Won penalty appeal but £20 admin fee - help!

[Stejay]

My daughter recently caught the train to university without buying a ticket from the machine at the unmanned station where we live as the machine was broken and there was no conductor on the train either as there usually is. As she was making a return journey, she fully intended to buy her ticket from the ticket office when she got off. However, there were transport police at the station checking everyone's tickets, and instead of simply letting her pay there and then, they choose to take her details and said she'd have seven days to pay a £20 penalty. Rather than pay the fee, she decided to appeal. When she arrived back home she took a photo of the still broken machine which she sent off and subsequently won her appeal. The email saying she'd won said she now has to pay the full fare for the journey, which is fair enough, but they are also demanding a £20 administration fee on top. Through not fault of her own, and by actually winning the appeal, this is actually going to cost her more than if she had just "yeah, I'm a scummy fare dodger" and paid the £20 in the first place.

My instinct is to pay the fare and ignore the admin fee, but I don't know the full legalities of this and if it is a case of tough **** and pay up or not. Can anyone advise me please?

 

[bnm]

Which Train Company?

That's sounds outrageous. If the appeal has been accepted then only the fare should be due.

Could we see a scan of this letter, redacted of personal information?

I'd be tempted to say to them you owe me an administration fee for going out of my way to prove my innocence.

 

[Coolzac]

Is that even legal? The train company has first incorrectly decided to try and charge you a penalty and now despite innocence being proven they are essentially doing the same thing?

If I was you, I would refuse to pay the administration fee and also threaten to escalate the case (by writing to someone higher up/a newspaper/passenger focus) if they do not consider the case closed after you pay the fare due.

Along with the previous poster I would be tempted to charge them an admin fee. In the end though, I don't think it would help things unfortunately!

Good luck!

 

[furlong]

You talk about needing a return ticket, so what ticket did your daughter use to return?
You also say "full fare".

Unless there's some other relevant factor you haven't mentioned, the total amount paid for travel that day should be same as it would have been had the ticket machine been working at the origin and a return ticket purchased (with railcard if applicable).

 

[Fare-Cop]

You talk about needing a return ticket, so what ticket did your daughter use to return?
You also say "full fare".

Unless there's some other relevant factor you haven't mentioned, the total amount paid for travel that day should be same as it would have been had the ticket machine been working at the origin and a return ticket purchased (with railcard if applicable).

Absolutely correct and additionally, the OP states that the daughter was given only 'seven days to pay', which means this could not have been a Penalty Fare Notice as the 21 days to pay or appeal is a standard notice printed on the form that she would have been given if it were a PFN

Something doesn't seem right here.

 

[gray1404]

No, this doesn't seem right at all. Please scan in a copy of all the correspondence including the notice she was given on the day (omitting personal details). For the British Transport Police (please confirm it was them in attendance) to be taking peoples details when no offense has been committed is something else I take issue with. I have always resented showing my ticket to a police officer because they simply do not understand nor are trained in ticket regulations.

Please also provide the full details (date and time of day) of the journey taken and any railcards held.

 

[Flamingo]

There is not enough information in the original post to figure out if the engine needs to be started on the Outrage Bus yet (although I see that hasn't stopped some from boarding it already...)

 

[bnm]

Engine's running on the cynicism bus. :roll:

 

[Stejay]

Apologies if my initial post did not include enough specifics, it was written quite hastily in anger at the time. The train company is London Midland and my daughter was only taking a short journey from Cannock into Walsall and to answer furlong's question, the full fare for the journey is only £3.20, so the amount they are asking for is £23.20. My daughter, having been hit with the penalty arriving, then only bought a single ticket back, ordinarily when this has happened before, she buys a full return ticket when she arrives at Walsall.

She appealed via email and received an email response from appeals@penaltyfares.co.uk to say her appeal was successful stating:

Thank you for your correspondence, received by this office on 13-Apr-2015
The Penalty Fares Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC). Both state that where the facility exists at the origin station passengers must buy the correct ticket for their entire journey before joining the train. Penalty Fare warning notices are displayed at all Penalty Fare stations advising rail users of the necessity to produce a valid ticket for inspection on request and of the consequences for failing to do so.

Appeal decisions are made in accordance with a Government approved Code of Practice (COP). A copy of the Penalty Fare Rules, NRCOC and COP statement are available online at www.penaltyfares.co.uk.

It is the responsibility of the train company to supply the passenger with the facility to purchase their required ticket, or other authority to travel, before commencing their journey. When travelling from stations at which there are no ticket purchasing facilities provided, or the facilities provided are not functioning normally, passengers may join the train but must buy the correct ticket for their journey at the very first opportunity. This would be from the conductor on the train, or at the interchange, or at the destination station.

I note from your correspondence that ticket purchasing problems were encountered on the date of travel.

With that in mind, I am pleased to inform you that your appeal has been successful. There is, however, a fare due of £3.20 for the journey in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Attached is a statement provided by RPSS. An amount of £23.20 is currently outstanding and should be paid immediately to avoid further action or charges. Payment may be made with the appropriate credit/debit card online at www.penaltyfares.co.uk. When paying online, please ensure you enter the correct notice prefix and notice number printed on the notice itself. You can also pay by phone Mon-Fri from 06:00 to 22:00 on 0871 559 2997. Calls are charged at 10ppm from a BT land line. Calls from mobiles may vary depending on your tariff. Alternatively, you can send a cheque or postal order to RPSS, PO Box 89, Portsmouth, Hants, PO1 1EG, attached to a copy of this letter.

Yours sincerely
Jason Saunders Appeals Assessor

RPSS Statement Of Account for reference XXXXXXXXXXX
Fare Due: Administration Fee: Notice Amount Paid: Admin Amount Paid: Already Refunded:
£3.20 £20.00 £0.00 £0.00 £0.00
Amount Outstanding:
£23.20

It is 4.40 in the morning and my daughter is strangely enough asleep, lucky thing. I'll get more information from her this evening and provide more details if needed.

Thanks all so far.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If this was my daughter, I would pay the fare due but would be very tempted to "allow" the TOC to take her/me to court. Frankly, if the TOC cannot provide an opportunity/means to pay at the OP's origin station and there is no conductor on the train/or the girl didn't have time to seek him out due to the short journey, then I can't see the TOC having a leg to stand on... The girl did the right thing and took a photo of the broken ticket machine.

I suspect this is just scare-mongering (to the OP's innocent daughter) and the admin fee should be quashed.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It should be noted that the Appeals process is independent of the Debt Collection process, so even if you intend to appeal you still need to pay the PF within 21 days to prevent charges being accrued!

Madness I know, but that's the way it works...

 

[185]

Surely in instances where a PF is overturned, RPSS (the contractor) should hand the matter back to the TOC for their recovery. I was under the impression RPSS were being used solely to deal with those who committed fraudulent travel or irregular travel covered by penalty fares. If it was me, I'd probably be on the phone to LM customer services.

 

[IanD]

The penalty fare has been overturned. The return fare should have been £3.40. Your daughter has paid £3.20. So I'd send them a cheque for the 20p difference and tell them that is in full and final settlement of the amount owed, include a copy of the email and send a copy letter to LM customer services. As this would involve 2 stamps, I'd be tempted to include a bill for those as well. Please note I am not a lawyer

 

[CyrusWuff]

Surely in instances where a PF is overturned, RPSS (the contractor) should hand the matter back to the TOC for their recovery. I was under the impression RPSS were being used solely to deal with those who committed fraudulent travel or irregular travel covered by penalty fares. If it was me, I'd probably be on the phone to LM customer services.

All of the "back office" work when it comes to PFs (and UFNs) is handled by RPSS or IAS, depending on the TOC involved. This includes processing of payments (and refunds where an appeal is upheld) and Debt Collection (where the notice isn't paid by the relevant date).

This is also why payment is strongly discouraged at Ticket Offices, as clerks have been known to take the payment but then fail to inform RPSS/IAS (and get a Transfer Voucher raised), so the debt collection procedure goes ahead.

Once issued, the TOC has no further input into the process (from the passenger's point of view) unless the notice is cancelled and they go down the prosecution route.

So whilst it may be morally wrong, given the appeal was upheld, you may still be liable for the fee if the PF wasn't paid in time, and may well find they take action in the Small Claims Court to recover it...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect this is just scare-mongering (to the OP's innocent daughter) and the admin fee should be quashed.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.

And GoVia (owners of both London Midland and RPSS) are pretty much the most incompetent train operator I've ever had the misfortune to use. How they keep winning franchises is a mystery.

I think this needs to be resolved through London Midland customer relations, and if not then Transport Focus. My view is that, as there were no facilities to pay at the time of boarding, that the fare due is £3.40 return, of which £3.20 has already been paid. It depends how much you want to argue over £3, and whether you have kept the single.

RPSS will just stick to the line that you owe them twenty quid because you didn't pay a Penalty Fare that wasn't actually due to them. It sums up that set of chancers perfectly. Trying to deal directly with them is pretty much a waste of time.

 

[Coolzac]

I agree with the previous poster that the amount owed is 20p. One key aspect- have you kept the single that she paid £3.20 for? If so, then make sure you simply send them a cheque for 20p and include the £3.20 single (take a photo of it first) explaining all the circumstances and that you consider the matter closed.

If you don't have this ticket, I would simply just pay the £3.20 and again explain the circumstances and tell them that you expect the matter to be closed.

I would send correspondence to the RPSS first, but if they ignore you/still try and fleece you, get London Midland Customer relations involved as the previous poster has said.

Whether it is due to incompetence or not the TOC is extremely unlikely to escalate the matter, especially if you can clearly and concisely explain why you don't owe them anything more than 20p. Whilst it is hard when you are the one caught up in these things, try not to worry!

 

[bnm]

All of the "back office" work when it comes to PFs (and UFNs) is handled by RPSS or IAS, depending on the TOC involved. This includes processing of payments (and refunds where an appeal is upheld) and Debt Collection (where the notice isn't paid by the relevant date).

This is also why payment is strongly discouraged at Ticket Offices, as clerks have been known to take the payment but then fail to inform RPSS/IAS (and get a Transfer Voucher raised), so the debt collection procedure goes ahead.

Once issued, the TOC has no further input into the process (from the passenger's point of view) unless the notice is cancelled and they go down the prosecution route.

So whilst it may be morally wrong, given the appeal was upheld, you may still be liable for the fee if the PF wasn't paid in time, and may well find they take action in the Small Claims Court to recover it...

The Penalty Fare should not have been issued in the first place. The OPs daughter was proactive in gathering evidence of her innocence yet the appeals body still want to collect a punitive charge. That's perverse.

Besides which, administration charges should only be applied 14 days after an appeal is rejected and payment of the Penalty Fare remains outstanding.

 

[DaleCooper]

The problem here seems to be that she didn't buy a return ticket and therefore on the outward journey technically committed an offence. If only she had bought a return this may have gone away. Easy to say in hindsight I know.

 

[Coolzac]

The problem here seems to be that she didn't buy a return ticket and therefore on the outward journey technically committed an offence. If only she had bought a return this may have gone away. Easy to say in hindsight I know.

She didn't buy a return as she was sent a penalty fare! That is completely irrelevant to this case.

 

[DaleCooper]

She didn't buy a return as she was sent a penalty fare! That is completely irrelevant to this case.

I don't think it is irrelevant as she was given the PF before providing evidence of the broken machine and also evidence of not paying for one journey. It seems harsh but I would pay the £23.20 to avoid further trouble. What we need is a legal opinion before advising the OP to not pay.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It seems harsh but I would pay the £23.20 to avoid further trouble. What we need is a legal opinion before advising the OP to not pay.

There's an argument that the OP owes £3.20 for the outstanding single fare. I don't think she does, but there is an argument to be made for both sides. For the sake of three quid it might be worth paying it.

There is no argument at all (unless the OP did not appeal within the 21 days) that the OP owes the remaining £20: https://www.ircas.co.uk/help-admin.shtml

 

[bnm]

I don't think it is irrelevant as she was given the PF before providing evidence of the broken machine and also evidence of not paying for one journey. It seems harsh but I would pay the £23.20 to avoid further trouble. What we need is a legal opinion before advising the OP to not pay.

It's harsh because it is wrong. An appeal was allowed therefore no administration fee should be demanded.

I agree with others that only 20p is owed, but I can understand paying £3.20 in full and final settlement.

Post sent from the back of the outrage bus.

 

[DaleCooper]

There's an argument that the OP owes £3.20 for the outstanding single fare. I don't think she does, but there is an argument to be made for both sides. For the sake of three quid it might be worth paying it.

There is no argument at all (unless the OP did not appeal within the 21 days) that the OP owes the remaining £20: https://www.ircas.co.uk/help-admin.shtml

I would absolutely agree if she had bought a return ticket howewer should there not be an administration charge for collecting the outstanding £3.20 which could have been avoided for the sake of 20p.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would absolutely agree if she had bought a return ticket howewer should there not be an administration charge for collecting the outstanding £3.20

No, read the link.

So long as you appeal within 21 days, there is no administration charge payable.

 

[DaleCooper]

No, read the link.

So long as you appeal within 21 days, there is no administration charge payable.

I read the link, my point is that the appeal was over the matter of whether she was able to buy a ticket at the originating station, she wasn't so the appeal was successful, however she should have bought one at the first opportunity, which she didn't.

 

[Flamingo]

Post sent from the back of the outrage bus.

So who the hell's driving then? hock:hock:hock:

 

[DaleCooper]

So who the hell's driving then? hock:hock:hock:

Dunno, but I've just passed it going in the opposite direction.

 

[Coolzac]

I read the link, my point is that the appeal was over the matter of whether she was able to buy a ticket at the originating station, she wasn't so the appeal was successful, however she should have bought one at the first opportunity, which she didn't.

Quote from original sequence of events: 'However, there were transport police at the station checking everyone's tickets, and instead of simply letting her pay there and then, they choose to take her details and said she'd have seven days to pay a £20 penalty'

She has successfully appealed the penalty fare and there is no penalty fare left to pay! She tried to buy a ticket at the first opportunity, but they didn't let her!!!!!

 

[Tetchytyke]

however she should have bought one at the first opportunity, which she didn't.

Indeed, and that's why she owes them a certain amount: either £0.20 or £3.20, depending on your view.

The administration charge is only payable where you fail to pay or appeal within 21 days of the Penalty Fare being issued.

It couldn't be any clearer.

 

[DaleCooper]

Quote from original sequence of events: 'However, there were transport police at the station checking everyone's tickets, and instead of simply letting her pay there and then, they choose to take her details and said she'd have seven days to pay a £20 penalty'

She has successfully appealed the penalty fare and there is no penalty fare left to pay! She tried to buy a ticket at the first opportunity, but they didn't let her!!!!!

Her first opportunity was when she bought the single and no amount of exclamation marks will change my opinion.

Indeed, and that's why she owes them a certain amount: either £0.20 or £3.20, depending on your view.

The administration charge is only payable where you fail to pay or appeal within 21 days of the Penalty Fare being issued.

It couldn't be any clearer.

As I said she won her appeal regarding the ticket machine but that did not absolve her from having a ticket for the outward journey.

Obviously if there are two points of view it could be clearer.