Just 16, at school, is she a child?

[35B]

I wouldn't expect a school girl to think she has to buy an adult ticket!

Strange, as a regular traveller in SW London, I was well aware that this schoolboy would have to pay full fare, and had my YP form ready for the evil day.

NOT a dig at the OPs daughter, as there wasn't a scheme that blurred the lines between adult & child, nor did I have to worry much then about administrative boundaries.

I'm with those who think that, based on whats been reported, the treatment has been ueavy handed but legally correct. I would just hope that those taking a strict liability line remember that just because the law says something, that does not make enforcement of the law just.

 

[Windmill10]

Thanks for all the replies - it's fascinating and surprising. Myself and kid are not regular train travellers, we live in a bus zone on the rural hills, this was her very first journey on a train by herself to Manchester. We are a bit green behind the ears (or whatever the saying is). My initial shock was the strength of the prosecutions letter - hence 'outraged of Hebden' stance in first comment. As I read the comments I can see the bigger picture i.e. dozens of lies and cheats.
Interestingly, I went to a party, lots of coats/bags everywhere. I got sozzled and someone's small bag slipped inside mine and I took it home without noticing. I imagined what would happen if Northern Rail etc. where overseeing this situation, and I dread to think of the time in prison/criminal record for what was a mistake that occurred without me having any awareness of it. In real life I returned the bag next day.
I'll be writing my third draft of the letter tonight in light of all the comments. I still believe if a teen asks for a child ticket, especially for travel beyond a border, then an ID card should be asked for; at least ask teen their age! If travellers want to cheat, surely they are more likely to use a machine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll be writing my third draft of the letter tonight in light of all the comments. I still believe if a teen asks for a child ticket, especially for travel beyond a border, then an ID card should be asked for

...which doesn't exist in the UK! Though it would be an option for the railway to say "child fares with child Photocard only", and issue those free as I believe they do. Then again, if they did, the "forgotten Railcard" issue would kick in again for some rather younger and more likely to forget individuals.

Driving licences are not available to those who can get child fare. And carrying passports would be a nonsense. I used to carry a copy of my birth certificate, but not having a photo on it that was basically worthless.

 

[Windmill10]

Though it would be an option for the railway to say "child fares with child Photocard only"

the buses are very strict on this, even picking up the kids from school gates in uniforms and they are very very very obviously not over 16.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which is why my kid (almost) always has one on her.

 

[DaleCooper]

Thanks for all the replies - it's fascinating and surprising. Myself and kid are not regular train travellers, we live in a bus zone on the rural hills, this was her very first journey on a train by herself to Manchester. We are a bit green behind the ears (or whatever the saying is). My initial shock was the strength of the prosecutions letter - hence 'outraged of Hebden' stance in first comment. As I read the comments I can see the bigger picture i.e. dozens of lies and cheats.

Look on the bright side, you and your daughter have learned a valuable lesson which you can pass on to the rest of your family and friends. If you continue to visit this forum you will learn even more useful information about the ways of the railways and how to avoid problems and even save money, I know I've learned a lot since discovering this forum.

 

[najaB]

I still believe if a teen asks for a child ticket, especially for travel beyond a border, then an ID card should be asked for; at least ask teen their age!

I agree with you on that, but I've no doubt that some parents might object to that - "He demanded personal details from my vulnerable daughter and refused to sell her a ticket until she pulled out her ID in front of everyone, she was so embarrassed." - I know you wouldn't, but some would.

I'll be writing my third draft of the letter tonight in light of all the comments.

I probably don't need to tell you this, remember when writing the letter what you want to get across to Northern - that you recognise that your daughter was technically in the wrong, but it wasn't deliberate and that you and her have both learned the rules so a prosecution isn't warranted. I'm sure that some of the more experienced forum members will be willing to cast an eye over it before you post it.

 

[6Gman]

But it is her fault she didn't know she couldn't use a child ticket to Manchester - if she had bought the correct ticket in the first place, none of this would have occurred. Some people need to take responsibility for themselves instead of always trying to find others to blame for their faults.

The OP had the option of asking the booking office clerk "Can I have a child rate ticket? I'm 16 but I also have one of these" [produces Metro card thing].

But didn't.

 

[DaleCooper]

The OP had the option of asking the booking office clerk "Can I have a child rate ticket? I'm 16 but I also have one of these" [produces Metro card thing].

But didn't.

It's quite clear that she didn't realise she needed to, mistaken yes, but innocently so.

 

[Greenback]

the buses are very strict on this, even picking up the kids from school gates in uniforms and they are very very very obviously not over 16.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which is why my kid (almost) always has one on her.

I always thought that the railway should issue child rate photocards for 14 and 15 year olds. It would have made my job a lot easier when I was a railway employee.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always thought that the railway should issue child rate photocards for 14 and 15 year olds. It would have made my job a lot easier when I was a railway employee.

It will if they are requested. I guess you mean them to be mandatory in the manner of Oyster Zip?

 

[extendedpaul]

the buses are very strict on this, even picking up the kids from school gates in uniforms and they are very very very obviously not over 16.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which is why my kid (almost) always has one on her.

A minor point but I recommend that you refer to your daughter rather than kid in correspondence. It creates a more professional impression.

 

[35B]

It will if they are requested. I guess you mean them to be mandatory in the manner of Oyster Zip?

I thought they were in some places. I certainly had to have one for London Underground use - and as I'm tall, before I was 14 too...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The OP's story has highlighted to me how confusing that the differing rules of PTEs can be, especially compared to the rules of the railway in general. It also doesn't help that these rules keep changing!
I grew up in West Yorkshire, and could pay half fare on the buses and trains until I turned 14. After this point I needed a scholar's Metro Permit to get half fare bus travel AND half fare train travel on journeys within West Yorkshire. The permits had a photo and lasted 2 years. When I turned 16, I got a YP Railcard as I regularly travelled beyond WY, and as I was going to college I was entitled to another 2 year Metro Permit. Due to illness my A levels took an extra year, so during my final year at college (once I turned 19) I had to pay full fare on the bus up to college but could still save 1/3 on the train!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought they were in some places. I certainly had to have one for London Underground use - and as I'm tall, before I was 14 too...

All that of course does is takes the same problem and reduces the age at which it applies...

 

[rs101]

Many, many years ago when I was 15, I remember a trip with friends to the cinema to see a 15 rated movie. Bus fare there was adult price (14 was their cutoff), cinema was adult price (they didn't sell child tickets to 15 movies) but the train fare home was a child fare.
To confuse matters further, a year later I went to 6th form college and had a free bus pass for this. That entitled me to child fares on all buses! It's no wonder people are confused about eligibility.

 

[185]

I still feel people have missed the point about the two, confusing child ages here. Buying train tickets at Hebden Bridge Station booking office:-

here are some 5-10 mile journeys for someone of her age...

Rochdale 12mins (she is an adult)
Halifax 17mins (she is a child)
Manchester 21mins (she is an adult)
Todmorden 6mins (she is a child)
Burnley 12mins (she is an adult)
Huddersfield 18mins (she is a child)
Littleborough 13mins (she is an adult)
Leeds 29mins (she is a child)

For those of us dealing with passengers and trying to enforce tickets on those lines it's literally every single service, and the PTEs poorly worded, misleading passes are to blame.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those of us dealing with passengers and trying to enforce tickets on those lines it's literally every single service, and the PTEs poorly worded, misleading passes are to blame.

It does seem like something that could do with a national standard for all land-based public transport. If necessary it could be done on a revenue neutral basis by changing the actual discount percentage for those bus companies who use a lower age.

 

[Greenback]

It will if they are requested. I guess you mean them to be mandatory in the manner of Oyster Zip?

Yes, I did indeed mean to say that they should be compulsory in order to get a child rate fare.

We used tog et youngsters coming up to the window with cans of cider, lager, even small bottles of wine, and smoking cigarettes then asking for a half fare and telling us they were fifteen but without any ID.

It would have been much easier for us as employees to be able to ask for a child rate card as proof of age.

Perhaps this might even have helped the young girl in this instance, as well as railway staff, as having a validity period may have raised questions as to whether she was still entitled to a half fare. It's always better to avoid problems if you can, I think, and I don't believe that there was any intention to deceive here, it was just a mistake.

 

[Windmill10]

Apologetic letter and cheque sent. (Plus a full explanation why oversight was made, opportunity for staff to have corrected it at point of sale). Fingers crossed it will be accepted and further action cancelled.
I'll update you all.
Again thank you all for the advice.

PS. I am a mature student studying design with a focus on service design - and life constantly throws up incidents where better design can help everyone proceed with less grief, gripe and stress. For all those still working in UK Rail, I hope incidents like this can help improve the system.

Here is an image of the half-fare card, notice lack of information regarding geographical limits where an adult fare will apply. (this info is on the website that requires an adult to process info/payment)

 

[Greenback]

That card looks like a triumph of style over substance!

 

[Emyr]

That's only one side of the card. What's on the other side?

 

[Anvil1984]

It mightn't say it on the pass but on the forms you use to apply for the pass and on Metro website it clearly states for use in West Yorkshire

 

[Deerfold]

That's only one side of the card. What's on the other side?

The one I had was very clear it was only valid in West Yorkshire (I rarely ventured beyond for many years due to the combination of going to full fare and paying non-PTE fares with none of these modern advances around to be quite a shock)- but mine was 20 years ago and used old fashioned cardboard and laminate instead of solid plastic.

 

[34D]

My kid bought a ticket from manned booth. She has a Metro half fare card for all her normal travel needs (usually various buses in West Yorkshire region, she has occasionally caught trains too), but this was a different journey (Hebden Bridge to Manchester).

She is still at school and had turned 16 a week before this journey, and as per- bought a child ticket. She was not asked her age, or to show her half fare pass.
If she had been told 16=adult fare, half fare card not valid on this travel - without question she would have paid an alternative fare. (She's like that, annoyingly honest).

Just to make the point (not made I don't think) that the other side of the blue card highlights to ticket office staff that she is in school year 11 (ie the point that people change from age 15 to age 16). This marker is that the card expires on 15 Sep 2015 (and is well known by those of us employed in delivering public transport in west yorkshire).

I would therefore attach more 'responsibility' to the booking office clerk than others have done, assuming that the blue pass was indeed shown.

Please update us once a response is received.

 

[DaleCooper]

She is still at school and had turned 16 a week before this journey, and as per- bought a child ticket. She was not asked her age, or to show her half fare pass.

I would therefore attach more 'responsibility' to the booking office clerk than others have done, assuming that the blue pass was indeed shown.

As you see from the OPs initial post the pass was not shown.

 

[34D]

As you see from the OPs initial post the pass was not shown.

I apologise. I read that wrongly.

So, the question is did she say "return to Manchester" and the clerk assume she was a child, or did she specifically say "child return".

I don't think the OP clarified that either way?

Incidentally, this problem should disappear next year when new booking office/TVM software (being ITSO-compatible) is brought into use.

This will require the blue card to be placed on a reader (as per how bus tickets are issued presently in WY) and then will only give a half fare to Manchester if the encoding shows the person is aged 15 or under.

No particular use to the mother in this thread though.

 

[Deerfold]

I apologise. I read that wrongly.

So, the question is did she say "return to Manchester" and the clerk assume she was a child, or did she specifically say "child return".

I don't think the OP clarified that either way?

Incidentally, this problem should disappear next year when new booking office/TVM software (being ITSO-compatible) is brought into use.

This will require the blue card to be placed on a reader (as per how bus tickets are issued presently in WY) and then will only give a half fare to Manchester if the encoding shows the person is aged 15 or under.

No particular use to the mother in this thread though.

How will that work? Surely there's no requirement for a WY half fare pass to be held for a Child ticket to be issued between Hebden Bridge and Manchester?

 

[34D]

How will that work? Surely there's no requirement for a WY half fare pass to be held for a Child ticket to be issued between Hebden Bridge and Manchester?

Quite, but if a blue m-card is held (or an iGo) then requiring it to be placed on a reader to validate that the passenger is young enough (whether a paper ticket is being issued, or in future a ticket held on the ITSO card) seems a good idea.

Obviously the normal 'child' button would remain on machines to cater for younger children and those without passes.

 

[Deerfold]

Quite, but if a blue m-card is held (or an iGo) then requiring it to be placed on a reader to validate that the passenger is young enough (whether a paper ticket is being issued, or in future a ticket held on the ITSO card) seems a good idea.

Obviously the normal 'child' button would remain on machines to cater for younger children and those without passes.

But I'm thinking that if the clerk didn't ask to see the card in this instance, presumably they'd just press Child even with that in place.

 

[Windmill10]

Child ticket to Manchester was requested, no card asked for or shown. Everyone was slack on that day.
Nervously waiting for a reply from Northern.