Penalty Fare money

[badassunicorn]

I am failing to understand why people seem so outraged at the idea that "PF are just a money making scheme by the TOC!). Urrrrr, yes, of course they are. But if people had the correct ticket then it wouldn't be a problem. Its th same with parking tickets etc. Of course its a money making scheme, why so outraged!?

 

[Hadders]

If implemented correctly then PF's aren't a problem.

However I suggest you read some of the threads on here about how long standing members of this forum have been treated. For example jonmorris0844 and RJ.

Many TOC's don't train their staff correctly resulting in staff sometimes lacking even a most basic understanding of the rules. 'But that's not a problem because you can simple appeal and your PF will be overturned', I hear you say.

Car parking restrictions are clearly signed. Try finding out when you can use an off-peak ticket - it's a bit harder (okay, I know you shouldn't get a PF for using an off-peak ticket at an invalid time, but you get the drift (and a number have been issued 'in error' if this forum is to be believed))

Try not to laugh, but the independent penalty fares appeal service is run by Southeastern (yes - the train company, hardly independent). At least there is a truly independent regulator to deal with complaints against parking penalty charges.

 

[Agent_c]

I am failing to understand why people seem so outraged at the idea that "PF are just a money making scheme by the TOC!). Urrrrr, yes, of course they are. But if people had the correct ticket then it wouldn't be a problem. Its th same with parking tickets etc. Of course its a money making scheme, why so outraged!?

Well, lets take off peak fares.

Everyone has a rough idea about what "off peak" means, it means not on peak.

To me, Peak would be 7-9 and 5-7 to avoid all of those commuters. To the train company its so damn complicated you can't even rely on gate staff to know if a particular journey is "peak" or "Off Peak", or how far down the line you have to go for a peak train to magically become off peak.

In Scotrail Land, Peak is always the morning, but only the afternoon if you start in Edinburgh or Glasgow. If you get on a train in "rural" scotland, but change at Haymarket in the afternoon, thats still somehow off peak, even though you're on the same train for the second part of your journey as someone who can't buy an off peak ticket for the same journey. True, Scotrail don't do pentalty fares, but to expect the average ticket holder to know the Byzantinian rules that apply to parts down south is near impossible.

 

[bnm]

At least there is a truly independent regulator to deal with complaints against parking penalty charges.

For local authority issued Parking Penalty Charges maybe. But not for Parking Charge Notices issued by private car park operators. POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) was set up and is funded by the BPA (British Parking Association), a members club of private car park operators. The POPLA service is contracted out to London Councils but that doesn't make it truly independent. The BPA can and do call many shots and pull many strings. The BPA specifically say they are not a regulator.

The breakaway private parking company trade association, the IPC (Independent Parking Commitee) with its appeals system, the IAS (Independent Appeals Service), is even less 'independent'. It is run from the same offices as a firm of solicitors who specialise in threatograms to those deemed to have broken 'rules' in private car parks. The IPC and this firm of shysters... sorry, solicitors, share directors. Your appeal is likely to be heard by a solicitor who may well later be the advocate for the prosecution should a parking company member of the IPC take you to court for non payment of a Parking Charge Notice.

 

[Hadders]

Ah, I was thinking about the local council appeals when I wrote that. I didn't realise the regulator for private parking appeals wasn't quite so independent.

 

[arabianights]

I am failing to understand why people seem so outraged at the idea that "PF are just a money making scheme by the TOC!). Urrrrr, yes, of course they are. But if people had the correct ticket then it wouldn't be a problem. Its th same with parking tickets etc. Of course its a money making scheme, why so outraged!?

Because if it is a money making scheme (which I do not at all accept when it comes to penalty fares, by the way, but taking you as being correct for argument's sake) then it offers the wrong incentive to train companies who will be motivated to "trick" passengers into ending up in circumstances where they needed penalty fares.

This is why train companies should not get full compensation for train tickets at court, by the way. They should get the percentage they would get of the train ticket price if it had been legitimately bought and the difference should be reflected by increasing the fine or perhaps dispersing the other funds to the other train operating companies. I am aware that this is not legally possible, I am talking about justice not the law.

 

[Navajo8686]

The vast majority of the PF that I ever issue are for the £20. Out of that has to come the processing for the handling bureau/agency fee (together with our costs for handling cash, processing the credit/debit card payment assuming it doesn't bounce. That soaks up a big chunk - then I'd like a bit left over to go towards my pay. Badassunicorn is correct - it is not revenue generating in profit terms.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Badassunicorn is correct - it is not revenue generating in profit terms.

Most of the overheads that a Penalty Fare incur- banking charges, etc- are also incurred where a passenger buys a ticket legitimately. I know the cost of IPFAS/IRCAS has to be paid for, but that's about it. The RPI still gets paid even if everyone they see has a ticket.

But if people had the correct ticket then it wouldn't be a problem. Its th same with parking tickets etc. Of course its a money making scheme, why so outraged!?

If a Penalty Fare (or the pseudo-PF equivalent, as on Northern) gives a TOC more profit than a passenger legitimately buying a ticket, then there is no incentive for the TOC to provide adequate facilities to buy a ticket. There is also a perverse incentive for TOCs to issue Penalty Fares which are not legitimate, in the hope that some people will pay it for an easy life.

That's the business model that private parking firms operate on. Slap tickets on anything and everything and when people "appeal" give them a "settlement figure" to make the problem go away.

It's clear that the same business model has made it's way on to the railways, especially with Northern. Northern know fine well that most people are terrified of court and will pay £80 to make a problem go away, regardless of innocence or guilt (especially as most people would lose more than £80 taking a day off work to defend themselves at court).

 

[Clip]

If a Penalty Fare (or the pseudo-PF equivalent, as on Northern) gives a TOC more profit than a passenger legitimately buying a ticket, then there is no incentive for the TOC to provide adequate facilities to buy a ticket.

This is not true in the case of PFs as the TOCs that participate in the PF scheme have to provide some sort of facility - even if it is a Pertis - or they cannot issue a PF from that station.

 

[crehld]

This is not true in the case of PFs as the TOCs that participate in the PF scheme have to provide some sort of facility - even if it is a Pertis - or they cannot issue a PF from that station.

Hasn't stopped Northern issuing me three over the last couple of years when boarding at unstaffed stations with no ticket facilities!

 

[causton]

Hasn't stopped Northern issuing me three over the last couple of years when boarding at unstaffed stations with no ticket facilities!

That is exactly why most people aren't happy with Northern's scheme. It is not official with the government, it is not regulated, Northern are pretty much doing their own thing and trying to get away with it despite the fact they know they don't have adequate facilities to sell people tickets!

 

[crehld]

Am I right in thinking for all successful appeals the TOCs have to pay a fee to the 'independent' body? In which case given the amount of incorrectly issued PFs there are I can only imagine they make no money at all!

 

[northwichcat]

That is exactly why most people aren't happy with Northern's scheme. It is not official with the government, it is not regulated, Northern are pretty much doing their own thing and trying to get away with it despite the fact they know they don't have adequate facilities to sell people tickets!

The Northern contracted RPI staff are also known to have told people they have walked past a ticket buying opportunity if they walk past the little stall that says 'tickets' at Piccadilly platform 11 before they get to the RPIs, even though a passenger unfamiliar with the station could easily miss it if the station is busy.

 

[crehld]

That is exactly why most people aren't happy with Northern's scheme. It is not official with the government, it is not regulated, Northern are pretty much doing their own thing and trying to get away with it despite the fact they know they don't have adequate facilities to sell people tickets!

Oh, let's not be too hard on Northern - it's not just them! Over the years I have also received about six PFs from FGW, two from Southern and one from SWT - all of which should not have been issued and were successfully appealed

 

[Clip]

Hasn't stopped Northern issuing me three over the last couple of years when boarding at unstaffed stations with no ticket facilities!

I will bet you all the money in my life, my house and my wife that they have not issued you with a PF.

 

[crehld]

The Northern contracted RPI staff are also known to have told people they have walked past a ticket buying opportunity if they walk past the little stall that says 'tickets' at Piccadilly platform 11 before they get to the RPIs, even though a passenger unfamiliar with the station could easily miss it if the station is busy.

I have been told there is a fully staffed ticket office at Hellifield, which sells a full range of tickets and which I am expected to use before I board! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I will bet you all the money in my life, my house and my wife that they have not issued you with a PF.

No, it's one of those £80 fine thingys

 

[northwichcat]

No, it's one of those £80 fine thingys

I think it's called a 'Failure to Purchase' notice.

Maybe a protest group could organise a 'Failure to Offer Ticket Selling Facilities' notice

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is not true in the case of PFs as the TOCs that participate in the PF scheme have to provide some sort of facility - even if it is a Pertis - or they cannot issue a PF from that station.

Shouldn't, but do anyway.

I also said "adequate" facilities. London Midland have massively cut their ticket office hours- none of the ones near me stay open anywhere as long as the TSA says they should- but still attempt to enforce Penalty Fares into Euston. None of the TVMs around here take cash, assuming they are working and haven't run out of ticket stock.

And no, I don't want to do part 84,992 of "is a card-only TVM an opportunity to pay", I'd just say I don't think one is adequate.

 

[Clip]

Well Ill have to take your word on that.

 

[crehld]

Well Ill have to take your word on that.

My word is good so you'll be OK.

 

[Clip]

My word is good so you'll be OK.

Ha! Not yours - Artic Trolls on LMs provision of facilities to sell tickets and the giving out of PFs erroneously

 

[plastictaffy]

Ha! Not yours - Artic Trolls on LMs provision of facilities to sell tickets and the giving out of PFs erroneously

He's right. Most of the ticket machines don't take cash outside of office hours due to the local population of tossers helping themselves to the proceeds deposited inside with a crowbar. I can also assure you that the PF's are being thrown around like confetti at the moment. LM's new "Super RPI's" :roll: or whatever they're calling themselves this week are particularly keen at the moment. However, they're not covering the stations that need covering, at the times they need to be covered.
Guard's takings in general are going up at the moment, which tells me that the ticket offices aren't open when they should be. I've even known Euston to be shut in the middle of the afternoon. This is all part of LM's cost cutting. Most of us front line staff know exactly how to cut costs - but I'm not prepared to mention it on a forum my employers could look at!!!!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Both Euston ticket offices?! That's not on!

 

[island]

Both Euston ticket offices?! That's not on!

I very much doubt that the VTWC office is closed.

 

[crehld]

I very much doubt that the VTWC office is closed.

"You'd like the London Midland only ticket to Crewe sir? In that case you'll have to see my colleagues in the London Midland ticket office next to platform 8 as I can't sell you one of those."

 

[Hadders]

"You'd like the London Midland only ticket to Crewe sir? In that case you'll have to see my colleagues in the London Midland ticket office next to platform 8 as I can't sell you one of those."

Has that happened to you or is it just your imagination?

 

[northwichcat]

"You'd like the London Midland only ticket to Crewe sir? In that case you'll have to see my colleagues in the London Midland ticket office next to platform 8 as I can't sell you one of those."

Of course VT staff in a ticket office aren't allowed to do that.

However, aren't LM Great Escape tickets only available at LM managed ticket offices?

 

[crehld]

Has that happened to you or is it just your imagination?

Actually happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course VT staff in a ticket office aren't allowed to do that.

However, aren't LM Great Escape tickets only available at LM managed ticket offices?

My voucher says "any London Midland served stations" Which seems to mean any station an LM train calls at... So we'll see what happens at Crewe on Wednesday! To be fair they're pretty good there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway... Back to PFs!

 

[bb21]

Actually happened.

If this were before 2100 (or whatever time it is listed in Schedule 17), or at any time for travel on the same day, it needs to be reported, to the DfT if necessary.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

However, aren't LM Great Escape tickets only available at LM managed ticket offices?

I've been successfully issued one by the (usually pretty good folks) at Virgin Trains' ticket desk at Wolverhampton.