Just 16, at school, is she a child?

[Islineclear3_1]

Could it be possible that your child thinks she is still a child until she reaches 18 years old? My daughter is approaching 16 and in my eyes, she's still a child.

Personally I think child fares should be extended until the age of 18 but sadly in many industries, even children of 14/15 are charged adult rates

Presumably you have not shown her this letter. Personally I feel this is overkill and cowardly on the part of the TOC and a "quiet word" from the inspector would easily have sufficed in this case. Perhaps he has not been trained how to address children?

I hope you reach a satisfactory conclusion with the TOC

 

[Anvil1984]

Totally disagree. The Revenue Inspector / Guard / whoever has done their job correctly. Passenger travelling on invalid ticket and has no money. The staff cannot give them a simple Unpaid Fares Notice as can't saddle an under 18 with a debt this way so must put in a Travel Irregularity Report. It is up to the company what happens next. When the OPs child applied for the Young Personss Travelcard (not to be confused with Railcard) it's states that that pass is for use wholly within West Yorkshire

I'm not saying the child is 100% in the wrong but to blame the staff for this situation is wrong they have followed procedure by the book, not to sound jobs worthy but if they let a passenger off once what record is there if they do it again. The decision on how to proceed is not up to that member of staff but to prosecutions / customer services

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Totally disagree. The Revenue Inspector / Guard / whoever has done their job correctly. Passenger travelling on invalid ticket and has no money. The staff cannot give them a simple Unpaid Fares Notice as can't saddle an under 18 with a debt this way so must put in a Travel Irregularity Report. It is up to the company what happens next. When the OPs child applied for the Young Personss Travelcard (not to be confused with Railcard) it's states that that pass is for use wholly within West Yorkshire

So in this case, you would prosecute this child on her first misadventure? I'm sure you would think differently if she was your child....perhaps?

 

[najaB]

So in this case, you would prosecute this child on her first misadventure?

Guards don't prosecute.

 

[ainsworth74]

So in this case, you would prosecute this child on her first misadventure?

As well as guards not doing any prosecution, how can the guard know that this is the first time? Outside of someone travelling on their birthday I suppose.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As well as guards not doing any prosecution, how can the guard know that this is the first time? Outside of someone travelling on their birthday I suppose.

Yes I'm well aware guards don't prosecute....

Anyway, the OP mentioned an inspector - not a guard. He [pedant on] (the inspector) [pedant off] could have had a quiet word rather than send this case in for potential prosecution.

Actually I would be surprised if this went to court

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyway, the OP mentioned an inspector - not a guard. He [pedant on] (the inspector) [pedant off] could have had a quiet word rather than send this case in for potential prosecution.

They could have but they're well within their rights to not do so. To be honest I don't blame any rail staff that takes a zero tolerance approach to travelling on child tickets. It must be one of the most common forms of fare evasion and I would wager one in which an excuse of 'oh I didn't realise' is often proffered. So how are they supposed to know who is telling the truth and who is trying their luck?

This isn't to suggest that the OPs child was trying their luck. It sounds like from what's been said they've been unlucky and would have been an excellent candidate for a 'quiet word' but for whatever reason the member of staff, as is their right (you might say responsibility), decided to refer it up the chain of command.

 

[Anvil1984]

No one is being prosecuted yet. the OP has only received the "please explain" letter not a summons nor the £80 Failure to Pay letter.
If it was an RPI not the guard then he would have to fill out the paperwork to allow the girl to travel home anyway as they can't force a conductor to accept an invalid ticket without possibly getting themselves into trouble.
I stand by my guns the staff have done nothing wrong here they have recorded details and passed it on to the Debt and Prosecutions department as they saw fit (hopefully just warning letter if it is the first attempt) Unlike colleagues at other depots Northern and STM RPIs are not PACE trained and do not fill out MG11s so can't bring prosecutions directly

It is not clear from the post whether it was STM barrier staff at Victoria nor staff on the train. Inspector could mean either as most passengers believe a conductor to be a ticket inspector

 

[Fare-Cop]

Whilst I agree that it is extremely unlikely ( in my view ) that the incident as described would result in prosecution, there are a number of factors that might determine how any case is processed.

Most TOCs ( rightly in my view ) have a policy of not prosecuting matters concerning avoidance of fare in the Youth Courts, however there is no legal bar to doing so.

What all of us never know on the forums ( unless any user has first hand experience of the incident ) is what really happened and how the interaction went on the day.

As a parent it is entirely natural to believe ( or want to believe ) that all of our children are always little angels. I know that I felt that way and our two are now well into their thirties and going through exactly the same feelings and problems with our young teenage grandchildren.

Posters frequently describe how the 'jobsworth' inspector 'failed the attitude test', but in the case of child ticket disputes this is always a third party description. It may of course be justified in some cases.

On the other side of the issue, is it not just as possible that our supposed 'little angel' may well have failed that attitude test miserably themselves and perhaps that is why a report was made?

I too think that with education now continuing until at least 18 for most people there is a strong case for having a national concession until that age is reached, but under the current rules that is not the case. At 16 years a traveller without any authority to claim a discount must purchase an adult fare.

There may be a case for including reminders of such minor life skills in general education, but why is it that people suggest it's always someone else's responsibility to give that information. In my daily role I always find this the most difficult thing to come to terms with when reading lengthy letters from parents who are 'furious' because their offspring have been stopped and spoken to by rail staff when not having the correct ticket.

The usual comment goes like this 'I know that s/he was in the wrong and should have had the proper ticket, but there are no signs and no-one told him/her so how are they supposed to know!' or words to that effect.

The rule has been in place for at least the last 50 years and that response always seems to be even more ridiculous when it comes from people who frequently admit having had a problem with a child-rate ticket as a youngster themselves.

I know that this is going to upset some people, but having spent the last 37 years in the industry it seems to me that this particular problem is part of a trend in increased opportunistic fare evasion. This is in some part caused by the proliferation of self-service ticket machines and online facilities, because it simply isn't feasible to finance fully staffed booking offices & barriers at every station now, but seems to coincide with the apparent abdication of parenting responsibility in some sectors of society.

Somehow it seems we now live in a society where it's always someone else's fault.

 

[Greenback]

Could it be possible that your child thinks she is still a child until she reaches 18 years old? My daughter is approaching 16 and in my eyes, she's still a child.

When is a child not a child is one of the most difficult questions of our times, both for a parent and their offspring! Most of the young people I've ever known would have hated to be called a child at that age. Then again, my aged parents would still refer to me as one of their children, and I will always be seen as a child to them.

Of course, the law says differently and has set different ages as being able to do different things. In this case, 16 is deemed to be an adult in terms of buying a rail ticket

Personally I think child fares should be extended until the age of 18 but sadly in many industries, even children of 14/15 are charged adult rates

I agree. I think that the railway is quite generous compared to some places, but we also need to recognise that society has changed from the days when the age was last increased.

Presumably you have not shown her this letter. Personally I feel this is overkill and cowardly on the part of the TOC and a "quiet word" from the inspector would easily have sufficed in this case. Perhaps he has not been trained how to address children?

I don't agree. None of us, including the OP, was there to witness whatever occurred, therefore we can't conclude that it was either appropriate or inappropriate in the circumstances.

So in this case, you would prosecute this child on her first misadventure? I'm sure you would think differently if she was your child....perhaps?

It's too early to talk about prosecution. My fear, though, was that an angry or indignant reply would push Northern in that direction, whereas a more conciliatory and apologetic reply would have the opposite effect.

As a parent it is entirely natural to believe ( or want to believe ) that all of our children are always little angels. I know that I felt that way and our two are now well into their thirties and going through exactly the same feelings and problems with our young teenage grandchildren.

Exactly. It's often difficult to be objective when it's your own children or relations involved. This is quite normal, but it does have the potential to make things worse rather than better.

I too think that with education now continuing until at least 18 for most people there is a strong case for having a national concession until that age is reached, but under the current rules that is not the case. At 16 years a traveller without any authority to claim a discount must purchase an adult fare.

Quite. No matter what any of us thinks should happen, and what should or could be changed, that is how things are at the moment, and that's what we have to deal with here.

There may be a case for including reminders of such minor life skills in general education, but why is it that people suggest it's always someone else's responsibility to give that information. In my daily role I always find this the most difficult thing to come to terms with when reading lengthy letters from parents who are 'furious' because their offspring have been stopped and spoken to by rail staff when not having the correct ticket.

The usual comment goes like this 'I know that s/he was in the wrong and should have had the proper ticket, but there are no signs and no-one told him/her so how are they supposed to know!' or words to that effect.

The rule has been in place for at least the last 50 years and that response always seems to be even more ridiculous when it comes from people who frequently admit having had a problem with a child-rate ticket as a youngster themselves.

I know that this is going to upset some people, but having spent the last 37 years in the industry it seems to me that this particular problem is part of a trend in increased opportunistic fare evasion. This is in some part caused by the proliferation of self-service ticket machines and online facilities, because it simply isn't feasible to finance fully staffed booking offices & barriers at every station now, but seems to coincide with the apparent abdication of parenting responsibility in some sectors of society.

Somehow it seems we now live in a society where it's always someone else's fault.

It doesn't upset me. The only thing that I am not sympathetic about in this situation is the complaint that such things should be taught at school and rules need to be explained. This is by no means an isolated example, so I don't want to sound too harsh on the OP, as I mean only to comment in general terms, but people apparently now need to be told that they shouldn't do all sorts of things that would have been common sense only a couple of generations ago.

Couple this with the reluctance to take personal responsibility and the increased tendency to blame others for your own mistakes and I agree that there is far less teaching of what is right and what is wrong. I don't believe that this is solely a duty of educational establishments either.

Having said all that, I do think that in this case there are mitigating factors, such as the disparity in ages between what is allowed with a Metro card and what is allowed for travel into Manchester. Even though it is the responsibility of the user to know the validity of the pass as in where the boundaries are, with a very recent birthday I think that I still have a lot of sympathy for the traveller. Though I don't have so much for complaints about the wording of the letter or how the staff may or may not have behaved.

 

[theblackwatch]

I too think that with education now continuing until at least 18 for most people there is a strong case for having a national concession until that age is reached, but under the current rules that is not the case. At 16 years a traveller without any authority to claim a discount must purchase an adult fare.

If you think the railways are bad, on many bus companies, the age for child fares is under 13 - on some it is as low as under 11!

Somehow it seems we now live in a society where it's always someone else's fault.

Indeed, and even in the OP on this thread, we have a parent who appears 'furious' and wants an apology after they (or their child) made a mistake, even if it innocent, rather than wanting to apologise for the mistake. Is the TOC going to look more favourably on someone who apologises for what they've done wrong and take responibility for their error, or someone who doesn't?

 

[DaleCooper]

Indeed, and even in the OP on this thread, we have a parent who appears 'furious' and wants an apology after they (or their child) made a mistake, even if it innocent, rather than wanting to apologise for the mistake.

To be fair to the OP I think their attitude softened and they accepted many of the points made as the thread progressed, which is fair enough.

 

[Be3G]

Personally, I think this is all too easy a mistake to make for someone who isn't a seasoned rail traveller. When I grew up it was very clear in my head that (in general ‘life’ terms) I would not be an adult until I was 18 and not a day earlier. Indeed, we regularly use in English the word ‘adult’ to mean something suitable for over-18s. I can therefore see how, given no reason to believe differently, one could easily assume that an adult train ticket is for people aged 18 or over.

The underlined bit is important. We all know that on the railways adulthood starts at 16, but we only know that because at one point or another we've learned that fact; I think for me, it happened when looking at one of those fares information booklets TfL used to print many moons ago. However, someone who just uses the train when they have to whilst taking no particular interest in it will not have any intention of doing special research in to its ticketing peculiarities. They will just go to a station, buy a ticket, catch the train, and that's that. If no-one (or machine) points out to them that ‘adult’ on the railways means 16+ not 18+, then I think it would be entirely reasonable for an unseasoned traveller to not realise that the railway's definition of ‘adult’ is different to the generally understood definition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's something that's shifting over time. There used to be a lot more situations where 16 was considered an adult - smoking being one example, leaving education another (and then you've got driving as the oddity at 17) - and we are slowly but surely shifting to standardising everything to 18, which probably does cause that kind of confusion.

I don't know how old Be3G is, but when I was a kid (I'm 35 now) it was far more of a continuum than now.

 

[rdwarr]

Does't seem that long ago that you ha to be under fourteen. But it probably was - getting old here

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couple this with the reluctance to take personal responsibility and the increased tendency to blame others for your own mistakes and I agree that there is far less teaching of what is right and what is wrong. I don't believe that this is solely a duty of educational establishments either.

Having said all that, I do think that in this case there are mitigating factors, such as the disparity in ages between what is allowed with a Metro card and what is allowed for travel into Manchester. Even though it is the responsibility of the user to know the validity of the pass as in where the boundaries are, with a very recent birthday I think that I still have a lot of sympathy for the traveller. Though I don't have so much for complaints about the wording of the letter or how the staff may or may not have behaved.

This all goes 2 ways in a sense. Yes, there is probably a decrease in people willing to take responsibility for their own mistakes. However what there also is is less discretion generally, and part of the reason for that is automation and increased passenger loadings.

Go back to the early 1980s, and you'd have had a job buying a child ticket over-age because the booking clerk (rather than machine) selling it you would have refused. If you'd got away with that, the guard/TTI doing a full ticket inspection would make sure you coughed up full fare. If you still got away with that, the station staff at the barrier at your destination would have got it out of you.

Now there are far fewer checks, so you have things like PFs and prosecutions to provide a consequence (because with destaffing you can't guarantee people will always get caught). But those punishments are rather more severe than what they would have been back then, and you can sort-of understand why people are slightly taken aback by them at times.

 

[185]

Agree that procedure has been followed here, but I suggest there are certainly mitigating circumstances that could confuse the hell out of the punters, namely WYPTE and TfGM having a different child age (end of Y11) for journeys 'wholly in their areas' than the railway's child age (5-15) when travelling between the two areas.

Northern & FTPE would do well to label TVMs selection pages as "Child 5-15" when a fare for outside the county is selected, or Child - 'WY Half Fare pass' / Child - GM 'Igo card holder' for jouneys within their county.

In defence of the passenger, it's easy to see the confusion when you work on services operating in the areas, and are faced with a plethora of conflicting PTE rules.

 

[Bellbell]

I show more discretion than most but it wears you down - the sob stories, the defensiveness, the agro when you refuse to use discretion, the threats to complain if you don't give in. Yes, you develop a radar and yes, there are genuine cases but there are also loads of people just trying it on. Plus, if I believe A to be a genuine case and allow them early travel for example, how do I justify denying B, who's overheard and repeated A's story? Consequently I have a couple of busy, peak trains on which I show no discretion whatsoever. As so often in life, a few ruin it for everyone.

The above is a general rant and not aimed at the op. I do empathise, not particularly over a child needing to be under 16 but over the confusion about the card's validity. I'll be honest though, if someone launched a defence based on the idea that all possible relevant restrictions must be detailed to everyone at any possible point that they might fall foul of them, I'd lose sympathy fairly quickly.

 

[6Gman]

This all goes 2 ways in a sense. Yes, there is probably a decrease in people willing to take responsibility for their own mistakes. However what there also is is less discretion generally, and part of the reason for that is automation and increased passenger loadings.

Go back to the early 1980s, and you'd have had a job buying a child ticket over-age because the booking clerk (rather than machine) selling it you would have refused. If you'd got away with that, the guard/TTI doing a full ticket inspection would make sure you coughed up full fare. If you still got away with that, the station staff at the barrier at your destination would have got it out of you.

Now there are far fewer checks, so you have things like PFs and prosecutions to provide a consequence (because with destaffing you can't guarantee people will always get caught). But those punishments are rather more severe than what they would have been back then, and you can sort-of understand why people are slightly taken aback by them at times.

The OP said that her daughter bought from a "manned booth". Which I assume to mean a booking office.

 

[DaleCooper]

The OP said that her daughter bought from a "manned booth". Which I assume to mean a booking office.

You're correct, one complaint was that the person selling the ticket didn't challenge her. I refer you to post #3.

 

[Abpj17]

Fab. Informative design.
Not as if school teach you these things, so they need to communicated elsewhere.

Schools can't practically teach everything a human needs to know - parents/carers have to take a little responsibilty.

 

[Fare-Cop]

You're correct, one complaint was that the person selling the ticket didn't challenge her. I refer you to post #3.

That's right, but frequently another complaint that will follow in these letters if sold a child-rate ticket when they asked for one is 'This lone male member of staff demanded to know my young and vulnerable daughter's age, this is inappropriate, she 'felt threatened', was 'brought to tears' or similar whether there is any substance to it or not.

Too frequently this results in some Customer Relations staff doing exactly what the writer intended and acting on the allegation by impulse in order to avoid further correspondence in the belief that this might result in bad publicity rather than ensure that someone conducts a proper investigation.

If this happens a few times a member of staff may well feel that it isn't worth the hassle of checking and will just issue the ticket requested. Probably saying to themselves. 'Well, it is the purchaser's responsibility to ensure that they buy the right ticket after all'.

I am not condoning this by either front line staff, or backroom CR staff either, although I can see how the fear of unjustified, but high numbers of complaints can drive the reaction

If the young person before you looks older than 16 and asks for or presents a child-rate ticket, politely check their age.

As an illustration of how difficult dealing with this can be, around 32 years ago I was working on a large & busy booking office window when a young man well over 6ft tall asked the clerk on the next window for a 'half to Leicester'.

The clerk said 'How old are you?' to which the youth replied '15 mate' and without further prompting showed ID confirming this, he was obviously used to being asked and well prepared. My colleague, thinking he was being humorous, said 'Christ, I hope you're not going to grow up!' The lad took it in good part, laughed and having got his ticket went off happily to catch his train.

A few days later a written complaint was received, not from the lad, not from his parents, but from an entirely uninvolved observer who had been in the next queue and had overheard the exchange. Rightly or wrongly the content of this letter was disregarded...........what do you think would happen in that situation today?

Schools can't practically teach everything a human needs to know - parents/carers have to take a little responsibilty.

You're absolutely right, but I'd change just one word to say that it is a natural requirement of good parenting to take a lot of responsibility and therein lies the rub.

In my experience far too many parents will not shrink from assuming responsibility to write and complain, demanding 'apology' or 'compensation for the hurt and anguish caused', or that the staff are disciplined, or sacked as in a letter that I received this week, but are more than happy to pass responsibility for helping their children to avoid the problem in the first place to someone else.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Going back to the original post:

The girl's ticket was checked on the way to, or at Manchester and deemed ok (whoever checked the ticket wasn't doing the job properly. This is not her fault.

Unfortunately she was checked on her return journey by a more eagle-eyed inspector who was doing his job properly.

As I mentioned before, a "quiet word" from this inspector would easily have sufficed and spared any bad feelings.

What is this world coming to?

 

[najaB]

As I mentioned before, a "quiet word" from this inspector would easily have sufficed and spared any bad feelings.

What is this world coming to?

Unfortunately, a world in which a lot of people try to game the system to save a little money, and cause people like the OP's daughter to get caught up in the resulting mess. I'd feel safe betting £50 that the inspector/guard who reported the OP's daughter had dealt with at least a dozen fare dodgers already for the day.

 

[DaleCooper]

The girl's ticket was checked on the way to, or at Manchester and deemed ok (whoever checked the ticket wasn't doing the job properly. This is not her fault.

Are ticket inspectors expected to ask everyone their age? If she looked under 16 then the inspector did their job correctly.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Are ticket inspectors expected to ask everyone their age? If she looked under 16 then the inspector did their job correctly.

So who are you saying did his job correctly - the first person at Manchester when the girl arrived, or the inspector when she departed? You can argue this to death as to who did/did not do his job properly depending on which point of view you take, but clearly this shows a inconsistency on the part of the TOC.

It is not the girl's fault if a representative of, or acting on behalf of the TOC did not perform his job correctly

 

[DaleCooper]

So who are you saying did his job correctly - the first person at Manchester when the girl arrived, or the inspector when she departed? You can argue this to death as to who did/did not do his job properly depending on which point of view you take, but clearly this shows a inconsistency on the part of the TOC.

It is not the girl's fault if a representative of, or acting on behalf of the TOC did not perform his job correctly

All it shows is inconsistency in the way people judge the age of someone, to the first inspector she looked 15 or less, to the second she looked like she might be over 15 so they checked.

And I agree it wasn't the girl's fault just a chain of unfortunate circumstances.

 

[theblackwatch]

It is not the girl's fault if a representative of, or acting on behalf of the TOC did not perform his job correctly

But it is her fault she didn't know she couldn't use a child ticket to Manchester - if she had bought the correct ticket in the first place, none of this would have occurred. Some people need to take responsibility for themselves instead of always trying to find others to blame for their faults.

 

[gray1404]

What do u think the way forward on this will be now? Have you written a letter to the TOC yet?

 

[GearJammer]

Let the matter go to court, when they issue a court date get her head teacher to issue a letter telling the court she can't attend on that date due to important school exams.

When she does go to court get her to go in her school uniform and if she needs a couple of character witnesses I suggest her head master and form teacher.

All said with tounge firmly in cheek of corse.

But seriously, it should highlight the fact that what this boils down to is the fact that while she may be 16..... she is still a school girl!
I wouldn't expect a school girl to think she has to buy an adult ticket!