Scottish force to police railways

[Greenback]

As I understand it, the creation of Police Scotland is an attempt to bring consistency and sort out some of the disarray, as well as the obvious financial and ideological reasons being presented here.

I think that some of the reasons you've given for opposing this in England and Wales are sensible, but if there's one police service in Scotland the difficulties in dealing with cable theft via several local forces would not be an issue.

 

[Busaholic]

One wonders why the Inverness BTP team didn't change the film?

And why it required TWO officers to drive all the way from Edinburgh - it's lucky there wasn't a lightbulb in there somewhere, or back-up may have been required.

 

[martynbristow]

As I understand it, the creation of Police Scotland is an attempt to bring consistency and sort out some of the disarray, as well as the obvious financial and ideological reasons being presented here.

I think that some of the reasons you've given for opposing this in England and Wales are sensible, but if there's one police service in Scotland the difficulties in dealing with cable theft via several local forces would not be an issue.

North West Police etc got axed along time ago, but they did want it

 

[edwin_m]

how long before the police forces in other busy conurbations like London , Manchester ,Mersyside or the Leeds city region will also want control over policing the transport network in these areas .

This already applies to light rail networks. Some opt for BTP and some for the local force, but please don't ask me which is which!

 

[kevin5025]

Don't forget the Fire Service...

yes! This is just our nationalist SNP government wanting more power and control. And maybe the don't like the name of this force either (they are that petty). The BTP in Scotland work closely with Police Scotland, so they already have the larger pool of officers, but retain the specialist knowledge. Also, their force is dedicated to the railways. It won't be long before there are no police decided to the rail system.
We rapidly see a very authoritarian form of government north of the border who centralise everything.

 

[St Rollox]

yes! This is just our nationalist SNP government wanting more power and control. And maybe the don't like the name of this force either (they are that petty). The BTP in Scotland work closely with Police Scotland, so they already have the larger pool of officers, but retain the specialist knowledge. Also, their force is dedicated to the railways. It won't be long before there are no police decided to the rail system.
We rapidly see a very authoritarian form of government north of the border who centralise everything.

What name change?
They will no longer exist as BTP when Westminster hands it over.
Only a unionist could be petty about a name of an organization that will cease to exist.
Blame the Tory/LibDems if your so annoyed.

 

[underbank]

Won't the biggest savings be in infrastructure and hierarchy?

I can see potentially huge savings in sharing premises & admin, bulk buying of equipment & vehicles, and cutting out the higher tiers of management, and still keep a dedicated force of officers to deal with railway incidents. Surely the only front line trained staff are the constables and sergeants, so the supervision from inspectors, superintendents, etc., can be merged into the normal force, as can the administrative functions.

I think the traffic and firearms units of other forces illustrate how you can have a specialist independent unit which is integral to the overall force. Take traffic policing, a specialist role which is part of presumably every county force - they don't send the ordinary PC Plod to motorway accidents do they?

 

[Greenback]

Won't the biggest savings be in infrastructure and hierarchy?

I can see potentially huge savings in sharing premises & admin, bulk buying of equipment & vehicles, and cutting out the higher tiers of management, and still keep a dedicated force of officers to deal with railway incidents. Surely the only front line trained staff are the constables and sergeants, so the supervision from inspectors, superintendents, etc., can be merged into the normal force, as can the administrative functions.

I think the traffic and firearms units of other forces illustrate how you can have a specialist independent unit which is integral to the overall force. Take traffic policing, a specialist role which is part of presumably every county force - they don't send the ordinary PC Plod to motorway accidents do they?

I tend to agree with you. I do think that there is a real fear that railway knowledge will be vulnerable and not given the priority it deserves within a unified service, and that this understandable fear needs to be addressed.

 

[najaB]

Won't the biggest savings be in infrastructure and hierarchy?

Yes, and no. As it stands at present, BTP in Scotland is part of a UK-wide force with costs, admin, etc. shared across the UK. After this move, they will be part of a Scotland-wide force, with costs, admin, etc. shared across all of Scotland.

So many of the costs will probably be the same, just paid for out of the Scottish Government's pocket, rather than the TOC's pocket. So this move may end up increasing the direct cost to the taxpayer more, rather than reducing it.

 

[underbank]

I tend to agree with you. I do think that there is a real fear that railway knowledge will be vulnerable and not given the priority it deserves within a unified service, and that this understandable fear needs to be addressed.

I think the "normal" PCs would need to be reminded that they need to get the "transport" section called out to railway related incidents and just stand back pending their arrival. Surely they do this now anyway, so nothing changes.

When I was in the police, we had several local stations in our patch and it was drummed into us in basic training never to go outside public access areas of the railway, so the station/platforms were fine, but that it was a disciplinary matter if we went onto the tracks or climbed over/through a lineside fence whatever the reason. It's well known that's why criminals or yobs being chased would go onto restricted railway property because they knew the PC's chasing them would have to hold back!

Don't see it a problem really. We always held back when firearms were suspected and were always very cautious at RTAs just to preserve the scene pending the arrival of the firearms or traffic units.

 

[martynbristow]

Won't the biggest savings be in infrastructure and hierarchy?

I can see potentially huge savings in sharing premises & admin, bulk buying of equipment & vehicles, and cutting out the higher tiers of management, and still keep a dedicated force of officers to deal with railway incidents. Surely the only front line trained staff are the constables and sergeants, so the supervision from inspectors, superintendents, etc., can be merged into the normal force, as can the administrative functions.

I think the traffic and firearms units of other forces illustrate how you can have a specialist independent unit which is integral to the overall force. Take traffic policing, a specialist role which is part of presumably every county force - they don't send the ordinary PC Plod to motorway accidents do they?

Central Motorway Policing Group deal with the major motorways and the highways agency assist police elsewhere with motorway incidents.
I think there needs to be an integration between BTP and local police but keeping them separate.
BTP have different vehicles for good reason, the standard Hyundai won't do very well going onto rough ground, and won't fit the gear BTP use.

Plus if they get integrated who pays for what

 

[kevin5025]

What name change?
They will no longer exist as BTP when Westminster hands it over.
Only a unionist could be petty about a name of an organization that will cease to exist.
Blame the Tory/LibDems if your so annoyed.

There's no name change :roll:. I'll spell it out 'British' Transport Police. I am saying the SNP probably want to get rid of it because they don't like the name. I wouldn't be suprised if they were that petty.

"Only a unionist could be petty about a name of an organization that will cease to exist." Yes, silly me, nationalists would never be petty about anything. And they always understand the debate too.

 

[Antman]

Certainly in my experience BTP officers have an excellent knowledge of the railway and are able to give passengers advice when there is no staff about.

On the other hand I heard about Kent police officers racing to Maidstone East after a wanted person was seen boarding a train at Lenham, unfortunatly they got their platforms wrong and whilst they were busy scouring the passengers on a train from London the train from Lenham pulled in on the other side and he got away...................oh well!!

 

[edwin_m]

And why it required TWO officers to drive all the way from Edinburgh - it's lucky there wasn't a lightbulb in there somewhere, or back-up may have been required.

I believe it's the same reason police always patrolled in twos when I lived in Scotland many years ago - don't know if they still do but it was something to do with making sure there was a second witness to anything that happened. As someone has pointed out, certain laws are different in Scotland.

 

[najaB]

As someone has pointed out, certain laws are different in Scotland.

You're thinking of the rules around Corroboration. Basically, any piece of evidence needs to be corroborated by a second witness to be admissible. There was a move made last year to remove the requirement, but it was not successful.

 

[St Rollox]

There's no name change :roll:. I'll spell it out 'British' Transport Police. I am saying the SNP probably want to get rid of it because they don't like the name. I wouldn't be suprised if they were that petty.

"Only a unionist could be petty about a name of an organization that will cease to exist." Yes, silly me, nationalists would never be petty about anything. And they always understand the debate too.

Bit curious why the British Government handed over the north of the border "railway polis" to Edinburgh.
Or is this part of the Calman Commission thought up by New Labour?

 

[najaB]

Bit curious why the British Government handed over the north of the border "railway polis" to Edinburgh.
Or is this part of the Calman Commission thought up by New Labour?

It was part of the 'Devo-max' proposals in the Smith Commission's report - the one that was (hastily) commissioned after the No vote in the referendum.

Edit: Page number 21 of the report (link): says "The functions of the British Transport Police in Scotland will be a devolved matter".

 

[Chrism20]

Bit curious why the British Government handed over the north of the border "railway polis" to Edinburgh.
Or is this part of the Calman Commission thought up by New Labour?

It was one of the things recommended by the Smith Commission looking into further powers for Scotland.

Not sure if it was Smith who suggested it or one of the politicians (All parties were involved) though.

 

[jonnysr]

It was one of the things recommended by the Smith Commission looking into further powers for Scotland.

Not sure if it was Smith who suggested it or one of the politicians (All parties were involved) though.

Yes, the Smith commission had representation from ALL parties. So let's stop making this party political or an SNP bashing.

My 2p worth it that the same cops will be employed doing the same job, just as a part of Police Scotland instead of BTP. Nothing to get worked up about.

 

[DelayRepay]

I think the traffic and firearms units of other forces illustrate how you can have a specialist independent unit which is integral to the overall force. Take traffic policing, a specialist role which is part of presumably every county force - they don't send the ordinary PC Plod to motorway accidents do they?

But hasn't roads policing suffered significant cutbacks as a result of the pressure on police budgets? And air support has been merged into a national service, they're cutting back too.

I know Scotland is different, but my concern would be when someone is looking for an easy saving, reducing Transport Police officer numbers could be an easy win.

The funding is an interesting question - as I understand, the Rail Industry provides the bulk of the funding for BTP, and in return the Rail Industry appoints representitives to the Police Authority. If these special arrangements end, then if I was Virgin or TPE I would be ask why I was being asked to pay a special levy to receive services from Police Scotland, when supermarkets, pubs, bus companies etc do not pay such a levy.

 

[Chrism20]

Yes, the Smith commission had representation from ALL parties. So let's stop making this party political or an SNP bashing.

My 2p worth it that the same cops will be employed doing the same job, just as a part of Police Scotland instead of BTP. Nothing to get worked up about.

I wasn't bashing anyone and merely stated that I wasn't sure which side had come up with it and highlighting that all sides were involved in the decision which from what I understand from what I have read there had to be agreement by most of the parties involved with the final input from Lord Smith of Kelvin himself. Had I known exactly who suggested it I would have said regardless of who it is.

My own opinion is it makes sense and as long as the current level of service is maintained or improved upon even better. If the situation deteriorates those accountable should be held to account.

As najaB said it was bashed together which I am sure had there been more time and thought put into it we would have had a better outcome.

 

[St Rollox]

Smith Commission, what a joke.
Totally meaningless if none of it's hander over.
A Westminster government could laugh it off after the May election.
The Lord part gives it away.
What exactly does a Lord do in 2015?

 

[najaB]

Deleted
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Smith Commission, what a joke.
Totally meaningless if none of it's hander over.

Many of the powers have already been handed over, or the transfer is already in progress. Many of the key powers will be transferred by the end of this UK Parliament - e.g. Scottish control over income tax rates.

 

[cjt0131]

Hopefully backing him will also help bring about the downfall of Ms Sturgeon as well but that's not for here.

.

if as you say "but that's not for here" then why make the comment in the first place

I was never in favour of a unified Scottish police force

but why pay a chief constable the salary he gets if you don't allow him to actually make decisions----constantly dragging senior officers in front of parliament is not the way to go

If I were one of the many politicians who made some pretty nasty remarks id be rather worried and be watching my back----particularly if I lost my seat at the next election
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yes! This is just our nationalist SNP government wanting more power and control. And maybe the don't like the name of this force either (they are that petty). The BTP in Scotland work closely with Police Scotland, so they already have the larger pool of officers, but retain the specialist knowledge. Also, their force is dedicated to the railways. It won't be long before there are no police decided to the rail system.
We rapidly see a very authoritarian form of government north of the border who centralise everything.

I do not agree so much with your SNP bashing

but I do agree its very possible that we may end up with no police dedicated to the railway
there are some areas of Scotland which now have considerably less police officers on patrol since police Scotland was formed
with a new railway coming to the borders in September it seriously worries me that there will be no dedicated railway police based here---and currently the police in the borders are quite stretched now

 

[dcsprior]

But the Scottish experience of Police Scotland has in general been of a scary lack of accountability compared with the 8 regional forces that preceded it.

That's the only thing that makes sense. But Police Scotland hasn't exactly shown themselves to be the most sensible to date...

Police Scotland and Sir Stephen House should be getting no more powers until they can be trusted with the ones they hold at the moment.

Can't disagree. But there's a difference between a bad idea, and an idea where there are problems with the implementation. I think(hope) that having having a single police service for all of Scotland doesn't come in to the first category

I don't really see how operating under a unified Scottish Police Service will have much effect. As I see it, the BTP in Scotland will simply become a specialist unit that is administered alongside other specialist units. Maybe my view is naive?

Presumably it means that rather than being a part of a force which is ultimately answerable to the UK Government, it is part of a force which is ultimately answerable to the Scottish Government.

I think the real issue here is that there is no guarantee that Police Scotland will make provisions to ensure that there are dedicated officers for railway policing. Most counties with dense rail networks have their own dedicated transit police, dare I say it Holyrood thinks it's a simple case of taking over BTP's duties and absorb the officers based in Scotland and use them for other policing duties while getting a share of the BTP's budget?

But most of Scotland (by area) doesn't have a dense rail network. Pretty much everything north of the Tay is single-track.

The funding is an interesting question - as I understand, the Rail Industry provides the bulk of the funding for BTP, and in return the Rail Industry appoints representitives to the Police Authority. If these special arrangements end, then if I was Virgin or TPE I would be ask why I was being asked to pay a special levy to receive services from Police Scotland, when supermarkets, pubs, bus companies etc do not pay such a levy.

There are however other examples of the police providing a service which primarily benefits certain businesses and recouping the cost from them - for example the policing of sporting and music events.

 

[Chrism20]

if as you say "but that's not for here" then why make the comment in the first place

I was never in favour of a unified Scottish police force

but why pay a chief constable the salary he gets if you don't allow him to actually make decisions----constantly dragging senior officers in front of parliament is not the way to go

If I were one of the many politicians who made some pretty nasty remarks id be rather worried and be watching my back----particularly if I lost my seat at the next election

Yes in hindsight I probably should have deleted it, so apologies if I have caused offence.

I didn't have an issue with doing away with the previous eight forces but I think one is just too big, it probably should have been split into two and even then the cost savings would have been huge. I'm not a police officer but the differences between policing the central belt and policing the North will be different challenges altogether and the police is not a one size fits all operation as the railway clear shows. Even in the central belt there has been a lot of debate in the east of the country over the perceived lurch towards a more heavy handed approach.

I think this dragging people in front of parliament is the new craze. Margaret Hodge done a turn on the bankers down south and they all seem to be trying to go one better.

Hopefully the plans for how the BTP is going to be integrated will be made public soon although it's probably still early days. We might be surprised and it may lead to more officers getting railway specific training due to it falling into their remit. If the TOCs still have to pay they should insist on it.

 

[the sniper]

There should be no doubt that the biggest 'problem' with the BTP in Scotland is its name. It was only a matter of time before the Scottish Government called time on the awful London ran oppressive regime forced upon the Scottish people, that is the BRITISH Transport Police! :roll:

Presumably the other reason to make this change is that it'll enable the SNP Police (sic) to get their grubby hands on BTP Scotland's budget... Hopefully the TOCs won't play ball with that, though I can't see Scotrail biting the hand that feeds them.

I'll be amazed if in the medium to long term this doesn't have a detrimental impact on railway policing. If BTP Scotland operates in the same way as BTP in E&W, there's no way that a Force with bigger, wider issues will dedicate resources to the jobs that BTP do. No way can I see that there'll be a dedicated 'Railway Division CID' in the future, and 'local' Police CID would laugh at some of the jobs BTP CID deal with, but the railway get their money's worth. I can't see that as many PCs will man the main stations themselves on each shift, as city centre manning will be seen to cover the stations too... This separation will also make cross border working and arrangements more complicated than it would be under BTP, though that's obvious. Will the same specialist teams that BTP have be maintained or implemented into the Scots only Rail Division? Some of the BTP Specialist teams work on a UK basis, so will end up remaining on this side of the border with BTP. In the long term will railway fatalities be dealt with in the same specialist way as now with the same equipment and well practised process BTP successfully use?

And while I respect what Underbank says, around here, both while I was in BTP and since I've been with a TOC, I've heard of numerous incidences and near misses where Home Office Police have done crazy stuff on the Railway, it's a miracle no one has been killed. This is with the idea that they don't have to get involved in stuff that is 'on BTP'. With the Railway becoming SNPPols patch, there's inevitably going to be more incidences of non-PTS trained locals having to deal with railway jobs. I can't see any more than the bare minimum of PCs being PTS trained, it'll probably just become a legacy of the BTP once the 'Railway Division' gets wound down in the longer term.

Anyway, sad but not unpredictable news.

 

[St Rollox]

Until this Lord Smith commission few powers are handed over this is an non story.
BTP Scotland, now that will really make a difference to building a better Scotland.
A British prime minister could tell the Scots to take a hike in May.
Interesting though at the level of anti Scottishness on here.
Better Together, in your dreams.

 

[cjt0131]

Yes in hindsight I probably should have deleted it, so apologies if I have caused offence.

I didn't have an issue with doing away with the previous eight forces but I think one is just too big, it probably should have been split into two and even then the cost savings would have been huge. I'm not a police officer but the differences between policing the central belt and policing the North will be different challenges altogether and the police is not a one size fits all operation as the railway clear shows. Even in the central belt there has been a lot of debate in the east of the country over the perceived lurch towards a more heavy handed approach.

I think this dragging people in front of parliament is the new craze. Margaret Hodge done a turn on the bankers down south and they all seem to be trying to go one better.

Hopefully the plans for how the BTP is going to be integrated will be made public soon although it's probably still early days. We might be surprised and it may lead to more officers getting railway specific training due to it falling into their remit. If the TOCs still have to pay they should insist on it.

you are correct. it is early days

and I could not agree more with you that the police is not a one size fits all operation,which is why a unified force worried me and still concerns me

I have no direct experience of BTP in Scotland though have seen them in action In England

I would be very surprised to see more officers specifically trained (more than the current BTP) in railway procedure under police Scotland

it would also be interesting to find out more about BTP operations in Scotland , how much funding they get,where exactly that comes from etc etc

 

[Greenback]

My own opinion is it makes sense and as long as the current level of service is maintained or improved upon even better. If the situation deteriorates those accountable should be held to account.

I agree with this.

Presumably it means that rather than being a part of a force which is ultimately answerable to the UK Government, it is part of a force which is ultimately answerable to the Scottish Government.

Indeed. I'm not convinced it will be any different on the ground. At least initially it will be the same officers doing the same job as now. See below for my concerns as to what happens further down the line. Sorry for the terrible pun, by the way.

I would be very surprised to see more officers specifically trained (more than the current BTP) in railway procedure under police Scotland

My worry is that the Scottish police service will be tempted to cut back on its railway commitments as the years pass by. They may be tempted to cut more from the former BTP sphere of operations than in other areas, especially if there are future severe funding cuts imposed in Scotland.

Then again, the same may be true if the responsibilities north of the border remained with the BTP. There are no certainties either way, which is why I'd like to see some sort of minimum service levels enshrined in whatever legislation is required to transfer the BTP in Scotland over to the new service.