Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled Stock

[47802]

Sounds like they need to tweak the timetable to me then.

Well it will take a while for passengers to get the hang of the doors especially on a route that hasn't really had them for years over most of the route, and pulling/pushing 4 coaches with a DBSO instead of equiv of about 7 at the moment might help.

 

[Wearhead]

Today saw the start of Northerns “improved” service from Carlisle to Barrow along the Cumbrian Coast via Sellafield, using a Loco hauled train of four carriages to replace the hated Pacers. It is probably a day that both Northern and its contractor DRS will wish to forget.

First train of the day left Carlisle on time at 0842, comprising DRS 37423 on one end and 37609 on the other, clearly the management at DRS had insisted that Nothing Could Possibly Go Wrong. Unfortunately, things started to go wrong very quickly after leaving Carlisle, the train was 3 minutes late at Dalston ( 4 miles away), then 8 minutes late at Whitehaven and finally reaching Barrow - in - Furness 13 minutes late. The return trip was 14 minutes late in starting, and staggered back into Carlisle at 1458, 32 minutes late.

Now it gets worse. The DRS train left Carlisle at 1502, 27 minutes late and only 13 minutes ahead of the next scheduled Pacer (also to Barrow?!!) which was delayed by 7 minutes, presumably to save face. Again the DRS train was 34 minutes late at Whitehaven, with the delayed Pacer only 16 minutes behind. The Pacer was timetabled to depart Whitehaven at 1623, the DRS did’nt leave Whitehaven until 1624, surely a complete waste of time and money. Eventually the DRS train reached Barrow at 1804, 42 minutes late, with the Pacer squeeling in at 1813, a mere 24 minutes late, and no doubt carrying a large amount of Cumbrian fresh air!
I will update the final run of the day in due course, although I normally go to bed around midnight, so it may be tomorrow before I have all the timingshttp://www.railforums.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif You can, of course, follow the whole sorry saga on Realtime Trains.

So what went wrong? Two powerful Class 37’s pulling a load of 140 tons (according to RTT) should have been a doddle. Was the timetabling wrong? The DRS loco haul had already been given an extra 15 minutes (30 minutes on the final run of the day) over the routine Pacer timings. My first thought is that there seems to have been a problem with arrival / departure times, the standard 1 minute at smaller stations drifted to two, then three and at Sellafield four mintutes between stop and start. Teething troubles?

This is my first post, so there may be other factors that I am not aware of.

 

[yorksrob]

Well it will take a while for passengers to get the hang of the doors especially on a route that hasn't really had them for years over most of the route, and pulling/pushing 4 coaches with a DBSO instead of equiv of about 7 at the moment might help.

People will perhaps need to relearn to close the doors when they get off. Is there a reason why they've not got a DBSO?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... Is there a reason why they've not got a DBSO?

The DBSOs are not ready for service yet

 

[richa2002]

The first day of an operation like this will often be troublesome. I'm sure it will bed down as familiarity grows.

 

[Whistler40145]

Not quite sure what the problem is, but at present it's being crewed with a DRS Driver & Guard with a Northern Conductor for tickets, Northern's Barrow Drivers not yet passed out on 37s.

 

[87015]

Nearly all of it seems to be going down as station overtime. If i was a betting man I'd be wagering station faff is off the scale, orange jackets all round no doubt.

The first services appear to have kept time much better, and thought they were supposed to be the busy ones as Sellafield commuters? Of course once you start to lose it on such a line you are heading straight down the slippery slope timekeeping wise.

 

[sprinterguy]

Note that the DRS loco hauled sets have not been introduced to replace the Pacers. The loco hauled sets have been introduced to release class 156 Super Sprinter DMUs, which are the usual traction on the route alongside class 153 Sprinters, for Transpennine Express use between Manchester and Blackpool.

There has only been one out and back diagram for a Pacer up the Cumbrian coast in recent times, and unless that diagram has changed for this timetable period then it would not be following the 14:35 from Carlisle down the coast.

Might the 15:13 have been delayed due to the length of signalling sections at the northern end of the Cumbrian Coast route, rather than "to save face"?

This has been a bit of an inauspicious start for the first day of the loco hauled trains, but at least one set has run to time today and these can probably be deemed to be teething troubles.

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose, at least the train wasn't cancelled (which has happened a couple of times on Southbound afternoon trains for me).

Looking forward to things bedding in though.

 

[yorksrob]

The DBSOs are not ready for service yet

Cheers - at least they're on their way.

 

[47802]

So what went wrong? Two powerful Class 37’s pulling a load of 140 tons (according to RTT) should have been a doddle. Was the timetabling wrong? The DRS loco haul had already been given an extra 15 minutes (30 minutes on the final run of the day) over the routine Pacer timings. My first thought is that there seems to have been a problem with arrival / departure times, the standard 1 minute at smaller stations drifted to two, then three and at Sellafield four mintutes between stop and start. Teething troubles?

This is my first post, so there may be other factors that I am not aware of.

Well for starters as the trains are running T&T instead of a single Loco with a DBSO driving trailer which are not yet ready, so you've got a loco pulling more likely 240 tons with the dead or ticking over Loco on the back. Passengers will need to get the hang of manual doors again, when I was on the WAG MK3 train summer relief a couple of years ago a confused passenger wanting to get off was looking for the button to press.

Having said that the diagram you refer to is fairly intensive and more suited to a unit really, perhaps this working should go back to a unit until a DBSO is available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't they be better on express services elsewhere to free up a DMU for the stopping service on the Coast?

 

[CC 72100]

The other difference of course with the Cumbrian stock is that the window bars have been installed on the inside of the doors rather than the outside, however the vertical bars means less impediment on getting your shoulder in the right place to use the handle.

Apologies for the daft question, so the window is essentially the 'outside' side of the window bars, in other words, you must put your hand through the bars to open the window and then through the bars and the opened window to use the handle?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. A very odd way of doing it and quite awkward.

 

[Wearhead]

Note that the DRS loco hauled sets have not been introduced to replace the Pacers. The loco hauled sets have been introduced to release class 156 Super Sprinter DMUs, which are the usual traction on the route alongside class 153 Sprinters, for Transpennine Express use between Manchester and Blackpool.

There has only been one out and back diagram for a Pacer up the Cumbrian coast in recent times, and unless that diagram has changed for this timetable period then it would not be following the 14:35 from Carlisle down the coast.

Might the 15:13 have been delayed due to the length of signalling sections at the northern end of the Cumbrian Coast route, rather than "to save face"?

This has been a bit of an inauspicious start for the first day of the loco hauled trains, but at least one set has run to time today and these can probably be deemed to be teething troubles.

A fair point. I was using the word "Pacer" as a general term of abuse for the cold, noisy, bumpy experience of travelling on the Cumbrian coast line over the last 10 years. However, as you say, this has been an inauspicious start to the loco hauled services. We are not flying to Mars here, its a small change to a rural branch line, the professional railway could, and should, have done better.

Well for starters as the trains are running T&T instead of a single Loco with a DBSO driving trailer which are not yet ready, so you've got a loco pulling more likely 240 tons with the dead or ticking over Loco on the back. Passengers will need to get the hang of manual doors again, when I was on the WAG MK3 train summer relief a couple of years ago a confused passenger wanting to get off was looking for the button to press.

Having said that the diagram you refer to is fairly intensive and more suited to a unit really, perhaps this working should go back to a unit until a DBSO is available.

All good points from a railway point of view, but us stupid passengers just want a comfortable train that turns up on time. Today was a disaster, please fix it.

UPDATE: The ex Barrow 1731 departed 42 minutes late at 1813, arriving Carlisle at 2117, 46 minutes late. This is awful, and plays directly into the hands of the road lobby.

Surely someone, somewhere, realised that this new timetable wouldn't work with the contracted facilities, staff and timetabling allocated to it.

Will anyone stand up?

 

[BantamMenace]

Wouldn't they be better on express services elsewhere to free up a DMU for the stopping service on the Coast?

I mentioned some time back that the services should do an out and back on the S&C to Leeds as oppose to the coast.

 

[Whistler40145]

I think that'd be a better use of the stock.

 

[37038]

So what went wrong? Two powerful Class 37’s pulling a load of 140 tons (according to RTT) should have been a doddle. Was the timetabling wrong? The DRS loco haul had already been given an extra 15 minutes (30 minutes on the final run of the day) over the routine Pacer timings. My first thought is that there seems to have been a problem with arrival / departure times, the standard 1 minute at smaller stations drifted to two, then three and at Sellafield four mintutes between stop and start. Teething troubles?

This is my first post, so there may be other factors that I am not aware of.

Few points to clear up.

37423-9507-6122-5810-6173-37609
37419-9527-5995-5971-6001-37605

were the sets so leading 37 had 240t to sort out. Now that's no issue in the slightest for anything other than the weakest 37 (194/218/605 spring to mind although the latter seems to have done well).

The issue here is that units can accelerate a hell of a lot quicker than a 37 with a lot of dead weight hanging on. Especially on a route where pax aren't used to opening/shutting doors and guards need to get used to things. The longest diagram has 30+ intermediate stops as well. Introducing a DBSO lessens weight for the single loco to handle which will help. Until the second DBSO is finished entirely, it'll be best to get through wired stock sorted for the TnT set. This way, both locos will be powering and things will get moving a hell of a lot quicker.

 

[yorksrob]

I mentioned some time back that the services should do an out and back on the S&C to Leeds as oppose to the coast.

Would the freed up 158's actually fit round the coast? Might have to do some additional stock shuffling otherwise.

 

[DarloRich]

So what went wrong? Two powerful Class 37’s pulling a load of 140 tons (according to RTT) should have been a doddle. Was the timetabling wrong? The DRS loco haul had already been given an extra 15 minutes (30 minutes on the final run of the day) over the routine Pacer timings. My first thought is that there seems to have been a problem with arrival / departure times, the standard 1 minute at smaller stations drifted to two, then three and at Sellafield four mintutes between stop and start. Teething troubles?

This is my first post, so there may be other factors that I am not aware of.

i would imagine our Cumbrian correspondents are having trouble remembering to close the doors. It is really easy to loose a few minutes at each unstaffed station making sure all the doors are closed then getting back to the correct door to give the driver the nod

 

[Whistler40145]

Presuming those 158s aren't PTE sponsored?

If not, I'd shuffle the fleet around with 156s on the Coast & 158s going to FTPE for Blackpool North to Manchester Airport. Another alternative is to put 156s on York to Blackpool North, releasing 158s to FTPE.

 

[158722]

So what went wrong? Two powerful Class 37’s pulling a load of 140 tons (according to RTT) should have been a doddle. Was the timetabling wrong? The DRS loco haul had already been given an extra 15 minutes (30 minutes on the final run of the day) over the routine Pacer timings. My first thought is that there seems to have been a problem with arrival / departure times, the standard 1 minute at smaller stations drifted to two, then three and at Sellafield four mintutes between stop and start. Teething troubles?

As has been commented on elsewhere, one set was accompanied by Northern managers/staff, for reasons unconfirmed, but possibly checking arrangements at stations etc. First day aberration?

This morning's 2C32 & 2C33 have not been any later than 3mins at any point during their runs and both seem to have made on-time arrivals, so a much more positive day so far. Long may it continue...

 

[47802]

As has been commented on elsewhere, one set was accompanied by Northern managers/staff, for reasons unconfirmed, but possibly checking arrangements at stations etc. First day aberration?

This morning's 2C32 & 2C33 have not been any later than 3mins at any point during their runs and both seem to have made on-time arrivals, so a much more positive day so far. Long may it continue...

To early in the day to read anything into it yet the first trips were not heavily delayed yesterday

 

[crehld]

Presuming those 158s aren't PTE sponsored?

If not, I'd shuffle the fleet around with 156s on the Coast & 158s going to FTPE for Blackpool North to Manchester Airport. Another alternative is to put 156s on York to Blackpool North, releasing 158s to FTPE.

I believe the 158s are on the S&C as part of an agreement with the Settle Carlisle Partnership.

I really don't get this door thing. Manual doors are not uncommon on the network, nor are door handles that obscure. I assume the sensible thing has been done announcements have been given out asking passengers to close the doors?

 

[47802]

I believe the 158s are on the S&C as part of an agreement with the Settle Carlisle Partnership.

I really don't get this door thing. Manual doors are not uncommon on the network, nor are door handles that obscure. I assume the sensible thing has been done announcements have been given out asking passengers to close the doors?

Depends where in the country you are in the North West what other Slam Door stock is there? only these trains and the recently reintroduced Loco Hauled Arriva Train, added to which how easy is it proving to open the doors with the Window Bars?

Set 2 (2C40) seems to be doing a bit better than yesterday so far 5 late at Sellafield.

 

[berneyarms]

A fair point. I was using the word "Pacer" as a general term of abuse for the cold, noisy, bumpy experience of travelling on the Cumbrian coast line over the last 10 years. However, as you say, this has been an inauspicious start to the loco hauled services. We are not flying to Mars here, its a small change to a rural branch line, the professional railway could, and should, have done better.

All good points from a railway point of view, but us stupid passengers just want a comfortable train that turns up on time. Today was a disaster, please fix it.

UPDATE: The ex Barrow 1731 departed 42 minutes late at 1813, arriving Carlisle at 2117, 46 minutes late. This is awful, and plays directly into the hands of the road lobby.

Surely someone, somewhere, realised that this new timetable wouldn't work with the contracted facilities, staff and timetabling allocated to it.

Will anyone stand up?

With any new timetable/service there is going to be a bedding in period, and possibly initial teething problems.

While day 1 didn't go particularly well, I think you will have to give it several days or a week before rushing to judgements like the ones that you have posted.

Performance appears vastly better so far today.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I mentioned some time back that the services should do an out and back on the S&C to Leeds as oppose to the coast.

It would be a better experience for passengers if the loco hauled stock was used on the S & C, also fewer stops to worry about opening/closing doors, but the way the units inter-work with non S & C services probably precludes this. In the past, the S & C loco hauled service operated into Leeds in the morning from Harrogate and returned there in the evening peak IIRC. It was more to do with Leeds commuters than S & C leisure travellers.

I shall be giving the coast service a try in a couple of weeks, I'm sure they'll have it sorted by then.

Can't help but think there are still gaps in the service around Sellafield shift times though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All good points from a railway point of view, but us stupid passengers just want a comfortable train that turns up on time. Today was a disaster, please fix it.

UPDATE: The ex Barrow 1731 departed 42 minutes late at 1813, arriving Carlisle at 2117, 46 minutes late. This is awful, and plays directly into the hands of the road lobby.

Surely someone, somewhere, realised that this new timetable wouldn't work with the contracted facilities, staff and timetabling allocated to it.

Will anyone stand up?

Not sure what point you are trying to make - both sets are contracted out etc. One was on time, one was delayed. As for the road lobby, that is in the hands of Reays or Stagecoach - neither of whom have done anything spectacular to serve Sellafield, or indeed many of the communities around the coast. Look at the times for the 85/86/87 workers service - upto 2 hours to get to work, the same back in the evening. I know people down south do this sort of long distance commuting but it is far rarer up north.

 

[samj]

It wouldn't be possible as there is no diagram that would start/finish at Carlisle if it was to work on the S/C based on current diagrams anyway..

 

[Cheds]

Excuse my ignorance - but how does one know which services in the timetable are (expected to be) loco hauled?

Many thanks

 

[158722]

It wouldn't be possible as there is no diagram that would start/finish at Carlisle if it was to work on the S/C based on current diagrams anyway..

I would suggest there is a perfect diagram, which could be made with only one or two slight jiggles to unit diagrams.

Car 0550
Lds 0837
Lds 0947
Car 1217

I presume the normal return working of the 0837 Leeds arrival is the 0849, hence the unit which usually does this diagram is available for extra capacity into Leeds in the morning peak until required to take up its 0849 turn. Naturally the unit off the 0947 ex-Leeds is available for the rest of the day.

Car 1506
Lds 1740
Lds 1806
Car 2052

The next departure from Carlisle after arrival at 1217 is the 1404, but this can be covered using the 1329 arrival, hence the loco/stock could go back on the 1506, thus picking up the 1806 peak time return working off Leeds.

This turn covers both peaks in and out of Leeds, provides a comfortably timed day out for tourists (0947 to 1740, with a 3 hour break in Carlisle), could be worked by Carlisle crews out and back in one shift (assuming they sign all the way to Leeds?) and releases a 158 for virtually all-day plus I have a feeling a 153 might be bolted on to one of those peak services.