Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[northwichcat]

Northern appears to have been given derogations of the 2020 deadline for TSI-PRM compliance, for its Class 150 and 156 units:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/410413/angel_class_156_4_March_2015.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/410411/angel_class_150_4_March_2015.pdf

I assume this is because the degree of non-compliance in the areas quoted is minimal.
I've no idea if this means no work at all is necessary.

I don't think it does. It doesn't mention not requiring to fit internal PIS or say that keeping non-accessible non-retention toilets is acceptable.

From what I can make out from that they've been given the following exemptions:
1. No requirement to fit external side destination display
2. No requirement to reverse the order of the door control buttons or move them on the ex-ATN/ex-LM 150s
3. No requirement to change how long the door controls stay illuminated for.
4. No requirement to change the step on the 156s
5. No requirement to change the volume of announcements.
6. No requirement to move the handrails near the doors on the 150s/156s

Possibly one or two others there as well. I'm not sure what 'signage' means, for instance.

 

[WatcherZero]

Essentially the PRM-TSI kick in if the relevant component is refreshed, so as the Franchise ITT requires full refurb of all units then some of these components would have to become compliant at the same time.

 

[edwin_m]

Is this just a "tidying up" exercise to formalise previous work which identified a number of "marginal" non-compliances that weren't worth dealing with?

 

[lejog]

Not having time to read 28 pages of previous postings, apologies if I am repeating what others might have said but ...

Is the specification of a number of Leeds - Hebden Bridge services continuing to Blackpool a device to give bidders the option of diverting the existing Blackpool service via Brighouse, thus threatening to cut Bradford/Halifax - Preston/Blackpool links?

Not really. The Northern ITT states that "The maximum frequency of service Bidders may plan to operate on this route is 1tph Leeds-Brighouse (for the Calder Valley and Manchester Victoria), calling at Cottingley, Morley, Dewsbury and Mirfield."

While I suppose bidders could make a case for sending this service to Blackpool rather than Manchester, I can't see any bidder forgoing revenue by omitting Bradford and Halifax. Also, in order to meet the requirement for the number of Leeds-Bradford-Halifax services, they would then have to provide an extra strengthening service there.

Likewise earlier in the thread someone took the requirements for a Bradford to Man Airport service and an extra Bradford to Manchester service literally to mean that services would terminate at Bradford. There's no requirement to run these services from Leeds, which has plenty of existing TPE services to Manchester and the Airport, but its the most likely solution. There's also a requirement to provide the same number of services from Bradford to Leeds as Halifax to Bradford. Terminating services at Bradford and making through passengers change is unlikely to enhance revenue, even if it meets the requirements.

 

[edwin_m]

Likewise earlier in the thread someone took the requirements for a Bradford to Man Airport service and an extra Bradford to Manchester service literally to mean that services would terminate at Bradford. There's no requirement to run these services from Leeds, which has plenty of existing TPE services to Manchester and the Airport, but its the most likely solution. There's also a requirement to provide the same number of services from Bradford to Leeds as Halifax to Bradford. Terminating services at Bradford and making through passengers change is unlikely to enhance revenue, even if it meets the requirements.

I agree generally, but I think it said somewhere that the through service from Chester to the Calder Valley had to continue to Leeds.

Personally I've always thought that terminating the Manchester trains at Bradford would be a good idea, with an overlapping service between Leeds and Halifax or Hebden Bridge using units more suited to carrying larger numbers for shorter distances.

 

[CalderRail]

Apologies if this has already been said, but.

Am I correct in thinking that the requirement for the 120 new carriages that "They must
be designed with future demand... in mind" more or less require IPEMU, as additional DMUs simply won't have the demand over the expected lifespan of a multiple unit?

 

[northwichcat]

Apologies if this has already been said, but.

Am I correct in thinking that the requirement for the 120 new carriages that "They must
be designed with future demand... in mind" more or less require IPEMU, as additional DMUs simply won't have the demand over the expected lifespan of a multiple unit?

I think it's more a case of saying don't order trains for a route which may be electrified which can't be cascaded to a route unlikely to be electrified without causing issues.

It's already been explained why IPEMU isn't advanced enough to work for Northern with the range it can run on non-electrified lines and the amount of recharging time under the wires required.

 

[Emyr]

"Don't order 120 carriages of a 26m length because there's no way you'll get funding to extend the platforms on lines that won't immediately get them"

 

[lejog]

I agree generally, but I think it said somewhere that the through service from Chester to the Calder Valley had to continue to Leeds.

Indeed. That's why I didn't mention the Chester service. There was a specific requirement in the Consultation Response for a Calder Valley service to replace the direct Warrington to Leeds TPE train so the requirement in the service definition is to run Leeds to Bradford to Warrington BQ. And there are also requirements to run Leeds/Dewsbury to Brighouse and Leeds to Blackpool services, but not extra Manchester or Manchester Airport services from Leeds, which could (if the bidder desires) start at Bradford.

The difference between requirements and solutions is pretty trivial in this case, but its good practice not to impose solutions on bidders.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"Don't order 120 carriages of a 26m length because there's no way you'll get funding to extend the platforms on lines that won't immediately get them"

And here I was thinking that I had cornered the market of cynicism...

 

[Philip]

Surprised there aren't any Preston-Hazel Grove services currently continuing onto Sheffield. If they run fast 2-hourly from Hazel Grove in the hours when the stopper isn't running then (looking from a distance) it seems workable sticking to the current arrival/departure times from Hazel Grove. The :36 from Hazel Grove to Preston is 15 minutes ahead of the TPE and likewise with the :45 arrival from Preston being about 15 minutes ahead of the EMT train.

 

[WatcherZero]

TfGM Briefing

Calder Valley
* Additional 1tph between Manchester and Rochdale, extended semi-fast to Manchester Airport and Bradford in 2019 when infrastructure enhancements complete and additional rolling stock available 
* 2tph at Moston peak and inter-peak (Mondays to Saturdays) from 2019
* 3tph at Rochdale in the evenings (Mondays to Saturdays)
* New service (commencing May 2015) between Manchester and Blackburn via Burnley retained

Stalybridge / Huddersfield
* Stalybridge-Ashton-Victoria service 2tph most of the day (Mondays to Saturdays) and continues to Salford Central and Salford Crescent
* Greenfield and Mosley primarily served hourly by Transpennine services - providing trains to both Manchester and Leeds; with quicker journey times. Additional peak trains to/from Manchester Piccadilly provided by Northern
* 6tph between Manchester and Leeds most of the day (Mondays to Saturdays) – mix of express and slower trains

Hadfield / Glossop
* Additional trains at Ashburys

Marple via Hyde Loop and via Bredbury
* 2tph at New Mills on Saturdays, 1tph on Sundays
* 2tph via Bredbury on Sundays

Stockport
* Stockport, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme linked to Salford Crescent and Bolton 2tph in 2019 when infrastructure enhancements complete 
* Additional trains between Manchester and Hazel Grove all day - Mondays to Saturdays 3tph inter-peak from 2017, 4tph peak and interpeak from 2019 when infrastructure enhancements complete, 2tph evenings from 2019 and Sundays from 2017
* 2tph between Manchester and New Mills Newtown inter-peak (Mondays to Saturdays); with quicker journey times to Buxton
* 2tph between Manchester and Macclesfield inter-peak (Mondays to Saturdays); with quicker journey times
* 1tph between Manchester and Macclesfield/Stoke on Sundays

Airport / Styal
* First train departs Manchester Airport to Manchester 0445(daily), last train departs 0115(M-Sa) 0045(Su)
* First train departs Manchester Piccadilly to Airport 0400(M-F) 0345(Sa-Su), last train departs 0030(daily)
 For most of day:
# 9tph to Manchester from 2017, 10tph from 2019
# 2tph to Preston, Huddersfield, Leeds, York
# 1tph to Liverpool, Bolton (with extras), Lancaster (with extras), Carlisle, Scotland, Rochdale (2019), Halifax (2019), Bradford (2019), Sheffield, Cleethorpes
# Less frequent services to Barrow (8 trains per day), Windermere (2 trains per day)
* Local stations served by Northern only, 2tph evenings (Mondays to Saturdays)
* 3tph at East Didsbury and Heald Green peak and inter-peak (Mondays to Saturdays), 2tph Sundays; with quicker journey times

Altrincham / Knutsford
* All trains to/from Manchester
* Additional trains between Manchester and Northwich peak and interpeak (Mondays to Saturdays); with quicker journey times
* Revised peak service to better meet needs of scholars
* 1tph Sundays

Liverpool and Chester via Newton-le-Willows and Warrington
* Both TransPennine journeys via Newton - 1tph to stop at each of St Helens Junction and Newton-le-Willows
* Northern replace diverted journey via Warrington and maintain same number of trains via Newton
* New fast service (Mondays to Saturdays) from Chester (Ellesmere Port Mondays to Fridays peaks) and Warrington Bank Quay to Manchester Victoria - linked with Calder Valley service to Leeds
* Therefore additional 2tph with less crowding on both routes
* Additional peak trains at Eccles
* 2tph Irlam and Urmston evenings Mondays to Saturdays

Atherton and Wigan
* 6tph between Wigan and Manchester inter-peak (Mondays to Saturdays); with quicker average journey time
* Additional trains at Daisy Hill, Atherton and Walkden – 4tph inter-peak (Mondays to Saturdays), 2tph Sundays and evenings; with quicker journey times
* Other stations 1tph all day Sundays
* Additional peak trains at Ince and Moorside
* Kirkby line revised to better meet needs of scholars
* 2tph at Gathurst inter-peak (Mondays to Saturdays)
* Sunday service at Bryn

Bolton / Preston / Blackburn
* 1tph evenings at Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate
* Preston-Bolton service revised to better distribute passengers between trains and reduce overcrowding
* 2tph between Bolton and Blackburn peak, inter-peak and early evening (Mondays to Saturdays)
* More even distribution of trains between Salford Crescent / Manchester Victoria and Manchester Oxford Road / Manchester Piccadilly from 2019, when infrastructure enhancements complete
* Most trains between Manchester and Scotland via Bolton


Minimum ITT route timetable in high peak

Bolton 2014/2019
Number of Services 9/9
Average load factor 115/99
Number of services over capacity 4/3

Calder Valley 2014/2019
Number of Services 4/5
Average load factor 94/79
Number of services over capacity 2/0

Stalybridge 2014/2019
Number of Services 7/9
Average load factor 88/63
Number of services over capacity 2/0

Hadfield 2014/2019
Number of Services 3/3
Average load factor 50/63
Number of services over capacity 0/0

Marple via Hyde 2014/2019
Number of Services 2/2
Average load factor 67/67
Number of services over capacity 0/0

Marple via Bredbury 2014/2019
Number of Services 4/4
Average load factor 70/79
Number of services over capacity 0/0

Stockport 2014/2019
Number of Services 11/11
Average load factor 79/81
Number of services over capacity 2/1

Styal 2014/2019
Number of Services 9/10
Average load factor 44/41
Number of services over capacity 0/0

Northwich 2014/2019
Number of Services 1/2
Average load factor 78/65
Number of services over capacity 0/0

CLC 2014/2019
Number of Services 4/4
Average load factor 82/68
Number of services over capacity 1/0

Chat Moss 2014/2019
Number of Services 5/7
Average load factor 98/80
Number of services over capacity 2/0

Atherton 2014/2019
Number of Services 4/4
Average load factor 79/84
Number of services over capacity 0/0

Remember also requirement to end overcrowding by Dec 2018 on TPE and Dec 2019 on Northern.

 

[northwichcat]

I take it 'services over capacity' only includes arrivals in Manchester in the weekday morning peak and departures from Manchester in the weekday evening peak. Otherwise the '0' number for some lines would be incorrect.

 

[thealexweb]

Bolton 2014/2019
Number of Services 9/9
Average load factor 115/99
Number of services over capacity 4/3

So this confirms that Bolton is the busiest corridor inside TfGM's jurisdiction? Why does the number of peak time services through Bolton not increase at all over the five years when some of the quieter lines see rises?

 

[Deerfold]

Bolton 2014/2019
Number of Services 9/9
Average load factor 115/99
Number of services over capacity 4/3

So this confirms that Bolton is the busiest corridor inside TfGM's jurisdiction? Why does the number of peak time services through Bolton not increase at all over the five years when some of the quieter lines see rises?

If there's already 9 services in the high peak, I suspect there's not many spare paths. Quieter lines have the space to add more services.

 

[thealexweb]

If there's already 9 services in the high peak, I suspect there's not many spare paths. Quieter lines have the space to add more services.

If that is the case it will be very irritating to see the TPE ex-Scotland peak time services using up paths when they slow to 10mph through Bolton's sharp corner only to pass straight though.

 

[Deerfold]

If that is the case it will be very irritating to see the TPE ex-Scotland peak time services using up paths when they slow to 10mph through Bolton's sharp corner only to pass straight though.

True.

 

[Grinner]

If that is the case it will be very irritating to see the TPE ex-Scotland peak time services using up paths when they slow to 10mph through Bolton's sharp corner only to pass straight though.

It does say "most" Scottish services via Bolton, not all. So Scottish services not due to stop at Bolton could run via Wigan, and free up space for a Manc-Preston stopper in the peak? Although if that were the plan then presumably an increase in service would be listed, and it is isn't.

Sorry, was kind of thinking out load there.

 

[175001]

If that is the case it will be very irritating to see the TPE ex-Scotland peak time services using up paths when they slow to 10mph through Bolton's sharp corner only to pass straight though.

Its 20mph actually

 

[thealexweb]

It does say "most" Scottish services via Bolton, not all. So Scottish services not due to stop at Bolton could run via Wigan, and free up space for a Manc-Preston stopper in the peak? Although if that were the plan then presumably an increase in service would be listed, and it is isn't.

Sorry, was kind of thinking out load there.

In the Transpennine ITT it states that no TPE North West services may run via the chat moss.

 

[Grinner]

In the Transpennine ITT it states that no TPE North West services may run via the chat moss.

Fair enough, any idea on what the thinking behind that would be?

 

[WatcherZero]

No it doesn't, it says paths must be provided for 1tph Manchester Airport-Scotland to call at Bolton except those running into Manchester in the morning peak and those leaving Manchester in the evening peak will not be required to call at Bolton. Bolton may also be designated a pick up only station according to accompanying service specification.

 

[northwichcat]

Bolton 2014/2019
Number of Services 9/9
Average load factor 115/99
Number of services over capacity 4/3

So this confirms that Bolton is the busiest corridor inside TfGM's jurisdiction? Why does the number of peak time services through Bolton not increase at all over the five years when some of the quieter lines see rises?

You need to treat these types of figures with caution for two reasons:

1. It likely only counts morning peak arrivals in to Manchester and evening peak departures from Manchester. If it doesn't the figures then the figures are wrong as some 'overcapacity' services have been excluded.

2. A 20 minute standing rule applies. Remember the DfT most overcrowded trains list included a Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough service which didn't call at Stalybridge or Dewsbury? That means every standard class passenger without a seat is classed as a passenger in excess of the train's capacity. However, if the train called at Stalybridge and Dewsbury and had the same total number of passengers it would be classed as less crowded because there's less than 20 minutes between stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the Transpennine ITT it states that no TPE North West services may run via the chat moss.

Just to be clear here. They'll be regular Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Manchester Airport to Barrow services as well as occasional Manchester Airport to Windermere services operated as regional express services by the next Northern franchisee.

Also they'll be a Northern express shuttle between Manchester and Wigan and there may be Liverpool-Scotland TPE services which portion work with Manchester services north of Preston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If that is the case it will be very irritating to see the TPE ex-Scotland peak time services using up paths when they slow to 10mph through Bolton's sharp corner only to pass straight though.

Is there a reason why they can't have a 'set down' only restriction on the morning southbound services and a 'pick up' only restriction on the evening northbound services, so that Bolton passengers can still use them to get to and from Preston and beyond, even if they can't use them as commuter services to/from Manchester.

 

[edwin_m]

2. A 20 minute standing rule applies. Remember the DfT most overcrowded trains list included a Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough service which didn't call at Stalybridge or Dewsbury? That means every standard class passenger without a seat is classed as a passenger in excess of the train's capacity. However, if the train called at Stalybridge and Dewsbury and had the same total number of passengers it would be classed as less crowded because there's less than 20 minutes between stations.

Surely that only applies if (in the case of a morning Manchester to Leeds) nobody has to stand before Dewsbury, as nearly everyone is going into Leeds and anyone having to stand from Huddersfield would be over 20min? So even if the total number of people on the train at Leeds is the same, some of them have travelled less far than if it had fewer stops, and genuinely nobody has had to stand for more than 20min.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely that only applies if (in the case of a morning Manchester to Leeds) nobody has to stand before Dewsbury, as nearly everyone is going into Leeds and anyone having to stand from Huddersfield would be over 20min? So even if the total number of people on the train at Leeds is the same, some of them have travelled less far than if it had fewer stops, and genuinely nobody has had to stand for more than 20min.

Unfortunately, I don't think passenger counts are that detailed. They just count the number on arrival in the major city (Leeds in this case) in the morning peak. Whenever passenger count data is used in consultations there are almost always responses where people say they think they are inaccurate due to x, y and z which the passenger counts didn't allow for.

 

[CdBrux]

So this confirms that Bolton is the busiest corridor inside TfGM's jurisdiction? Why does the number of peak time services through Bolton not increase at all over the five years when some of the quieter lines see rises?

Won't the electric trains have a higher capacity and some of the DMU's get lengthened by the units cascaded as a result of electrification?

 

[Deerfold]

Won't the electric trains have a higher capacity and some of the DMU's get lengthened by the units cascaded as a result of electrification?

Which is presumably why the expected load factor will drop despite there being no additional services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, that's reflected in the crowding figure falling despite predicted growth in passengers over the 5 years. Some leeway is also given for more even timings and faster alternate services to redistribute from the most crowded services onto other less crowded services.

 

[northwichcat]

Won't the electric trains have a higher capacity and some of the DMU's get lengthened by the units cascaded as a result of electrification?

Some services yes, other services maybe not.

The Bolton corridor services which will switch are currently mainly 2 car Sprinters, 4 car Sprinters and 3 car 185s, with a small number of Pacer workings and 6 car 185s.

A 4 car 319 is the same length as a 4 car 150.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which is presumably why the expected load factor will drop despite there being no additional services.

Won't there be more services off-peak, given they'll be Scottish services via Bolton and Barrow services will become more regular?

 

[87015]

Some services yes, other services maybe not.

The Bolton corridor services which will switch are currently mainly 2 car Sprinters, 4 car Sprinters and 3 car 185s, with a small number of Pacer workings and 6 car 185s.

A 4 car 319 is the same length as a 4 car 150.

Mainly less than 4 cars sprinters. Looking at today Northern only operate 4x150/156 on all of two morning peak services and three in the evening - a 319 will be an increase on the vast majority of services. No services are 4x156.