FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[RJ]

As a professional trainer, I feel the need to defend my colleagues - there are some bad eggs but on the whole very few trainers set out to do a poor job. Usually we have to make the best of incomplete and/or conflicting information and there is rarely enough time or money to do the job properly. I know it's the case in my industry and I've had conversations with other trainers and suspect that it is universally true.

So how is it people are on the front line talking absolute garbage, with p*ss poor attitude to boot? I started in a ticket office role when I knew next to nothing about tickets, I'd certainly never come across time restrictions before. The guy that trained me taught us that knowing where to look things up was just as important as having the knowledge itself. I also learned from him that nobody knows everything about tickets. It's true. xx years of experience counts for nothing if you're not aware that ATOC and pricing departments constantly make changes to validity.

The other day, I bought a ticket off a CrossCountry guard. I asked him something about an open return and he stated that the return portion is not valid for break of journey, save for a maximum of one necessary overnight stay en route. I said "really? I thought you could break as many times as you like until it expires" He told me that he'd been in the job for 30 years and that he knew what he was talking about. I said "Well, I guess you learn something new every day!" and left him to it.

It's all about mentality, that's what trainers should really be honing in on. I've forgotten most of what I learned in the ticketing school and don't remember more than a tiny number of restrictions. I don't even remember the ones for the lines I work on - but these things are nothing that can't be looked up quickly. I prefer it this way, because at least I know I'm giving out up to date, correct information.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was, to be fair to him, a point just after the so-called simplification where the wording on both Anytime and Off Peak strongly implied that only one BoJ was permitted. I believe this was changed later to clarify that this was not intentional.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody should ever be criticised for saying they don't know something, and seeking to find out. Anyone that does this when I make an enquiry gets a strong thumbs up, even if I might be inconvenienced by having to wait a bit longer. These people are nearly always proud of the fact that they've gained some new knowledge. Both people 'part company' satisfied.

People who don't know, but bluff, and then get to a point where they can't now admit not knowing, so get more angry and often do some quite ridiculous things, are people I've unfortunately experienced far too often.

I used to do mystery shopping (phone shops) many years ago, so even today when I go to a shop (not necessarily phones, but anything in the world of tech that I'm somewhat clued up on) and ask for advice or deliberately ask questions to test their knowledge, I can see people continue to fall into this trap. They've said something wrong, expecting to have you accept it. You question then, and now they're stuck and get defensive. They stick to their guns, but get shot down. Do they admit defeat, or try and save face by fighting to the death?

The good salespeople are those who don't get into that mess in the first place. The others are chancers who only survive in their jobs because a lot of the people they deal with actually believe them. Not too dissimilar to those on the railway, or in the police, councils, the health service - you name it.

 

[Starmill]

No, no, and no.

Shocking attitude and ridiculous statement.

I sincerely hope you have nothing to do with revenue whatsoever, or you can land your employer in quite a lot of bother.

Who sells tickets from an Avantix at Didcot? It's probably worth pointing put that there are other ticket outlets that don't print restriction codes on tickets, and that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the person buying them!

 

[bnm]

Who sells tickets from an Avantix at Didcot? It's probably worth pointing put that there are other ticket outlets that don't print restriction codes on tickets, and that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the person buying them!

I buy my tickets at the earliest opportunity, as I'm required to do by legislation. That means on the train after boarding from my local station. My local station has no ticket buying facilities, so it's Avantix on board. I'm not going out of my way to buy my tickets in this way, as was assumed earlier by secludedsfx. I know what I need for my journey, at the best price (splitting of course, as allowed by NRCoC 19), so I ask for, and am sold, what I request. Buying the tickets has never been an issue. Using them on the other hand...

That Avantix doesn't yet print the restriction code on the ticket is neither here nor there.

 

[Busaholic]

I think your last sentence, jonmorris0844, could well be close to the truth.

I'm splitting at Didcot, and whilst I am actually travelling into Kent rather than using the F3 and C4 tickets to start/end short at PAD, I can well believe that many staff take exception to passengers saving a few bob.

I was asked on Wednesday what time I left Dartford. I answered, 'around half two and I've taken a break here at Paddington for a bite to eat'. What if I'd said, 'ticket is valid now so none of your business when I started my journey'?

How dare you seek to take advantage of FGW, whose writ is so holy that it is guarded by a phalanx of security guards at First HQ in Aberdeen? Did you not know that every fare variation/permutation has been worked on tirelessly by minions to ensure that nobody short of an IQ of 260 could ever possess the right ticket, unless it was for the maximum possible price, and then only if that person was in possession of every available logarithm and computer code? Since the demise of the BNP, where do you think those gentlemen responsible for enforcement could find a job to suit their talents other than as FGW travelling ticket inspectors, having been specially retrained to ensure that any lingering human decency has been expunged totally?
In short,sir, we do not want customers like you on our trains, showing up the ignorance and ineptitude of our staff, so kindly catch a coach in future as you bring our great organisation into disrepute.

Chairman Mao O'Toole.

Extracted from The Little Red Book of Rules for Train Customers, 17607th edition, 569345 pages.

 

[bnm]

How dare you seek to take advantage of FGW, whose writ is so holy that it is guarded by a phalanx of security guards at First HQ in Aberdeen? Did you not know that every fare variation/permutation has been worked on tirelessly by minions to ensure that nobody short of an IQ of 260 could ever possess the right ticket, unless it was for the maximum possible price, and then only if that person was in possession of every available logarithm and computer code? Since the demise of the BNP, where do you think those gentlemen responsible for enforcement could find a job to suit their talents other than as FGW travelling ticket inspectors, having been specially retrained to ensure that any lingering human decency has been expunged totally?
In short,sir, we do not want customers like you on our trains, showing up the ignorance and ineptitude of our staff, so kindly catch a coach in future as you bring our great organisation into disrepute.

Chairman Mao O'Toole.

Extracted from The Little Red Book of Rules for Train Customers, 17607th edition, 569345 pages.

*like* *like* *like*

Chairman Mao O'Toole. Anointed successor of Sir Moir of Lockhead.

 

[najaB]

It's all about mentality, that's what trainers should really be honing in on. I've forgotten most of what I learned in the ticketing school and don't remember more than a tiny number of restrictions. I don't even remember the ones for the lines I work on - but these things are nothing that can't be looked up quickly. I prefer it this way, because at least I know I'm giving out up to date, correct information.

I have no specific knowledge of FGW, but something that is true of all job-specific training is the 70:20:10 model. In a nutshell a person's performance in a role is 70% what they've experienced and heard from colleagues, 20% management coaching and 10% formal training. So no matter what they're taught on day one, if management and their co-workers have the 'we are God' attitude they will eventually get it too.

 

[infobleep]

If a job is done the way it's supposed to be, people will be grateful and word will spread, not necessarily through regular internet posts.

A job done badly will attract complaints. I'd rather see (justifiably) upset customers release their anger through their keyboards than take it out on staff in person. It's lousy management and poor quality trainers which allow unequipped staff to be unleashed on their customers unsupervised. Public complaints might be the only way they find out about the problems their colleagues cause.

One ticket window clerk at Harrow and Wealdstone was in the office after 4 days of training when I asked for a gold card discount to be added to my Oyster card. Needless to say he didn't know how to do it.

 

[Hadders]

The problem (not specific to the railways) is that organisations recruit staff that do not possess the behavioural traits to work in a service environment.

These staff then think their primary role is to catch people out, be obstructive and cause inconvenience to customers rather than to engage and provide a helpful service and advice to customers.

Technical knowledge can be taught, behaviour and attitude cannot. It's not the fault of the staff - they shouldn't have been recruited in the first place. It's not the fault of the trainers. It's the fault of higher management who attempt to do things on the cheap.

 

[najaB]

Technical knowledge can be taught, behaviour and attitude cannot. It's not the fault of the staff - they shouldn't have been recruited in the first place. It's not the fault of the trainers. It's the fault of higher management who attempt to do things on the cheap.

This rings so many bells.

 

[SouthStand]

We don't really need to spend lots of money reprogramming gates so that they can be smarter than they are currently. What we need is the right attitude from some staff. It doesn't have to cost anything. A free solution is available.

No, what we need is a ticketing system that isn't so f****** complicated.

 

[bb21]

No, what we need is a ticketing system that isn't so f****** complicated.

... but that is not going to be a free solution. There will also be lots of losers passenger-wise, not just fares experts.

 

[DownSouth]

It's very difficult for the vast majority of staff who are a credit to their profession in a customer-facing role because it is always the unpleasant experiences that stick in your mind. I can vouch for the fact that most staff from all over the country are easy-going, lovely and a pleasure to deal with, but there are certain pockets of the network where there seems to be a cultural issue with many staff who work there: Sheffield ticket office being one, and FGW Thames Valley stations being the other off the top of my head. Having travelled extensively all over the country, I don't think I have experienced anything as bad as the rubbish served up at these places.

Of course, there is certainly the fact that it's generally only the exceptional experiences which are remembered, not the normal ones. If a customer service interaction goes well without being either a negative experience or so spectacularly good that it's worthy of note, the memory of it simply fades into oblivion.

In addition, there is the problem of the response to an exceptional customer service experience. Research in Australia (which is generally accepted as having very similar consumer behaviour as Britain) a few years ago showed that customers will tell an average of 14 other people about a disappointing customer service experience, but they will only tell 2 others about an exceptionally good experience.

With the increase in social media usage since then, I expect that the number of times a poor experience is shared may have stayed the same or even decreased, but that the number of people listening/reading to each 'retelling' of it would have increased by at least one order of magnitude.

No, what we need is a ticketing system that isn't so f****** complicated.

... but that is not going to be a free solution. There will also be lots of losers passenger-wise, not just fares experts.

But the impact can be mitigated.

If you design the new system using arbitrary price units and then scale it up to make sure the total amount of revenue is the same as the present system, there will inevitably be some for whom the new system is cheaper (winners) and some for whom the fares get more expensive (losers). That's a fact of life whenever anything changes.

However, given that the vast majority of journeys are done using 'normal' point-to-point tickets under the current system, it should be fairly easy to work out who the majority of the winners and losers are. These are the people who should be considered when creating a fair ticketing system, not 'fare experts' who can game the system.

For the losers, their fares could rise from the nearest equivalent current fares at a slightly higher pace than the most appropriate measure of inflation, so that they will gradually be weaned off the cross-subsidies as their fares get closer to the fair prices without being hit by a single major price hike.

For the winners, their fares could rise from the current equivalents at a slower rate than inflation, giving them real price cuts but spread over a number of years.

It can be done and it can be done right - where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Hadders]

No, what we need is a ticketing system that isn't so f****** complicated.

In an ideal world yes, but in reality if it happened fares would increase and that would not be in passengers interests.

 

[yorkie]

No, what we need is a ticketing system that isn't so f****** complicated.

Feel free to post your suggestions in a new thread.

Others have tried but so far no-one has yet come up with a new system that is simpler, doesn't increase fares, and doesn't decrease revenues.

In the mean time people need to be prepared to check validities if they are not absolutely totally certain.

 

[hussra]

The problem (not specific to the railways) is that organisations recruit staff that do not possess the behavioural traits to work in a service environment.

I possess a wonderful book, "Railway Management at Stations" by E.B. Ivatts of the Midland Great Western Railway (5th Edition, 1910). On the subject of ticket inspection he starts well, but then it starts to get a little odd:

The examination and collection of tickets, either at a ticket platform or an exit gate, is a process which should be done with the greatest possible speed, consistent with accuracy. A fumbling ticket collector unnecessarily detaining a train full of passengers is a deplorable sight. Either old men or youths are generally unfit for the duty, unless where an old man has been always a ticket collector. Active, intelligent young men, of over twenty years of age, are most suitable. A man with a prominence of the forehead just over the eyes will make a quick ticket collector. By passing the finger up the front of the nose to where the nose joins the forehead, in some men, the skull at this point, which may be termed the root of the nose, will be found to protrude, and, in some instances, form quite a lump. Men of this type are quick, ready and observant, and most good detectives have this development. If the hair of the head and whiskers also is fine in texture and quality, so will the owner be the more incisive and perfecting in character. A ploughman cannot be expected to make a watch, nor will a clumsy, lolling man make a ticket collector.

 

[Phil from Mon]

I possess a wonderful book, "Railway Management at Stations" by E.B. Ivatts of the Midland Great Western Railway (5th Edition, 1910). On the subject of ticket inspection he starts well, but then it starts to get a little odd:

The wonderful Victorian science of phrenology. I saw an exhibition once showing how criminals and other undesirable types could be identified solely by the shapes of their heads. Not sure when it was eventually discredited.

 

[Chew Chew]

I've had problems with a phone network recently when trying to buy prepay handsets. The store staff refuse to sell them on prepay, despite having a price and it being advertised online as available.

I Tweeted the network, to be told that I can definitely buy on prepay if there's stock. Went back, showed the Tweet and got told it's out of stock (despite having been outside the store and not seen anyone buy one).

The second time (today) it's happened to a number of people, so I went to get a statement from the company via the press office. I was told that everyone can DEFINITELY buy the handsets on prepay and stores were all sent a bulletin earlier today, but what do you know - people are still being refused in store.

Store managers clearly want to hit targets for connections, so are willing to go against advice from head office and it's somewhat similar to FGW with people on the ground also thinking they can ignore what they're told as they know better, or perhaps thinking it's not correct that people should be allowed to travel in the evening peak with an off peak ticket.

Sorry for taking this thread O/T but that wouldn't be getting a Moto G 4G from 3 would it?

They've been refusing to sell me one in Aberdeen for 2 weeks.

 

[infobleep]

I possess a wonderful book, "Railway Management at Stations" by E.B. Ivatts of the Midland Great Western Railway (5th Edition, 1910). On the subject of ticket inspection he starts well, but then it starts to get a little odd:

I love that quote. How times have changed!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The wonderful Victorian science of phrenology. I saw an exhibition once showing how criminals and other undesirable types could be identified solely by the shapes of their heads. Not sure when it was eventually discredited.

The procedure was still to be found in university text books from the early 1960's, though by that time it was beginning to include the influence of some hormonal imbalances on a person's appearance as well as on a person's behaviour. But that view is equally unsatisfactory in differentiating causality from correspondence or expression from experience (as are current views on the causes of behavior and the corresponding reported experience).

Sometimes I think we just discard one flawed theory in favour of another flawed theory, when really, we'd be better informed by admitting that we just don't know why something is the way it is.

As for the most effective physical appearance of ticket inspectors, could I put in a good word for the most good-looking inspectors, please, and failing that (which usually is the case), for the most cheerful and friendly inspectors? (A genuine smile makes a lot of difference, whatever the law of the day, or the psychology of the day might try to tell us).

 

[jon0844]

Sorry for taking this thread O/T but that wouldn't be getting a Moto G 4G from 3 would it?

They've been refusing to sell me one in Aberdeen for 2 weeks.

Right network, wrong phone!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edit: Right, in order to get a phone I've been struggling to get, I'm off to Reading to pick one up from the manufacturer direct!

Anyway, I'm waiting to get a text to say it's ready so I'm currently sitting around at Paddington waiting to see what train I need to get. It's possible it will be after 4 or 4.30.

So what so I do? Yup, I asked if my ticket would be valid this evening and guess what? Only on some trains.

My ticket is Hatfield to Reading, restriction Y4. Apparently that means I am restricted to slow trains only, as the route overrides the any permitted bit.

He showed me his somewhat worn bit of paper on the wall and said which trains I could take, which seemed to be about every 40 minutes or go give or take. High speed trains are all out.

I showed the national rail website and the restrictions (basically no train before 0931 for me) and he said it could be out of date.

Yes, a bit of paper printed God knows when is likely newer than a freshly loaded web page.

I wasn't arguing but the gateline assistant was keen to get rid of me, and as he was becoming dismissive a RPI came over who checked the code for me and said it was fine. He apologised and was very friendly (initials SE!) and said he'd make a note of it and feed it back.

So there we have it. The paperwork they have on their wall is like the Bible and can't be questioned.

 

[Greenback]

As I may have said before, this is similar to the attitudes I encountered when I started working for FGW in the late 1990's. Bits of paper, undated, unsigned and often unreferenced but clearly well out of date were the unquestionable point of reference as to what was allowed and what wasn't. These bits of paper were attached to desks at the window, all over the walls in the back office, and most people had forgotten where they originally came from!

The manager had no idea about ticket codes, ticket restrictions or the Routeing Guide, so was no help at all when it came to providing guidance to staff. The supervisors were well intentioned but had no time to check for update sin the briefs, as they were run off their feet trying to cope with maintaining the ticket machines, keeping the queues down as much as they could, and taking money off XC guards and catering staff!

The few of us who bothered to check things properly ended up in a lot of arguments with more senior staff who thought they knew everything!

 

[jon0844]

At least I picked a time where it was pretty dead at the station. I'm on a train now so the problem has gone away, and most of my travel on FGW will be going out of PAD in the morning so I might not be in a position to 'test' them again anytime soon.

Said RPI who helped me was now at the gate instead of the previous guy, so he'd be the one to go to!

PS. I stepped into first class for a peek at the new interior. Wow! Next time I travel I'm really going to try and justify first class!!

 

[RJ]

The new First Class is an amazing travel experience as far as UK rail travel goes.

 

[Starmill]

It's plush alright Have a hunt around for the elusive cheap Advance First Tickets

 

[bnm]

Anyway, I'm waiting to get a text to say it's ready so I'm currently sitting around at Paddington waiting to see what train I need to get. It's possible it will be after 4 or 4.30.

So what so I do? Yup, I asked if my ticket would be valid this evening and guess what? Only on some trains.

My ticket is Hatfield to Reading, restriction Y4. Apparently that means I am restricted to slow trains only, as the route overrides the any permitted bit.

He showed me his somewhat worn bit of paper on the wall and said which trains I could take, which seemed to be about every 40 minutes or go give or take. High speed trains are all out.

I showed the national rail website and the restrictions (basically no train before 0931 for me) and he said it could be out of date.

Yes, a bit of paper printed God knows when is likely newer than a freshly loaded web page.

I wasn't arguing but the gateline assistant was keen to get rid of me, and as he was becoming dismissive a RPI came over who checked the code for me and said it was fine. He apologised and was very friendly (initials SE!) and said he'd make a note of it and feed it back.

And so it continues. :roll:

I tried to speak with Ian Monks (FGW Station Manager) at Paddington on Tuesday. We've had email exchanges attempting to arrange a meeting but he's cancelled on me twice. On Tuesday he was apparently availably but sent down the Duty Station Manager, Dorothy, instead.

I got the continued platitudes that the problem is being addressed, but that's patently not the case as staff are continuing to give out incorrect information.

My complaint to London Travelwatch has been drafted but I'm awaiting some input from other travellers who've been denied travel and/or given incorrect information about their ticket's validity. The more I can show that my problems are not isolated incidents the better.

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[LexyBoy]

A while ago I was getting an evening train with an inboundary Day Travelcard and a BZ6-Reading ticket. The gateline assistant took my Travelcard off me when I showed him both tickets, saying don't need it any more

 

[Blindtraveler]

Hi all, sorry to but in, but rather than start a total new thread I figured that all the victims of this issue and experts on how to solve it were in here so I would most likely get a good answer.

Planning to travel Paddington>Swansea at end of June on an ALR at the shoulder of the evening peek on a Friday. What are the chances of me experiencing issues in London?