Won penalty appeal but £20 admin fee - help!

[IanD]

Her first opportunity was when she bought the single and no amount of exclamation marks will change my opinion.

A penalty fare is issued in place of the fare that should have been paid rather than in addition to it. Therefore, once a penalty fare has been issued there is no obligation to pay again for the journey you've just been PF'd for. Simple logic, no exclamation marks required.

 

[Agent_c]

There surely cannot be an obligation to buy a ticket for your next journey when you made your last one. That is utterly ridiculous.

In any case, it appears to be completely off the point. The appeal has been won, and the penalty fare rejected, so why is she being charged an "administration fee" that is clearly not due?

This sounds like a wonderful scam. Set admin fees at the same level as a penalty fare +1. Tails they win, heads you lose.

 

[DaleCooper]

There surely cannot be an obligation to buy a ticket for your next journey when you made your last one. That is utterly ridiculous.

In any case, it appears to be completely off the point. The appeal has been won, and the penalty fare rejected, so why is she being charged an "administration fee" that is clearly not due?

This sounds like a wonderful scam. Set admin fees at the same level as a penalty fare +1. Tails they win, heads you lose.

I suggest somebody sends the link:

https://www.ircas.co.uk/help-admin.shtml

to Jason Saunders Appeals Assessor

 

[DarloRich]

Missed the outrage bus - will the cynicism bus pick me up?

The rules say If you pay or appeal on time there are no administration charges. as long as the appeal made by the OP was within the defined limit there should be no administration charges.

 

[bnm]

So who the hell's driving then? hock:hock:hock:

Like the Cynicism Bus it runs on hot air.

 

[CyrusWuff]

We're missing four pieces of information at this point:

• The date the notice was issued
• The date the appeal was submitted
• Whether any payment was made (which would normally be at least the single fare for the journey) and, if so, when

Without those dates, it's impossible to say whether they're correct (in line with their own procedures) in applying the admin fee or not.

And whilst I agree that it's unfair to have the appeal upheld but still have to pay the admin fee, they have time limits for a reason...

 

[bnm]

If the appeal was outside the time limit then surely that should be communicated. There's no mention in the response from the Appeals Assessor of time limits being missed and this being the reason for an administration fee. Also, if the time limit was missed, why was the appeal allowed?

 

[Tetchytyke]

We're missing four pieces of information at this point:

• The date the notice was issued
• The date the appeal was submitted
• Whether any payment was made (which would normally be at least the single fare for the journey) and, if so, when

True, although as a general rule IPFAS will reject appeals which are submitted outside of the time limit. The fact that the appeal was successful implies that it was submitted within the time limit.

As I said she won her appeal regarding the ticket machine but that did not absolve her from having a ticket for the outward journey.

Obviously if there are two points of view it could be clearer.

*sigh*

The fare is payable IMHO, either £0.20 or £3.20 depending on your view.

The "admin fee" of £20 is only payable where a person does not pay or appeal within the time limit.

Unless you're able to provide T&Cs which show an admin fee is payable for another reason? Bear in mind that this isn't an Unpaid Fares Notice and is the first time the fare of £3.20 has been demanded.

I would get on the Outrage Bus, but it is run by GoVia so it is currently sitting outside Watford Junction for no apparent reason

 

[LateThanNever]

All of the "back office" work when it comes to PFs (and UFNs) is handled by RPSS or IAS, depending on the TOC involved. This includes processing of payments (and refunds where an appeal is upheld) and Debt Collection (where the notice isn't paid by the relevant date).

This is also why payment is strongly discouraged at Ticket Offices, as clerks have been known to take the payment but then fail to inform RPSS/IAS (and get a Transfer Voucher raised), so the debt collection procedure goes ahead.

Once issued, the TOC has no further input into the process (from the passenger's point of view) unless the notice is cancelled and they go down the prosecution route.

So whilst it may be morally wrong, given the appeal was upheld, you may still be liable for the fee if the PF wasn't paid in time, and may well find they take action in the Small Claims Court to recover it...

Debt collectors might well threaten court for their £20 fee but if they really do take you to small claims court you can issue a counterclaim for the same amount (for free) to cover the administration involved as a result of their customer's broken ticket machine. So I cannot see they'd have any prospect whatsoever of recovering their administration charge.

 

[Merseysider]

If the appeal was sent (and received) in a timely fashion, there is no further requirement to pay anything other than the fare due, as the appeal was successful.

If the appeal was sent (or received) outside of the deadline for appealing, yet was still successful, it's still pretty crummy to add an admin fee on top.

OP, if you could please provide dates, or a timeline, or details of when everything happened, that would be immensely helpful to all concerned.

If you are telling us everything how it happened, it would appear no offence has been committed by travelling without a ticket when there was no facility to purchase one, and any effort to claim anything more than the £0.20/£3.20 due (open to debate) such as this additional £20 they are seeking, would fail in court. IANAL

 

[WillPS]

I'm looking for the confused bus.

What procedure allows IRCAS/RPSS are instructed to collect Penalty Fares, UPFNs and Appeals - I've not heard of them asking for payment of any sort in the event that an appeal is upheld? Is this at all usual?

 

[Clip]

I'm looking for the confused bus.

Can I join you as I have no idea why they would only give 7 days for a PF.

 

[Stejay]

I read the link, my point is that the appeal was over the matter of whether she was able to buy a ticket at the originating station, she wasn't so the appeal was successful, however she should have bought one at the first opportunity, which she didn't.

Just to clarify, on previous occasions when the machine has been broken, my daughter has got off at Walsall, gone to the ticket office and bought a return ticket immediately. This time she wasn't even allowed from the platform to buy a ticket before being stopped and hit with the fine. She would have otherwise bought one at the earliest opportunity.

Having been hit with the fine, she left the station and went to university as usual. When she got back to Walsall train station for the journey home, she simply bought a single ticket assuming that the £20 penalty fee covered the first journey from Cannock.

 

[Stejay]

We're missing four pieces of information at this point:

• The date the notice was issued
• The date the appeal was submitted
• Whether any payment was made (which would normally be at least the single fare for the journey) and, if so, when

Without those dates, it's impossible to say whether they're correct (in line with their own procedures) in applying the admin fee or not.

And whilst I agree that it's unfair to have the appeal upheld but still have to pay the admin fee, they have time limits for a reason...

Ok, back home now and have spoken to more daughter properly and also looked over the Penalty Fare Notice / Receipt. It wasn't the transport police that stopped her, it was London Midland staff. The police were there because the was a large number of passengers being fined and some were getting quite annoyed.

The date was 27th March. When given the fine, my daughter, not agreeing with what had happened stated she only had cash and they were only accepted card payments for the penalty payments, so she was given 21 days to pay, not seven as I incorrectly stated before, sorry.

She drafted her appeal letter and sent it off via recorded delivery on the 9th April, and the email saying she had been successful arrived yesterday.

I am currently on the phone to London Midland customer services who are telling me it is nothing to do with them now and to take it up with IPFAS.

GAH!

 

[yorkie]

I am currently on the phone to London Midland customer services who are telling me it is nothing to do with them now and to take it up with IPFAS.

LM don't want to deal with angry customers if they can help it, so they pay the faceless and incompetent IPFAS (note: 'I' stands for 'Independent', yet they are a trading name for one of the Train Companies owned by Govia, who also own London Midland. Yes, our Government allows this!) to refuse most appeals and drive a hard bargain. However if IPFAS are unsuccessful in resolving the matter, they will..... pass it back to London Midland!

So, if you are 100% certain you want to fight this, and are prepared to go to court if necessary, you wait until IPFAS have handed it back to LM, and then LM have to make a decision on whether or not to prosecute to recover their fines/fees/costs. I am not sure what the outcome would be, but the fact you had a successful appeal would, I hope, help your case.

 

[furlong]

I am currently on the phone to London Midland customer services who are telling me it is nothing to do with them now and to take it up with IPFAS.

It is everything to do with LM! It is LM that risks having the right to charge Penalty Fares suspended if you report its failing to the Department for Transport and it agrees the company is failing to abide by the rules.

It could not be clearer:

4.15 We do not recommend that large numbers of unstaffed stations are included in a penalty fares scheme. However, unstaffed stations can be penalty fares stations as long as they have at least one self-service ticket machine or one ‘permit to travel’ machine. Suitable processes must be in place to make sure that the machines are checked regularly and any faults put right quickly. A system must be in place which allows authorised collectors to confirm that these machines are working properly, and this must be effective. The instructions given to authorised collectors must tell them that if they are not sure whether the machines are working properly, they must give passengers the benefit of the doubt.

13.1 The SRA (*) may issue a prohibition notice preventing an operator from charging penalty fares if it has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the operator is not following any part of the
Regulations, these rules or their own approved penalty fares scheme, or is operating their scheme in a way which the SRA reasonably considers does not provide sufficient protection for passengers.

(*) Responsibility transferred to the DfT I believe.

"Reasonable grounds to suspect" is a low threshold - the onus seems to be very much on the company to produce evidence to counter any such suspicions that are drawn to the attention of the DfT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To follow this route, you might write to the DfT to ask it to serve a prohibition notice under that rule as you believe the contents of your letter should provide sufficient grounds for it to suspect LM is not following some parts of the rules. You would then set out each of its failings - and I think there might be more than one here - providing your evidence for each apparent breach set alongside what the relevant rules actually require of the company (which you should quote - download them from the appeals company's website).

 

[island]

It's worth remembering that the admin fee has no basis in law. They can be applied in the more usual case of a PF being correctly issued and unpaid, backed with the threat of cancelling the PF and prosecuting instead. So unless the passenger in this scenario actually agreed to pay the admin fee separately from any contract implied by travelling, I cannot see it as being recoverable.

The above is not a legally trained opinion but I believe it to be correct.

I would suggest sending a cheque for £3.20 accompanied by a letter stating it is in full and final settlement of the matter and to return it unbanked if they are not prepared to so accept it. You may also include a polite sentence declining to pay an administration fee born out of the TOC's incorrect actions.

 

[DelayRepay]

Personally I would play them at their own game and send them an invoice for my costs in dealing with the matter - costs which your daughter only incurred as a result of their broken ticket machine. My invoice would be completely unenforceable but I like a fight

However - have you checked it isn't just an admin error/typo on the letter? Unfortunately, these things happen.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Her first opportunity was when she bought the single and no amount of exclamation marks will change my opinion.

No it was not. She was unfairly issued a penalty fare for that journey. By buying a ticket after she was issued that PF, if the appeal was rejected for any reason, she would then have paid her fare and the PF.

Not only that, but would the TOC have recognised that she bought a ticket. The answer is no.

The PF was successfully appealed, therefore unlike others I think the amount owed is £3.20. No admin fee, this should be treated like a UFN.

 

[34D]

Surely the point of a successful 'appeal' is to put one in the position of paying the same that one ought to have paid if equipment was working - so I say cheque for 20p.

Great thread - please stand firm.

 

[Stejay]

Thanks for all the positive comments. I'm going to send a cheque off for £3.20 tomorrow along with a letter stating that the matter has now ended as for as we are concerned. I'll post back if I hear anything back from them afterwards.

 

[LateThanNever]

Surely the point of a successful 'appeal' is to put one in the position of paying the same that one ought to have paid if equipment was working - so I say cheque for 20p.

Great thread - please stand firm.

Quite - and if they bank it go to the local press!

 

[Stejay]

Just a quick update, the £3.20 cheque was cashed on the 1st of May, but I haven't heard anything from them since. Hopefully that is the end of the matter then, thanks everyone.