Too many bikes on trains - ATW

[PermitToTravel]

Frankly, on some stock, it is the only safe place to stand. Especially if every seat is taken, and you're not merely standing there because your journey is short and you want to avoid having to sit in cramped conditions.

Only if you're one of those people who selfishly refuses to stand in the aisles!

 

[Pigeon]

It's all very well saying trains should be bigger and have more seats and more cycle space and more luggage space, but we don't have that and no-one will be willing to pay for it anyway.

It isn't a question of "all very well" - it is the fundamental cause of the problem (which itself is only a minor aspect of the problem of overcrowding in general). Refusing to engage with it on the grounds that it's too hard simply means that the problem will continue to exist but a lot of effort will be wasted on "solutions" which don't actually solve anything.

This thread is a fine demonstration of that futility. We have people proposing draconian measures such as banning bikes altogether, people picking nits over whether one variety of bike is better than another, people arguing over whether one particular individual should or should not take his bike on particular routes at particular times, people who do not themselves take their bike on trains refusing to acknowledge the value of being able to do it, and nothing remotely constructive emerging from the mess.

Buried in the sea of words are comments from three or four people pointing out that the problem used not to exist at all, because 1950s DMUs had a proper brake-van area with plenty of space for bikes. The rot set in with the introduction of the 1980s DMUs which, as well as having less passenger space overall than the trains they replaced, had no brake-van area and whose token gesture at providing accommodation for bicycles (or indeed any other large and inconvenient items that people might find it necessary to bring with them) consisted at best of a seating area where you were expected to argue with the people sitting in the seats in the hope that they would move so you could put your bike there instead, all the way down to a tiny cubby hole that could take one bike and then only if it didn't have handlebars, or even nothing at all.

This style of design, despite being patently rubbish, then somehow became a "standard", and the same errors were perpetuated in all subsequent new stock.

If the problem of bikes on trains - and the greater problem of overcrowding of which it is a minor aspect - is to be solved, and not just niggled over, then it has to be a long-term effort, and dismissing such solutions out of hand without even discussing them is not a sensible approach.

What needs to be done to make progress possible is to first eliminate the idea that inadequate 1980s-type interior designs are an acceptable way of doing things. They aren't. They weren't at the time - see the post about the first day of 150 operation on a branch used to 1950s DMUs - and they are even less so now with ever more people travelling by train. (Perhaps a good first step would be to compel those responsible for designing passenger accommodation to suffer at the deficiencies of their own creations.) A standard of passenger and luggage space of "at least as good as a 1950s DMU" needs to be set, and followed, and the current standard of "if it's like a Splinter it's OK" weeded out root and branch.

1980s DMUs are now as old as 1950s DMUs were when the 1980s ones started to replace them. It would therefore appear that they themselves will be considered due for replacement before too long. We need to make sure that before this happens, it is firmly established that new trains should be provided with as much interior space and as many vehicles as possible, and equally firmly established that the current idea of providing as little/few as possible is not remotely acceptable.

 

[plymothian]

Well considering we've reached a point where an 8 carriage HST with TGS, high density seating, 2 large luggage racks per carriage and overhead racking is inadequate then designing smaller trains to fulfil space needs for everyone is impossible.

 

[Flamingo]

Well considering we've reached a point where an 8 carriage HST with TGS, high density seating, 2 large luggage racks per carriage and overhead racking is inadequate then designing smaller trains to fulfil space needs for everyone is impossible.

But for what percentage of the time it runs every day is it inadequate, and what percentage is it total overkill? I work one evening train (HST) that is heavily loaded for the first 45 minutes, for the next two and a half hours after that a 153 would fit everybody.

 

[radamfi]

I wonder where AGA got the idea of the 'bike & go' scheme that no one wishes to use or subscribe to? Maybe it's because some have been so keen to take advantage of a tax rebate, having been sold cycle to work packages, where again, cut price ownership, negates the need to hire...

Clearly Bike & Go is based on OV-Fiets but there are major differences which make it less attractive. It costs more than taking your bike on the train, whereas in the Netherlands it is cheaper. Also, you have to queue at the ticket office every time you take out and return a bike, whereas in the Netherlands there is a dedicated attendant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only if you're one of those people who selfishly refuses to stand in the aisles!

Yes, that is irritating, but it makes no sense to stand in the aisles when the 4 "standback" positions are not taken, as with the aisles being quite narrow you are causing much more of an obstruction. The issue is more that people won't move down the train meaning people can't get on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clearly Bike & Go is based on OV-Fiets but there are major differences which make it less attractive. It costs more than taking your bike on the train, whereas in the Netherlands it is cheaper. Also, you have to queue at the ticket office every time you take out and return a bike, whereas in the Netherlands there is a dedicated attendant.

Not sure overly why it needs to be done on a manned basis - could they not use an automated scheme similar to the Boris bikes?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well considering we've reached a point where an 8 carriage HST with TGS, high density seating, 2 large luggage racks per carriage and overhead racking is inadequate then designing smaller trains to fulfil space needs for everyone is impossible.

HSTs of course have van areas. For regional stock, multipurpose areas with plenty of grab rails probably make most sense. Off-peak they can take maybe 4 or more bikes, or instead of the bikes one or more wheelchairs, whereas peak they are available as standing space (or again for wheelchairs if any).

Their use does require consideration, and I would say they shouldn't contain tip-up seats as some people favour these and are reluctant to move, but as a whole they do seem to work.

 

[313103]

You see in the rush to rid the railway of Guards, provision of brake vans or indeed a brake compartment has been disigned out of all new build trains since and correct me if I am wrong the HST in 1975 and the class 312 emus again of the same time.

All trains now have very little areas for the provision of bicycles, prams, even parcels & large luggage, the railways then puts the onus on the guard (if there is one) or no one in th case of doo trains.

The set trains will again have little or room to store bicycles, the way railway bosses see it is every little space on the train must be to provide seats!

 

[radamfi]

Not sure overly why it needs to be done on a manned basis - could they not use an automated scheme similar to the Boris bikes?

Some of the stations have automated systems, but mostly they use the same people who check your parking ticket. So it is basically a case of picking up a bike and walking out with it.

The different types of hire locations are explained here (use Google Translate or similar):

http://www.ov-fiets.nl/ovfiets/hoe-werkt-ov-fiets/submenu/verschillende-huurlocaties

 

[Flamingo]

The set trains will again have little or room to store bicycles, the way railway bosses see it is every little space on the train must be to provide seats!

A lot of that is politically driven and from the DfT. There are votes in being able to say "I got x extra seats a day from A to B". Not so many votes in "I got X extra luggage and bike spaces"...

 

[30907]

I'm in favour of having bike space on trains, having used same a fair bit in the 70s and early 80s, but a little perspective is called for.

1. Until the mid 70s bikes travelled at half the normal fare.
When free cycle conveyance was introduced experimentally, after lobbying IIRC, I remember a group of us booking Oxford - Oakengates(?) and Bromsgrove - Oxford for a trip to the SVR. The fact that we had to have reservations didn't bother us, as trains were less frequent anyway.

2. IME the van space provided in Mk1 (and ex SR) stock was vastly underused - the 1950s boom of prams had almost disappeared and folding buggies were the norm.

Rightly or wrongly, parcels by passenger train had also gone, and luggage space was being removed gradually (eg refurbishment of VEPs and CEPs). The exception was IC, where trains mostly had to have a BG as there were no Mk3 B SOS.

Bikes on trains were rare (though I have no experience of bikes on trains in eg East Anglia) - I and friends would normally be the only users. And frankly loading them was a hassle, even when it was free.

 

[Starmill]

Only if you're one of those people who selfishly refuses to stand in the aisles!

I think I've made this point clear in other threads, and I'm sorry you've had difficulty understanding it in this one.

There's far too much blaming of passengers that goes on because they do not want to stand in the aisles of stock that is either very old and has almost no standing room (e.g. some 150s with 3+2) or is not designed with standing passengers in mind in any part of the train, e.g. Voyagers and 185s. If you stand in the aisle you're much more likely to fall over, or to miss your stop. Who's going to accept responsibility for either of those things? Nobody but the person who chooses to stand in an aisle. This is why people, myself included, are so reluctant to do so.

 

[Holly]

I'm in favour of having bike space on trains, having used same a fair bit in the 70s and early 80s, but a little perspective is called for.

1. Until the mid 70s bikes travelled at half the normal fare.
... .

Motorbikes (no fuel allowed, petrol tank had to be dry) were half fare too if memory serves. And if you travelled first class then your motorbike had to pay half first class too. Not that there actually were any first class brake compartments!
At one time it was not at all uncommon to have motor scooters on the Highland Sleeper.

Does anyone know when carriage of motorbikes on trains ended?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's far too much blaming of passengers that goes on because they do not want to stand in the aisles of stock that is either very old and has almost no standing room (e.g. some 150s with 3+2) or is not designed with standing passengers in mind in any part of the train, e.g. Voyagers and 185s.

Voyagers and 185s are provided with handles on the seat backs, and therefore are designed with standing in mind.

 

[Dr_Paul]

IME the van space provided in Mk1 (and ex SR) stock was vastly underused -- the 1950s boom of prams had almost disappeared and folding buggies were the norm.

That's my experience too. Services in and out of Waterloo often had two or three (depending on the length of the train; two or three four-car Mark I sets) luggage spaces which would be empty except for rush hours, when they were used as additional standing-space for passengers when things became crowded, and for the occasional bike at other times. These areas eventually were converted into compartments, providing more seating space for passengers. I suspect that this stock was built when BR still had a fair amount of parcel traffic; if I remember correctly, the van space on 4-CIG sets was noted as two tons, 4-VEP sets 2.5 tons.

 

[reb0118]

I have heard tales of "can't pay won't pay" fare dodgers who had put their bikes in the locked cycle store areas of certain trains watching the train pull out with their bikes still locked in there, but I am sure these are urban myths...

No, they are not apocryphal. There may be a cycle still in a LPO between London & Brighton if Canada Bob can be believed. I, myself, informed a fare dodger who was ensconced in the toilet that he was free to remain but his bike was safe on the platform, he chose to follow his bike.

 

[bramling]

That's my experience too. Services in and out of Waterloo often had two or three (depending on the length of the train; two or three four-car Mark I sets) luggage spaces which would be empty except for rush hours, when they were used as additional standing-space for passengers when things became crowded, and for the occasional bike at other times. These areas eventually were converted into compartments, providing more seating space for passengers. I suspect that this stock was built when BR still had a fair amount of parcel traffic; if I remember correctly, the van space on 4-CIG sets was noted as two tons, 4-VEP sets 2.5 tons.

The VEPs in particular had very large brake vans, the size of which was reduced in the 1990s to make room for some extra seating.

For what it's worth, I'm not convinced brake vans are the total solution to taking cycles on trains. I was always a bit edgy leaving the bike in the brake van and then sitting somewhere where I couldn't see it. And slam-door trains were some of the worst for taking a folding bike when the train was crowded. You definitely wouldn't want to leave a £1k folding bike in a brake van for 2 hours.

The problem with everything is that things have tended to get busier since the 1990s. Then, you knew that peak trains would be full, but generally outside the peaks you knew you would have plenty of space. Nowadays this isn't so much the case - often "peak shoulder" trains can be the worst, but on some outer-suburban routes from London you can have more free space at 1830 compared to other times of day - especially on Fridays.

Too many people, travelling too much.

 

[quarella]

Trains are crowded at certain times of the day leading to conflict with cyclists. Reservations for cycles has been mentioned upthread but perhaps compulsory boarding cards for all passengers on certain services should be considered.

 

[Pigeon]

For what it's worth, I'm not convinced brake vans are the total solution to taking cycles on trains. I was always a bit edgy leaving the bike in the brake van and then sitting somewhere where I couldn't see it. And slam-door trains were some of the worst for taking a folding bike when the train was crowded. You definitely wouldn't want to leave a £1k folding bike in a brake van for 2 hours.

I'd reckon that of all the places I might leave a bike, the guard's van is about the safest, because the guard is there. Maybe not all the time, but he's there at stations, which are the only places anyone can actually nick it. I'd have said hello to him when putting the bike on the train as a matter of course, and I'd trust that he would notice if a different person tried to take it off.

I've had bikes nicked when locked up in the street and even from the hallway of the house of flats I was living in - all sorts of places, but the common factor was always that nobody was there to see. I don't think the value of the bike is relevant. Partly because few people would consider that a bike might be worth thousands of pounds in the first place, and partly because all my bikes have been manky old grids with one wheel in the scrapyard and they still got nicked.

 

[tony6499]

There have always been cyclists who think that the rules and regs don't apply to them whether it is cycling on platforms or thinking that the peak time restrictions don't apply to them.

Until this sort of ignorance is sorted then there will always be conflict. I would charge a fee whether it is a %of the ticket held or a flat rate fee for cycles and then the amount of bikes carried especially on suburban trains would drop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains are crowded at certain times of the day leading to conflict with cyclists. Reservations for cycles has been mentioned upthread but perhaps compulsory boarding cards for all passengers on certain services should be considered.

Compulsory reservations (basically the same thing) can be applied if a TOC wants, but I don't think any presently do.

 

[gray1404]

Paulfoel sounds like such a grumpy complainer type of traveler. He was not effected adversly by this. He just wanted to have moan to the guard. I can't believe he actually bothered to complain to AW about something so minor. If the train were to crash or derail, trust me there would be more then just bikes, more like luggage and dead bodies to climb over. So don't go using the "safty" card as a blanket excuse! Seriously, we've all been on crowded services for one reason or another. I would not want to do anything to bring problems into someone's life and complaining to AW is basically him trying to get people with bikes not being allowed travel on a train and having to wait for another service - which should seriously mess up a person's travel plans. Get a life!

I am NOT going to enter into a discusson OR reply mode on this one! I've said what I think and that's that. But seriously, these type of complaints just come from customers who just like to give railway staff a hard time!

 

[quarella]

Compulsory reservations (basically the same thing) can be applied if a TOC wants, but I don't think any presently do.

They are not! I chose the words "Boarding cards" deliberately. Compulsory reservations limits the number to the seating capacity. Boarding cards/passes enables fuller use of the available capacity with standing passengers.
The enforcement would be the issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are not! I chose the words "Boarding cards" deliberately. Compulsory reservations limits the number to the seating capacity. Boarding cards/passes enables fuller use of the available capacity with standing passengers.

If you're going to do it, you might as well do compulsory reservations and issue a certain number of standing reservations. At least then you know where you are.

The enforcement would be the issue.

Would only work with barriers, really.

 

[AM9]

There have always been cyclists who think that the rules and regs don't apply to them whether it is cycling on platforms or thinking that the peak time restrictions don't apply to them.

Until this sort of ignorance is sorted then there will always be conflict. I would charge a fee whether it is a %of the ticket held or a flat rate fee for cycles and then the amount of bikes carried especially on suburban trains would drop.

So that should apply to push-chairs as well unless they are sealed closed making them luggage IAW the NRCoC. If that was enforced then the only wheeled items that would have free transit on the railway would be wheelchairs.

 

[radamfi]

If you had manned secure parking at origin and destination stations, you can safely leave a bike at your destination station. That could reduce the number of bikes carried by commuters.

There could be a conflict of interest in areas where the local buses are run by the same company as the TOC. They don't want people cycling as it means less bus travel and therefore less money. Such TOCs may be reluctant to build manned cycle parking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you had manned secure parking at origin and destination stations, you can safely leave a bike at your destination station. That could reduce the number of bikes carried by commuters.

Yes, that's the Dutch approach. Though you can do that now if one end of the journey is quite short - just buy a cheap bike that isn't very attractive to thieves.

 

[Flamingo]

What charge would there be to use the manned cycle parking? It wouldn't be free.

 

[TrainAndBike]

Ticket reservations had all sort of problems when they were used.

Problems I encountered.

1. Bike reservations were 'compulsory' on the local companies trains. Try to book. That train does not have seat reservations so the bike reservation cannot be associated with your seat ticket.

2. I have a reservation. I arrive at my train on time. The bike area is already occupied. I stand with my bike in a doorway.

3. I arrived at a station the train was unexpectedly busy, some event, so I had to wait for the next train.

4. I caught a train at Carmarthen a 3:15am on Sunday Morning. (Ferry meeting service from Fishguard to London, not in the timetable last time I looked). I had just done a 200km hilly bike ride so would not have been back for the last quite early Saturday train. I walked to the guards van but it was locked. The guard runs up and says sorry I thought it was a mistake I didn't expect a bike to turn up at this time of the morning.

5. I put my bike in the slot on a super sprinter. I am pleased they have opened them up on ATW. A busy train as most are in the evening. Despite having a reservation and putting it in the correct place I had a problem. At Swansea a formidable middle aged lady got on with a very large suitcase. She looks at the bike and says she wants to put her bag there. She storms off to find the guard. The guard comes to me and asks me could I please move my bike to pacify the lady nagging him.

 

[radamfi]

What charge would there be to use the manned cycle parking? It wouldn't be free.

In the Netherlands, manned cycle parking at stations is usually chargeable. There is a common fee structure at most stations. 24 hours is 1.30 euro. You can also get a month for 14.00 and a year for 105.00. Some stations are free or free for the day or first few days:

http://www.nsfiets.nl/nsfiets/blinde-paginas/ns-fietsparkeren/tarieven-2015.html

Manned cycle parking in town centres is usually free and run by the local council. Amsterdam council runs free manned parking at a number of metro/rail stations.

 

[jopsuk]

I got an EMT 158, just before Christmas, with my bike from Ely to Peterborough. Had a bike reservation for that train and for the EC service beyond. Open the door with the bike symbol... wall of bags. Thankfully the guard was a sensible chap and suggested I put it in the rear vestibule (train was non-stop between the two stations anyway)- he was more concerned that I was OK with this than I was!