have an open mind on this but I'm not filled full of optimism about it. If it's working, approved and met or exceeded expectations that I'll happily admit I was wrong to be sceptical.

You say you have an open mind but you don't really do you as you haven't thought it through nor read my posts at all have you? Im talking about the demonstration model and for that you don't even have to have it out in service all day every day - just enough to see that it is capable of working and doing its job - carrying passengers. You only need a couple to do that and it can take the place of the bubble

As for Chiltern been the best place? Nah. Not by a long shot. Adrian Shooter hasn't bought all this D Stock, paid for all this design work and conversion costs just for Chiltern to use 2 of the things for the Aylesbury to Risborough shuttles. Wouldn't work on the 100mph mainline or Met line. It may end up in testing down there as it's close to the workshops but I'm not convinced

I said the best place to test it not for it to be there doing mainline duties day in day out. Though why not West Ruislip to Padd also? See an open mind thinks of the possibilities, it doesn't just say everything is crap before its built and tested because they can.

I learn something new every day on this thread.

I always knew you to be a person who is excellent in solving all types of problems that affect computers, but I now see that you have now been seconded to the Marketing Department of Vivarail and your strenuous efforts to convince all on this thread of the benefits of what I now have given a new trade name of the "Vivarail Incubus" surely will ensure that a certain Mr Shooter will not let your efforts go unrewarded. Perhaps a seat on the board of that football club you support, perchance.

I think you will find it is you and others who are doing this project down before it has even started and given it a childish nickname rather than me joining anyones marketing department.

 

[47802]

The Northern ITT specifies Pacer replacement and that bidders may only propose using the following stock on non-electrified routes post-Dec 2019:
1. Diesel stock Northern currently used excluding Pacers.
2. Class 15xs and/or 17xs which are off-lease.
3. New build.*

* A minimum of 120 new carriages are required which cannot be rebuilt from old trains.

The only way you can propose using D-Trains is by claiming they are new build and still delivering 120 new carriages which aren't D-Trains, even then it's debateable whether that'd be allowed.

I think we'll be worst off if Pacers are allowed to remain post-December 2019

Well it remains to be seen how the Northern ITT is stuck to. I personally think that overall 143/144 with a significant epacer upgrade should be allowed to stay, to me they are better option than the vivarail units with higher top speed and compatibility was the sprinter fleet, a much reduced upgraded Railbus fleet removed from Northern's major long distance route's would remove many people objections to these trains. I would think that the limited top speed and lack of ability to work in multiple with the rest of Northern's Diesel fleet are major drawbacks, you could have also put some proviso in there like the Regional Train Proviso, so that such as through trains on the Newcastle - Carlisle route for instance have to be sprinter worked.

If the Northern ITT is properly stuck to then I think Shooter and co have been somewhat stuffed. He says new trains are too expensive I would say his new old train isn't good enough, and alegidly its only cheap if you keep the old interior and no Toilet, I don't think many would see that as an acceptable replacement to a Railbus on Northern, well except perhaps the DFT.

I still expect some sort of Backtracking regarding the Northern Franchise.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Though why not West Ruislip to Padd

So let just say for arguments sake that a D-Train is tested on a West Ruislip-Paddington and return.

Where is it going to be kept? The nearest depot is Wembley LMD. To get from West Ruislip to Wembley will mean a 60mph journey on a 100mph railway as far as Great Central Way Junction to reverse into Wembley, otherwise a journey all of the way in to London.

Who will drive it? Aylesbury drivers are the only ones who sign Paddington, there is a small group of London based drivers who sign as far as Old Oak Common depot. Aylesbury drivers do not sign Wembley depot so not only would a few Aylesbury drivers have to be trained but also Marylebone drivers as well, and as there is only one 75 driver link at Marylebone and we all cover the depot, there is no captive link, how do you choose who is going to be trained.

It seem that there are far more unanswered questions than there are answers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably a more sensible choice would be to use it in place of the Bubble Car, which has all the same possible flaws in terms of drivers etc, but still seems to be worth using.

I would also welcome 3 units to Bedford-Bletchley, which is similarly standalone in terms of LM drivers/guards. That way we could perhaps have a spare unit at Bletchley and solve the reliability problem caused by having to get a new unit from Tyseley every time there's a failure.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Probably a more sensible choice would be to use it in place of the Bubble Car, which has all the same possible flaws in terms of drivers etc, but still seems to be worth using.

I would also welcome 3 units to Bedford-Bletchley, which is similarly standalone in terms of LM drivers/guards. That way we could perhaps have a spare unit at Bletchley and solve the reliability problem caused by having to get a new unit from Tyseley every time there's a failure.

Prince Risboro-Aylesbury is probably a better bet as it can be kept captive within Aylesbury drivers depot, but is a short 40mph branch line a suitable shakedown test area. As you suggeted Bedford-Bletchley is probaly a more suitable piece of railway.

 

[sprinterguy]

Until East-West Rail becomes active I agree that it wouldn't be a bad idea to use the Bedford - Bletchley branch as a proving ground for a small number of D78s, as well as Princes Risborough to Aylesbury with Chiltern. Frees up a couple of Sprinter units for LM. There's a shed already there that could be brought back into use, surely, and is it just Bletchley drivers that are passed to work the branch (Can't remember now)? Even if it isn't then it's no different to having a group of drivers and guards trained up on 150s and 153s specifically for the branch as at present. As Neil Williams says, having a spare unit available on site to swap over would be invaluable, and it wouldn't be a tremendous stretch for an engineer to drive over in a van from Long Marston if required.

London Midland were, after all, receptive to the idea of Pre Metro Operations use of the Parry People Movers on the Stourbridge Town branch.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think you will find it is you and others who are doing this project down before it has even started and given it a childish nickname rather than me joining anyones marketing department.

I would suggest that anyone who knows what an incubus actually is would NEVER suggest that it is a childish entity..hock:

 

[DasLunatic]

Actually, on the subject of the Stourbridge branch, would a two-car D78 be any good down there? Or would it be too big and not economically viable?

 

[WatcherZero]

Would require another depot shed to be built.

 

[DasLunatic]

No it wouldn't. Extend the service to Kidderminster and that's your depot shed sorted.
Seeing how Hagley and Blakedown are served half-hourly, let Chiltern run theirs through fast and have the D78s pick up their services.
Additionally Stourbridge Tn.'s platform is (I think) long enough for four coaches. Simply pop a canopy up and there's another 'shed'.

 

[47802]

For it to be worthwhile shooter and co is going to want a big order for these things not a few units here and there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For it to be worthwhile hooter and co is going to want a big order for these things not a few units here and there.

Was it automatically assumed by Vivarail when this idea was first launched that Northern Rail were the obvious contenders for their Pacer replacement requirements, so it was, in their eyes, cost-effective to go ahead with the single unit trial testing programme?

 

[northwichcat]

Was it automatically assumed by Vivarail when this idea was first launched that Northern Rail were the obvious contenders for their Pacer replacement requirements, so it was, in their eyes, cost-effective to go ahead with the single unit trial testing programme?

Vivarail thought they saw a gap in the market.

Angel said the 142s would be withdrawn by December 2019 and they won't attempt to make them accessible to keep them in service for longer.

The Coalition government kept banging on about no need for new diesel trains as electrification was the solution. However, it was obvious to anyone not wearing rose tinted glasses that electrification alone could not result in the 142s being withdrawn by 2019. Finally DfT admitted that when Claire Perry commented on a short term solution being needed.

Vivarail unveiled their D-Train proposal at a rail conference in Huddersfield - possibly why they specifically chose the Penistone Line for a case study. Once the shortlist of Northern bidders had been selected Shooter claimed they were all very enthusiastic about the D-Train idea and were set to propose to use them on routes in the far north of the franchise area. However, Tony Miles posted on wnxx that wasn't the case at all and bidders had simply asked for more information so they could constructively dismiss the idea of using D-Trains.

The Northern ITT doesn't appear to allow D-Trains unless they are delivered in addition to 120 proper new carriages (which can't be rebuilt from old trains) and DfT decides that they are 'new build' not a cascade of existing trains.

 

[mbonwick]

Based on the evidence of the crash test carried out, there's no way Vivarail consider the D-Trains "new build" as the test isn't compliant to the standard...

 

[47802]

Based on the evidence of the crash test carried out, there's no way Vivarail consider the D-Trains "new build" as the test isn't compliant to the standard...

Well unless there is considerable back heel from the DFT there is no way they could be considered as part of the 120 new build for Northern, the line about newly built (not reusing components from existing Rolling Stock) is pretty clear.