Who gets the Fixed penalty fare money

[Lddex]

Hello all. Just a query.

I travel from a station into Piccadilly where I have choice of three TOCs. Correct me if I am wrong with my first assumption but is the fare spilt between the three TOCs, as there is no way they know which service I would use for my return leg...

If this is so then this brings me on to my query. As I was travelling back today there were RP offices at Piccadilly but also at my local station. Several people did not have tickets so I was wondering if they got charged the fixed penalty fare then does that get spilt between all TOCs or just the one they have alighted? As there was a unformed employee from X-country, Virgin Station staff were doing the checking and then three guys who looked like they were in Northern Rail uniform. As Normally it is Northern Rail, as I see them at Deansgate and Oxford Rd, but do they keep all the money, or take a percentage for costs if its another TOC like East Midlands or TPE, or are the RP independent company.

I must say I was quite surprised at how many people failed to have a ticket and wondered how they had got past the people at Piccadilly as they were manning most of the platforms and doors so didn't really have an excuse.

 

[mikeg]

Unless there is a specific arrangement in place, I would be very surprised if Northern Rail didn't keep all of the money in the case of a Northern Rail proposed prosecution. It is accepted that one company can do the prosecuting, even where there are multiple train operating companies. Since the 'fixed penalty' is in effect an out-of-court settlement it is a matter between the prosecutor and the accused.

If TPE or EMT want to have a go, let them place their RPIs at the station and let them send out the prosecution letters/do the negotiating.

 

[reb0118]

It is my belief that there are two elements to any charge made to passengers who are found without valid tickets by railway companies viz:-

1) An administrative (or similar) penalty which is retained by the issuing company, and

2) The actual fare due which will be shared as normal with any appropriate TOC.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Being pedantic, none of CrossCountry, Northern, TransPennine Express and Virgin operate a Penalty Fares scheme.

Northern offer a pseudo-Penalty Fare scheme in that they'll sometimes issue a "Failure to Pay" Notice, giving you the option of paying £80 (plus the fare due IIRC) to keep it out of Court, and they retain the revenue from those.

The others would generally issue an Unpaid Fares Notice where a TOC that has a Penalty Fares scheme in place would issue a PF, but otherwise they'd submit a report with a view to prosecution. It may be possible to negotiate a settlement in such cases, but it'd likely cost you more than Northern's £80. Again, any revenue this raises goes to the TOC, whereas if they take you to Court, all they get back is the fare due and costs (where appropriate). Any fine goes to HM Courts and Tribunals Service.

 

[gray1404]

I know there are arrangements for one TOC issuing a Penalty Fare on behalf of another, but would you be within your rights to refuse to deal with a TOC other then the one you traveled with in the event of a fare dispute - i.e. in the absence of a Penalty Fare system. I'd like great issue to getting off say a VT or XC without a ticket and ending up with one of Northern's £80 made up fines or court action from them, when I had not actually traveled on their service.

I am also very surprised to hear of Virgin staff checking tickets. I have never come across any Virgin Trains revenue protection officers anywhere on their network (just ticket checks on their trains from the guard and also platform staff checking tickets at London Euston as Liverpool Lime Street).

 

[Merseysider]

I'd like great issue to getting off say a VT or XC without a ticket and ending up with one of Northern's £80 made up fines or court action from them, when I had not actually traveled on their service.

Virgin don't allow Northern's staff/subcontracted STM Security staff to go anywhere near their trains at Manchester Piccadilly - presumably it'd have something to do with the passengers not arriving awesome if they had to queue to leave the platform.

Virgin do summon their own staff to do some checking for a few days every few months, in a joint operation with other tocs (ATW et al who serve Picc).

Last time this happened, there was a barrage of people caught out, presumably from boarding at unguarded/barriered stations who thought they could walk straight out like they normally do.

 

[TEW]

I went to Manchester on Monday and Virgin revenue staff were checking tickets both on arrival and before departure at Piccadilly. Given I arrived around 1145 and returned on the 2015 it was clearly quite a big blockade. It did lead to quite a queue coming upon arrival though as everyone had to have there ticket checked by only a handful of staff.

 

[Starmill]

This week has been Virgin's big 'Revenue Week' at Manchester Piccadilly. Some ATW RPIs (whom I have never seen at Manchester before) were also there one day. Usually Virgin and CrossCountry spend a week there together about twice a year catching everyone who probably commutes for free most days from Stockport, Macclesfield, Wilmslow, Stoke on Trent and Crewe - none of which have barriers and it's very difficult for the one TM on the train to check tickets from those stations for going into Manchester - which is of course unbarriered.

 

[Lddex]

I am also very surprised to hear of Virgin staff checking tickets. I have never come across any Virgin Trains revenue protection officers anywhere on their network (just ticket checks on their trains from the guard and also platform staff checking tickets at London Euston as Liverpool Lime Street).

The station is ran by Virgin, so maybe this is the reason. They were wearing the red coats and uniform of the other Virgin station staff so I'm only assuming.

Virgin don't allow Northern's staff/subcontracted STM Security staff to go anywhere near their trains at Manchester Piccadilly - presumably it'd have something to do with the passengers not arriving awesome if they had to queue to leave the platform.

.

This is what I heard, and this why I thought Virgin didn't want barrier/Ticket gates at Piccadilly

In relation to Ticket gates/Barriers who would man them or issue the fines or pay notices when they do go live

 

[CC 72100]

This week has been Virgin's big 'Revenue Week' at Manchester Piccadilly. Some ATW RPIs (whom I have never seen at Manchester before) were also there one day. Usually Virgin and CrossCountry spend a week there together about twice a year catching everyone who probably commutes for free most days from Stockport, Macclesfield, Wilmslow, Stoke on Trent and Crewe - none of which have barriers and it's very difficult for the one TM on the train to check tickets from those stations for going into Manchester - which is of course unbarriered.

Barriers are planned for a few of the above though aren't they? Not before time - it screams out as fare evasion hotspot with long, busy trains and under-30 minutes journey times.

Hopefully the Virgin stations will be given a tidy up as well.... the trains may let you 'arrive awesome' but the stations are more like 'wait woefully'.

 

[Fare-Cop]

.. would you be within your rights to refuse to deal with a TOC other then the one you traveled with in the event of a fare dispute

No, where these ticket checking operations are staged at stations where several TOCs may have services calling, the agreements between ATOC members allow for any authorised revenue staff to deal with such matters.

 

[northwichcat]

Virgin don't allow Northern's staff/subcontracted STM Security staff to go anywhere near their trains at Manchester Piccadilly - presumably it'd have something to do with the passengers not arriving awesome if they had to queue to leave the platform.

Officially Northern RPIs at Piccadilly don't have permission to check non-Northern passengers. However, Virgin are the only TOC who actively prevent Northern RPIs stopping their passengers, the other TOCs seem to have the attitude of "they're saving us a job by doing it." I can't think it's to do with the reason you describe though given Virgin passengers are stopped by RPIs at Euston.

I wonder what happen if ATW or EMT told their passengers they could walk past RPIs without showing a ticket, like Grand Central tell their passengers.

 

[Lddex]

Officially Northern RPIs at Piccadilly don't have permission to check non-Northern passengers.

Is this correct or true??? As I know at Picc they only man the platforms that Northern use (but these are sometimes shared by TPE or Arrivia, but they are always guarding Platform 13 and 14.

So if I was catching TPE or EMT from Platform 13, I could tell the Northern RPIs to to do one! So to speak?

Northern must be making a mint from other TOCs.

 

[Merseysider]

Officially Northern RPIs at Piccadilly don't have permission to check non-Northern passengers. However, Virgin are the only TOC who actively prevent Northern RPIs stopping their passengers, the other TOCs seem to have the attitude of "they're saving us a job by doing it." I can't think it's to do with the reason you describe though given Virgin passengers are stopped by RPIs at Euston.

I wonder what happen if ATW or EMT told their passengers they could walk past RPIs without showing a ticket, like Grand Central tell their passengers.

If I was being cynical, Virgin allowing passengers to board without being checked means they can sting someone for £160 every now and then, if it's Man to Stockport and then fast from Wilmslow. If there was a manned barrier these people would be turned away.

(I doubt this is the real reason)

If ATW or EMT said that, it would lead to chaos - anyone for P13/14 could just say they were travelling to Norwich or Llandudno and instead board a TPE or Northern

 

[sheff1]

Officially Northern RPIs at Piccadilly don't have permission to check non-Northern passengers. However, Virgin are the only TOC who actively prevent Northern RPIs stopping their passengers, the other TOCs seem to have the attitude of "they're saving us a job by doing it."

I have noticed that when a TPE from Sheffield arrives at a low numbered platform any 'Northern' checkers present usually stand back and let everyone through unhindered. When the TPE arrives at Platform 12 there are no checkers. With arrivals at P 10/11, though, they do check - presumably because alighters from TPE are mixed in with passengers coming from P 13/14.

 

[221129]

Is this correct or true??? As I know at Picc they only man the platforms that Northern use (but these are sometimes shared by TPE or Arrivia, but they are always guarding Platform 13 and 14.

So if I was catching TPE or EMT from Platform 13, I could tell the Northern RPIs to to do one! So to speak?

Northern must be making a mint from other TOCs.

No. You couldn't.

 

[snail]

I have never come across any Virgin Trains revenue protection officers anywhere on their network.

You should get out more. I've come across VT checks at Preston, Wigan NW and Lancaster, every couple of months I'd say. Northern are more likely at Preston but they do the other stations as well.

 

[Lddex]

No. You couldn't.

Ha ha.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

You should get out more. I've come across VT checks at Preston, Wigan NW and Lancaster, every couple of months I'd say. Northern are more likely at Preston but they do the other stations as well.

Also seen on occasion at Wolverhampton and Stafford.

 

[island]

You should get out more. I've come across VT checks at Preston, Wigan NW and Lancaster, every couple of months I'd say. Northern are more likely at Preston but they do the other stations as well.

I've also seen them out in force at Wigan NW. There was a footy match vs Crystal Palace on, which is probably why.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The station is ran by Virgin, so maybe this is the reason. They were wearing the red coats and uniform of the other Virgin station staff so I'm only assuming.

Manchester Piccadilly is not run by Virgin. It is a Network Rail managed station.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/managed-stations/

 

[Lddex]

Manchester Piccadilly is not run by Virgin. It is a Network Rail managed station.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/managed-stations/

I was talking about my local station (Macclesfield) which is a Virgin managed station.