Just 16, at school, is she a child?

[Windmill10]

My kid bought a ticket from manned booth. She has a Metro half fare card for all her normal travel needs (usually various buses in West Yorkshire region, she has occasionally caught trains too), but this was a different journey (Hebden Bridge to Manchester).

She is still at school and had turned 16 a week before this journey, and as per- bought a child ticket. She was not asked her age, or to show her half fare pass.
If she had been told 16=adult fare, half fare card not valid on this travel - without question she would have paid an alternative fare. (She's like that, annoyingly honest).

She traveled to Manchester, her ticket was checked. No problem. She spent all her pocket money in Manchester and returned home. On return her ticket was inspected and deemed not valid, but she had no money left. The inspector made her feel humiliated and shamed, possibly spouting 'criminal record, broken the law etc etc'.
She bought in good faith, ticket was sold without question.

As a parent, I'm furious. I've just read the prosecution letter design to intimidate and yes, it does intimidate, cause stress, upset, fear, tears. How dare they!!!?! A mistake was made, my child did not know the particular rule for this particular route was different from the other rules. The staff should be responsible for making it clear at point of sale.

By the way, my kid does not have much experience in traveling on trains by herself.

I'm about to reply to prosecution letter. Any tips? Can I get an apology? Can I get Northern Rail to take some responsibility for this mistake? Will my child's name always be on a 'warning: potential criminal' list?

THANKS in advance for any helpful advise.
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btw The occasional trains she catches are on this same route but don't cross the Lancashire/Yorkshire price boundary. She traveled on these trains at 15 yrs old, but not at 16.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

She has a Metro half fare card for all her normal travel needs (usually various buses in West Yorkshire region, she has occasionally caught trains too),

 

[Anvil1984]

Sorry to sound harsh but in the eyes of the railway 16 is classed as an adult.
Local PTEs have half fare schemes for 16 to 18 but only in thir boundaries (so in your case only in West Yorkshire)

The railways have a big issue with late teens pretending to be 15 and below so I doubt you will get an apology and the abusive inspector line is one we hear too much on here, but he was right in what he was saying which is the main thing. All that can be done is to write an honest letter apologising for the incident and the reasons why

At the end of the day if she's asked for a child ticket via showing that pass or not and has been caught afterwards it's her responsibility

 

[DaleCooper]

What are the ticket office staff to do, she asked for a child's ticket, presumably looked 15 so why should they question her?

 

[Windmill10]

Local PTEs have half fare schemes for 16 to 18 but only in thir boundaries (so in your case only in West Yorkshire)

As a teen, my first wrong ticket incident was dealt with in a kind and informative way. Not dealt as a 'serious incident' matter with threatening letters.
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presumably looked 15

she looks like a teen, the ones who could be 13, 14, 15, 16, or 17 - when you are at least a generation older the difference is hard to judge. They are likely to still be a kid, still at home, still being fed meals, still at school - unlikely to know there is an economic/regulatory boundary invisible to the eye in Littlebourough.

 

[northwichcat]

The new ticket design (being rolled out currently) makes it clear that a 16 year old cannot travel on a child ticket: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2104344&postcount=410

 

[Windmill10]

Fab. Informative design.
Not as if school teach you these things, so they need to communicated elsewhere.

 

[DaleCooper]

The inspector made her feel humiliated and shamed, possibly spouting 'criminal record, broken the law etc etc

Perhaps the inspector said "I'm sorry but it's my duty to inform you that you have broken the law and that could lead to a criminal record". Even that might make an unsophisticated 16 year old feel humiliated and shamed.

 

[ainsworth74]

As a teen, my first wrong ticket incident was dealt with in a kind and informative way. Not dealt as a 'serious incident' matter with threatening letters.

You obviously got lucky and in this case your daughter was not.

For the railway once you turn 16 you have to buy adult tickets (unless some other concession applies) and by not buying an adult ticket your daughter has opened herself up to the course of action that the train company is taking.

It most likely was a wholly innocent mistake and you have my sympathy but it is a serious matter and whilst you can certainly plead your case and hope they respond positively equally Northern Rail would be within rights to take court action as your daughter did not have a valid ticket.

You also have to think how many people and parents will write to them having done something wrong but trying to wriggle out of it by saying things like 'it was a mistake' or 'I didn't realise'.

 

[DaleCooper]

As a teen, my first wrong ticket incident was dealt with in a kind and informative way. Not dealt as a 'serious incident' matter with threatening letters.

Fab. Informative design.
Not as if school teach you these things, so they need to communicated elsewhere.

Is there anyone in the family who could advise her on such matters, maybe someone who has been in a similar position themselves?

 

[trentside]

Is there anyone in the family who could advise her on such matters, maybe someone who has been in the same position themselves?

In situations such as these, I do tend to give the kids a bit of a lecture. It usually involves the line, "If I catch you with a child ticket again, you're parents will be getting a letter from the company telling them what you've been doing. If you don't want that, buy the correct ticket in future". I try not to be overly harsh, and try to avoid mentioning criminal proceedings, fraud etc. That gets saved for those with special attitude.

 

[Windmill10]

Is there anyone in the family who could advise her on such matters, maybe someone who has been in the same position themselves?

hee hee. My incident was aged 13 for not having a half fare pass in London. My child's incident is that her half fare pass was not valid at a certain point (the points of valid and not valid are not described on the card itself)
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In situations such as these, I do tend to give the kids a bit of a lecture.

My kid lectures me! She is highly respectful of all rules and regulations. She is not the anarchist or rebel. It was a mis-selling mistake, not a cheat.

 

[DaleCooper]

hee hee. My incident was aged 13 for not having a half fare pass in London. My child's incident is that her half fare pass was not valid at a certain point (the points of valid and not valid are not described on the card itself)

I edited my post to say "similar" before I read your post, sorry.

 

[Greenback]

I'm sympathetic because your daughter has only recently turned 16, and that age is not considered an adult these days half as much as it was when a larger number of people left school at that age or before. On top of that, it seems that this was a genuine case of not knowing the rules on adult tickets, with the additional confusion over the fact that she is still eligible for half fares on the bus network.

Having said all that, and despite the fact that I'd like to see the age raised, those are the rules at the present time and ignorance is not a valid defence.

I'd advise forgetting about any apology, or about trying to get Northern to shoulder some of the blame. Simply be apologetic, and state the facts as they are; namely that your daughter has only just reached the age of 16 (including some evidence of this will help) and that she was unfamiliar with the rules regarding rail travel. Assure them that this oversight will not be repeated, and that you would be willing to pay the appropriate amount to cover the fare that should have been paid, plus an amount to cover the administration costs of dealing with this matter.

Then all you can do is wait for the response.

 

[185]

Is a West Yorkshire PTE pass held? Is it Young Person's photocard - Year 7-11 (11-16) ?? If it is, then here may lieth the problem. As in Manchester, the U16 pass expires when 16and a half ish, at the end of Year 11 school holidays. Within their own county, this entitles the bearer to half fare when 16-and-a-bit. Outside the county, it's full.

However, Metro's website (West Yorkshire's PTE) makes no mention of travelling outside the county, just like TfGM don't on theirs.

If a child is aged 11 to 16*, they need a Young Person’s PhotoCard to be eligible for half fare travel on virtually all buses in West Yorkshire. It also provides them with proof of identity if they want to get a half price rail season ticket.
Please be aware that without a Young Person's PhotoCard a child will have to pay the full adult fare for their journey.
A Young Person's PhotoCard is also needed to buy and use a SchoolPlus MetroCard. More about the SchoolPlus MetroCard.
A Young Person's PhotoCard entitles the bearer to:
•Half fare** bus and train travel in West Yorkshire at any time of the day, including evenings and weekends.
•Purchase SchoolPlus MetroCards
•Buy concessionary train-only DayRovers
*A Young Person's PhotoCard is valid until 15 September following the cardholder's 16th birthday
** Half price fares are rounded down to the nearest 1p

http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/Under26/YoungPeople/benefits/

 

[scott118]

Child aged five to fifteen
Children aged five to fifteen inclusive get a 50% discount on most tickets. In addition, up to two children under five can travel free with each fare paying passenger.
If the child looks 16 or over, it may be appropriate for proof of age to be carried when purchasing the ticket and also when travelling to avoid embarrassment.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46494.aspx

 

[Windmill10]

Assure them that this oversight will not be repeated, and that you would be willing to pay the appropriate amount to cover the fare that should have been paid, plus an amount to cover the administration costs of dealing with this matter.

Then all you can do is wait for the response.

Wow - it's like they are all powerful, and MUST be respected or else. I thought they were privatised and as companies they should have customer service standards.
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Is a West Yorkshire PTE pass held? Is it Young Person's photocard - Year 7-11 (11-16) ?? If it is, then here may lieth the problem. As in Manchester, the U16 pass expires when 16and a half ish, at the end of Year 11 school holidays. Within their own county, this entitles the bearer to half fare when 16-and-a-bit. Outside the county, it's full.

However, Metro's website (West Yorkshire's PTE) makes no mention of travelling outside the county, just like TfGM don't on theirs.


http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/Under26/YoungPeople/benefits/

METRO card - notice no mention of West Yorkshire only card. Not sure my kid knows where those boundaries are. I know people with Lancs postcodes who argue they're in Yorkshire.

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure my kid knows where those boundaries are. I know people with Lancs postcodes who argue they're in Yorkshire.

While it's understandable if your daughter doesn't know which county Todmorden or Saddleworth is in I would hope she knows that Manchester is not in Yorkshire.

 

[Windmill10]

However, Metro's website (West Yorkshire's PTE) makes no mention of travelling outside the county, just like TfGM don't on theirs.


http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/Under26/YoungPeople/benefits/

It is a Metro card - notice no mention of 'West Yorkshire only card' not valid to x,y,or z. There's no 'bing bong announcement' "You are now leaving West Yorkshire" on the train. Why have a million rules and not communicate them. Jeez.

 

[DaleCooper]

METRO card - notice no mention of West Yorkshire only card. Not sure my kid knows where those boundaries are. I know people with Lancs postcodes who argue they're in Yorkshire.

I'm sure your daughter has fallen foul of the rules quite innocently but you keep going on about "she doesn't know this, why wasn't she told that" well I'm afraid that's a parent's responsibilty when their children are venturing out on their own.

 

[Windmill10]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm going be Mum in the non-virtual world now. But, I'll have a think about my reply to Northern Rail, offer the difference (the excess on half the journey where the half fare card was not valid) - but it would pain me deeply to pay an admin cost for an automated letter with a default 'you are a criminal' tone sent to a 'child'.
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well I'm afraid that's a parent's responsibilty when their children are venturing out on their own.

I know, my knowledge of regulatory boundaries invisible to the eye, are just very poor. I've learned a lot this week.

 

[Merseysider]

Unfortunately, as alluded to previously, Northern are within their rights to ask for a financial settlement in leu of taking the matter further. There is a lesser likelihood of them going straight for prosecution, and an even smaller chance of them dropping the matter completely (it can happen - see attached!)

I don't think it's possible to predict which way this will go yet, but what is certain is that the tone and content of the letter back to Northern will have a substantial effect on what follows.

Being polite and curteous, and including an apology for the mix up on behalf of your daughter (if you yourself write the letter), and offering to pay the remainder of the fare due, is a must.

 

[Flamingo]

It might be worth considering getting your daughter a Young Persons railcard, as that will give her a discount if she carries it with her (but if she forgets it it's a whole new world of trouble...).

As regards your indignation, you are falling into the trap of confusing "Poor customer service" with your daughter being caught (inadvertently) committing a criminal act. The railway hold all the cards - phrase your reply accordingly.

 

[RailAleFan]

For the railway once you turn 16 you have to buy adult tickets (unless some other concession applies) and by not buying an adult ticket your daughter has opened herself up to the course of action that the train company is taking.

I've got a problem with this, because the hard line approach doesn't take into account "conditioned behaviour". A regular under 16 rail user will become so used to asking for a child ticket that I can totally understand the fact that having just passed their 16th birthday they walk up to the ticket office and ask for a child ticket out of habit.

That sort of thing should not be punished by anything other than a request for the difference between the child and adult ticket involved.

 

[DaleCooper]

I've got a problem with this, because the hard line approach doesn't take into account "conditioned behaviour". A regular under 16 rail user will become so used to asking for a child ticket that I can totally understand the fact that having just passed their 16th birthday they walk up to the ticket office and ask for a child ticket out of habit.

That sort of thing should not be punished by anything other than a request for the difference between the child and adult ticket involved.

First offence only presumably.

I would query the "conditioned behaviour" aspect as I would think reaching the age of 16 is quite a milestone and if aware of the requirement to purchase an adult ticket at that age they would either do so proudly or ask for a child's deliberately. I think ignorance of the requirement is more likely and again point to the parent's role.

 

[Windmill10]

First offence only presumably.

I would query the "conditioned behaviour" aspect as I would think reaching the age of 16 is quite a milestone and if aware of the requirement to purchase an adult ticket at that age they would

She had a half fare card - she used this card on this very train on many occasions, but never traveling by herself beyond Todmorden. The card lets you be 16 AND pay child fare.
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Anyway....
This incident happened 17th Feb - I'm looking at fares to compare child/adult fares. Have fares/fare structures changed since then? It seems to be showing almost £20 for what was less than £10.
Outbound 11.15 HBD - Return 15.45 ish MCR
Trying also to look at the split fare HBD to LTL and LTL to MCR... it was a Tuesday

 

[RailAleFan]

Apologies all - my hypothetical regarding an U16 becoming so used to asking for a child ticket that it accidentally continues beyond their 16th birthday was generic and not related specifically to the detail of this thread.

 

[najaB]

This incident happened 17th Feb - I'm looking at fares to compare child/adult fares. Have fares/fare structures changed since then? It seems to be showing almost £20 for what was less than £10.

Is this the ticket you are looking for?

 

[DaleCooper]

She had a half fare card - she used this card on this very train on many occasions, but never traveling by herself beyond Todmorden. The card lets you be 16 AND pay child fare.

I was speaking in general terms in response to RailAleFan it was not meant to refer to your daughter, sorry if it appeared that way.

 

[Windmill10]

I was speaking in general terms in response to RailAleFan it was not meant to refer to your daughter, sorry if it appeared that way.

no problem at all, I seem to be in permanent 'defend your child' mode
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Is this the ticket you are looking for?

yes. thank you.

 

[DaleCooper]

no problem at all, I seem to be in permanent 'defend your child' mode.

As you should be.