Too many bikes on trains - ATW

[Tracky]

Somebody mentioned pushchairs earlier.

Ask a parent to take their child out and fold the pushchair for storage and if puts you some where between Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris on the child abuse scale. The tip up seats in 175 vestibules have only encouraged the idea of keeping them set up.

 

[paulfoel]

Paulfoel sounds like such a grumpy complainer type of traveler. He was not effected adversly by this. He just wanted to have moan to the guard. I can't believe he actually bothered to complain to AW about something so minor. If the train were to crash or derail, trust me there would be more then just bikes, more like luggage and dead bodies to climb over. So don't go using the "safty" card as a blanket excuse! Seriously, we've all been on crowded services for one reason or another. I would not want to do anything to bring problems into someone's life and complaining to AW is basically him trying to get people with bikes not being allowed travel on a train and having to wait for another service - which should seriously mess up a person's travel plans. Get a life!

I am NOT going to enter into a discusson OR reply mode on this one! I've said what I think and that's that. But seriously, these type of complaints just come from customers who just like to give railway staff a hard time!

I must admit I find this post unbelievable. Its not me who makes the rules, the bike limit is generally on the web site of most TOCs.

Im not an expert on train safety but Im assuming there is a reason why this rule is in place?

Im assuming you are an employee of a TOC. Your attitude indicates all that is wrong with the rail service in this country. If its too much hassle then whu should you have to do it seems to be your argument.

In answer to your points about me:-

1. Not adversely affected by this. Hmm. Let me see - having to climb over the bikes to get off the train. Yes I was affected. Is the guard who can't be bothered going to pay me the £1000s of lost income from my client when I cant get to site because I fell over and hurt myself. I guess not.

2.Messing up a persons travel plans. Hmm. It plainly states on the ATW website the policy regarding bikes. If passengers would rather ignore this and 'chance it' then theres not a lot they can do. Next time I fly on holidays and the flight I want to go is full I might ask them to let me sit on the floor - dont want to be inconvenienced, do I?

Bottom line. Im a paying customer. I have a right to complain about the comfort and especially the safety of the service I've paid for. Especially if rules that are CLEARLY ON THE TOC WEBSITE are broken.

If you are a guard on a train, I would suggest this sort of thing is your job. If you don't like it get another one which allows you to pick and choose what you do.

 

[LowLevel]

It is a job which allows you to pick and choose what you do - the train guard is equivalent to a ship's captain in that they are in sole charge of the train. There are rules that must never been broken, equally the regulations on bicycles and the carriage of other luggage are at the guard's discretion. Should the guard get it wrong and someone be injured that's their problem, but equally should someone be jumping up and down because there's more than two bikes regardless of any practical consideration (our TOC says 2 bikes may be carried per train - does this mean additional bikes may never be carried in multiple units which effectively double or triple this figure? They say 2 to avoid complications as that's the minimum safe amount, some trains are officially passed for more but this isn't published to avoid confusion in the case of set swaps) then I'd politely explain that I'm in charge and it's at my discretion, but thanks for raising your concern and I'll keep an eye on it.

I have an actual upper limit in my head for all the traction I work which I won't cross - 2 or 3 if they're road bikes on 153s, 5-7 on 156s and 4 if stacked correctly on 158s.
Equally if I've a train wedged full of people and luggage the limit may become zero if there's nowhere to put them and again the conditions of carriage allow me to refuse bikes notwithstanding any policy on their carriage.

 

[fairysdad]

In the Netherlands, manned cycle parking at stations is usually chargeable. There is a common fee structure at most stations. 24 hours is 1.30 euro. You can also get a month for 14.00 and a year for 105.00.

But this is the UK, you'd probably get charged £2 per hour, £15 per day, or £50 for the week.

(Per wheel )

 

[paulfoel]

It is a job which allows you to pick and choose what you do - the train guard is equivalent to a ship's captain in that they are in sole charge of the train. There are rules that must never been broken, equally the regulations on bicycles and the carriage of other luggage are at the guard's discretion. Should the guard get it wrong and someone be injured that's their problem, but equally should someone be jumping up and down because there's more than two bikes regardless of any practical consideration (our TOC says 2 bikes may be carried per train - does this mean additional bikes may never be carried in multiple units which effectively double or triple this figure? They say 2 to avoid complications as that's the minimum safe amount, some trains are officially passed for more but this isn't published to avoid confusion in the case of set swaps) then I'd politely explain that I'm in charge and it's at my discretion, but thanks for raising your concern and I'll keep an eye on it.

I have an actual upper limit in my head for all the traction I work which I won't cross - 2 or 3 if they're road bikes on 153s, 5-7 on 156s and 4 if stacked correctly on 158s.
Equally if I've a train wedged full of people and luggage the limit may become zero if there's nowhere to put them and again the conditions of carriage allow me to refuse bikes notwithstanding any policy on their carriage.

Perfectly fair and valid IMHO. I would have no problem if a guard advised me of this when I complained. However, in the instance I encountered it was not something he could have argued was safe.

But what I can't accept is:-

1) Guards allowing bikes on regardless of safety considerations because they can't be bothered to get into an argument.

2) Passengers kicking off if they are bike is refused. The rules after all are in black and white.

3) Being told Im not allowed to complain and cause hassle for the train guard. Like I said, Im a paying customer I will complain about what I want.

 

[LowLevel]

In which case all of your 3 points are also quite fair and reasonable and number 1 is a particular frustration of mine as well. It makes it far harder to do things properly when someone says 'I was allowed on the way out' and you have every reason to believe they are telling the truth as you know a few of your colleagues are lazy wasters and at some stations in particular the platform staff want consigning to a different role (Manchester Oxford Road are probably my least favourite for just being rubber statues holding dispatch batons rather than taking any part in load in trains safely. They get very irate when you refuse to go until issues like bikes wedged outside the driving cab doors are resolved).

 

[paulfoel]

In which case all of your 3 points are also quite fair and reasonable and number 1 is a particular frustration of mine as well. It makes it far harder to do things proper when someone says 'I was allowed on the way out' and you have every reason to believe they are telling the truth.

I guess thats true. But also in a way the guard should have full support from manager or whoever if they do refuse a bike etc. i.e. if it means a delay.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If I feel its safe I decide how many bikes I can Carry. If I dont feel its safe then I don't allow any more on. Passengers can argue all day long but on my train what I say goes and they can complain all they want.

 

[paulfoel]

If I feel its safe I decide how many bikes I can Carry. If I dont feel its safe then I don't allow any more on. Passengers can argue all day long but on my train what I say goes and they can complain all they want.

Which is the right approach where safety is the priority which is all I ask for.

I hope I never have to get on a train where the guard is one of the posters on here whos attitude seems to be Im not going to bother because people kick off and complain and I dont want the grief.

 

[Pugwash]

The problem appears to be a lack of capacity rather than too many bikes.

If 'customers' wish to bring bikes the service provider should look at how this can be accommodated.

Mk1 trains had a guards van which was perfect for oversized luggage, it was the industry that decided to do away with this rather than the passengers.

 

[Greenback]

As I see things, the problem is both a lack of capacity and the fact that cycling has become more popular over the last few decades.

 

[Pugwash]

Going slightly off topic - as it is for a different line, but having seen the plans for the new sleeper trains to Scotland, they really could do with much more luggage space for ' adventure sports ' equipment of all kinds. Be that Touring Bikes, Mountain Bikes, Climbing or diving Equipment.

The travel and leisure industry is changing, the railways should be ready to support that.

 

[Parallel]

But this is the UK, you'd probably get charged £2 per hour, £15 per day, or £50 for the week.

(Per wheel )

*Cue influx of unicycles*

 

[Bletchleyite]

*Cue influx of unicycles*

Unicycles are fine, just don't take your "ordinary bicycles" on Southern in the peak

http://www.gatwickexpress.com/en/contact-us/faqs/on-board/ if you don't believe me...

 

[jopsuk]

http://www.gatwickexpress.com/en/contact-us/faqs/on-board/ if you don't believe me...

Read that, and then tell me whether or not a cycle trailer is permitted...

Can I travel with a cycle trailer?
Cycle trailers not exceeding the maximum dimensions of 100x100x100cm and 50kg in weight can be carried in the driver or guards van.

Trailers not exceeding 90x70x30cm and 50kg can be carried free of charge.

A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for: each additional item in excess of a passenger's free allowance; and any item with dimensions exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm.

Excess allowance charges can be purchased at the time of booking your tickets and or cycle reservations

but then

What about tricycles, cycle trailers or double deck cycles?
Unfortunately, tricycles, cycle trailers or double deck cycles are prohibited from our cycle policy.

 

[BestWestern]

The problem appears to be a lack of capacity rather than too many bikes.

If 'customers' wish to bring bikes the service provider should look at how this can be accommodated.

Mk1 trains had a guards van which was perfect for oversized luggage, it was the industry that decided to do away with this rather than the passengers.

Doing away with the passengers would certainly cure overcrowding!

The issue here is delays, as it so often is. You can't police every doorway and cyclists will often cram on wherever they can. Once a cyclist and their steed are on board, they will often refuse to get back off, and here begins the drama. Sadly some TOCs will take the attitude that a delay of however many minutes ought to be avoided by not having the argument. And so the Guard has to make a reasonable judgement as to whether it's a good move to enter into dispute with the cyclist, or to make some provision to carry them. Me personally, if I have a bike somewhere other than the designated places, I'll often ask the rider simply to remain with it and ensure that it doesn't block anybody's way. That's on stock such as 150s where a bike in a vestibule won't be completely blocking all access in or out of the carriage - wedged down the aisle on a 158, for example, would be unacceptable.

In short, there are rules and then there is common sense.

 

[Pigeon]

You can't police every doorway and cyclists will often cram on wherever they can.

Guard's vans, again, or the lack of, and in more ways than just that they aren't there.

Boarding a train with a bike is difficult. You have to spot where you're supposed to get on as soon as possible after seeing the train approaching, so that you can get to the right spot on the platform in those last few seconds before all the people start to move forward and there is no longer room to push the bike along the platform. Otherwise you're pretty well stuck until most people have got on and most people getting off have dispersed, which means you're holding things up and risking having the train go without you.

With guard's vans this was fairly easy. The distinctive layout and shape of the doors and windows was easy to spot even from a considerable distance and at an awkward angle, so you could work out where you needed to be well before the train reached the platform, and there was the further advantage that that was the one spot that would not attract a ruck of people trying to get on, so there was no conflict for the space.

These days it's a pain. There is no chance at all of being able to work out where the bicycle accommodation is from a distance. You have to hang around at the back of the platform, since that is the only place where there might still be room to move once people start preparing to board, and then try and peer through the gaps between all the bodies and into the windows of the train in the hope of seeing where the interior layout is different - an endeavour at which the chances of success are pretty low unless you're the tallest person on the platform. Bicycle symbols on the side of the train are useless even if they're there, because you can't see through the people. Even if you do manage to spot where the cycle space is, it may well still be impossible to get to it - for instance if you are between the cycle space and the station exit, so the space behind the crowds trying to get on the train is filled with another crowd of people all walking the opposite way to you.

This makes it very easy to end up in the situation where you have a choice of trying to cram on at the nearest door regardless, or being left behind because you can't get to the "cycle door" in time.

Furthermore the current situation engenders the perception that it doesn't matter anyway, the so-called cycle space being so totally unfit for purpose that there's no point worrying about trying to use it. If it has tip-up seats they will probably have people sat in them so you can't use it anyway. Or the utterly stupid cubby-hole I was once instructed to put my bike in which was too narrow for the handlebars so the front half of the bike was sticking out right in front of a doorway - if it hadn't been for the guard telling me I wouldn't even have thought that that was cycle space, let alone tried to use it as such.

So "cram on wherever you can" is by and large a valid strategy, and the reason for this is not within passengers' control.