Scottish force to police railways

[6Z09]

The new "National" police service is to suffer cuts to its budget over the coming years so I cant see the BTP element being immune to cuts.
As for more officers trained in Rail Industry procedures.it would be nice, but not going to happen given current funding.
I don't expect many BTP staff are looking forward to the change either!

 

[IanXC]

The funding is an interesting question - as I understand, the Rail Industry provides the bulk of the funding for BTP, and in return the Rail Industry appoints representitives to the Police Authority. If these special arrangements end, then if I was Virgin or TPE I would be ask why I was being asked to pay a special levy to receive services from Police Scotland, when supermarkets, pubs, bus companies etc do not pay such a levy.

I've been pondering this. Do the DfT let franchises simply require them to enter into policing agreements with the BTP? If so does the DfT have any real incentive to revise franchise agreements to change that? Would those TOCs take the opportunity to claim some kind of perceived reduction in service level? If that results in increased Delay Minutes claimed against Network Rail, would NR seek to recover those?

I also wonder whether this kind of change to the BTP might precipitate a wider review of the force - perhaps the talk of airports policing might be seriously on the agenda?
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Then again, the same may be true if the responsibilities north of the border remained with the BTP. There are no certainties either way, which is why I'd like to see some sort of minimum service levels enshrined in whatever legislation is required to transfer the BTP in Scotland over to the new service.

I think the risk of cut backs must be much greater in a wider force though? To a significant extent the BTP is protected from Government cut backs, with its funding detailed in franchise agreements, and its service being seen as important to the TOCs (as funders) for the passenger benefit provided.

 

[Greenback]

It's an interesting discussion regarding funding. I don't know enough about it to go into great detail, but my understanding is that franchisees have to operate within the model imposed by privatisation, and that requires payment to the BTP for policing services.

If I was the MD of a TOC, who was paying into the BTP 'pot', I'd certainly be raising this pretty strongly with the powers that be should there b any cuts to the services I was receiving!
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I think the risk of cut backs must be much greater in a wider force though? To a significant extent the BTP is protected from Government cut backs, with its funding detailed in franchise agreements, and its service being seen as important to the TOCs (as funders) for the passenger benefit provided.

I certainly think that the perception is that there is an increased risk of PS cutting former BTP numbers and services and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reality. PS wouldn't have the same focus as the BTP, if logic has anything to do with it. The fact remains, though, that railway policing services are part funded by the industry, which could mitigate logic in this case.

I can't see any difference between a huge national force and the BTP in respect of how TOC's would react if there were cuts. If Scotrail continued to pay the same amount as previously, yet the numbers of officers trained in railway policing were cut, there would be a lot of heat on the Scottish government and the Police, and the media would have a field day.

 

[Albatross]

Manchester Metrolink used to have their own dedicated GMP Unit which Metrolink paid for (I don't know if that was entirely)

It started off ok but as time went on GMP started sticking long term sick cops, overweight useless cops and all other manner of not particularly useful cops in that unit.

They might have been paying for 20 cops (random guess) and on the books 20 cops were shown as allocated to that unit but they were getting shafted and they caught on after a couple of years.

Good luck getting a home office or in this case Scottish Police officer to turn out for a T.I

The MET have been after the underground for years by the way, I've always thought its a matter of time till they get it and when that goes I'd imagine the rest of the BTP will quickly follow.

 

[St Rollox]

Wonder what Scottish unionist party thought handing over the BTP was a great idea.
Oh btw, the Smith Commission needs to go through the house of commons and the house of lords first.
Any powers already handed over come from the the Labour Party's Calman Comission from a number of years back.
BTP, that will really make a difference to a new Scottish society, not.

 

[jonnysr]

Wonder what Scottish unionist party thought handing over the BTP was a great idea.
Oh btw, the Smith Commission needs to go through the house of commons and the house of lords first.
Any powers already handed over come from the the Labour Party's Calman Comission from a number of years back.
BTP, that will really make a difference to a new Scottish society, not.

I'm detecting a chip on ones shoulder? Same cops doing the same job, just reporting to Police Scotland instead of BTP. What's the problem?

 

[St Rollox]

I'm detecting a chip on ones shoulder? Same cops doing the same job, just reporting to Police Scotland instead of BTP. What's the problem?

You really think the SNP's input to the Smith Commission was to ask for a tiny part of BTP rather than say the money from fuel duty.
Calman Commission, Smith Commission, what's next?, the Jones Commission.
You'd think the penny would eventually drop with some people.
Some of us are trying to build a fairer more prosperous society up here.
If you want your political leaders to blank 47,000 UK millionaire residents stashing their money in Switzerland tax free batter on.
Many of us in Scotland are looking for a better way.
Like every penny of tax raised here is spent here.
Unionism great idea for Scotland is handing over the tartan branch of BTP.
Followed by, let's bash the SNP for being ungrateful.

Chip on my shoulder.

Try a mountain mate.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't really see how operating under a unified Scottish Police Service will have much effect. As I see it, the BTP in Scotland will simply become a specialist unit that is administered alongside other specialist units. Maybe my view is naive?

No, it strikes me as perfectly obvious. It's an anomaly now that we have a separate police force for railways. Specialisation isn't an argument - the police already have specialist units. Part of the BTPs problem is a lack of resourcing which will improve with increased integration into Police Scotland. There's no reason why the BTP need to exist separately - it only increases the HR/Press Office and other back office function costs.

In fact I think it's silly that in England there are county based police services (and fire brigade). There's no need for so much duplication of jobs and infrastructure (even considering that a lot of counties collaborate on specialist policing anyway).

Central Motorway Policing Group deal with the major motorways and the highways agency assist police elsewhere with motorway incidents.
I think there needs to be an integration between BTP and local police but keeping them separate.
BTP have different vehicles for good reason, the standard Hyundai won't do very well going onto rough ground, and won't fit the gear BTP use.

Plus if they get integrated who pays for what

CMPG only deal with motorway policing in the West Midlands. Highways Agency HATOs are nationwide. Needing to have different vehicles is a spurious argument. Lots of specialist divisions already have their own vehicles (where they need a particular specification). I am entirely unconvinced that the BTP have so much specialist gear (what, exactly?) and drive on so much rough ground that needing different vehicles is a reason not to merge with Police Scotland.

 

[matchmaker]

CMPG only deal with motorway policing in the West Midlands. Highways Agency HATOs are nationwide. Needing to have different vehicles is a spurious argument. Lots of specialist divisions already have their own vehicles (where they need a particular specification). I am entirely unconvinced that the BTP have so much specialist gear (what, exactly?) and drive on so much rough ground that needing different vehicles is a reason not to merge with Police Scotland.

Highways Agency isn't in Scotland.

As for specialist vehicles, Police Scotland have plenty of 4x4 vehicles ranging from Discoverys to pickups.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Highways Agency isn't in Scotland.

You'll have to forgive me, I rarely travel to the colonies

As for specialist vehicles, Police Scotland have plenty of 4x4 vehicles ranging from Discoverys to pickups.

Indeed. I'm still at a loss to understand why the BTP need very different vehicles to normal response cars. They don't need specialist vehicles like Traffic or Firearms do.

 

[cjt0131]

You'll have to forgive me, I rarely travel to the colonies


Indeed. I'm still at a loss to understand why the BTP need very different vehicles to normal response cars. They don't need specialist vehicles like Traffic or Firearms do.

ARVs (for firearms) do not need a specialist vehicle----just any car with a boot large enough to incorporate arms in a locked compartment----most vehicles on the british roads fits that bill (bill----no pun intended )

 

[6Z09]

Now that the Trade Unions have entered the fray we should get a bit wider debate!
Its really about peoples jobs not Nationalist or Unionist Scots!!

 

[Flamingo]

Does anybody know what happens in Northern Ireland (or the Republic of Ireland) for policing the railways?

Do the PSNI or Gardai have Railway sections, or do they just bring a MOM (or equivalent) with them as required to advise on issues?

And more importantly, does whatever they do, work?

 

[DT611]

Does anybody know what happens in Northern Ireland (or the Republic of Ireland) for policing the railways?

Do the PSNI or Gardai have Railway sections, or do they just bring a MOM (or equivalent) with them as required to advise on issues?

And more importantly, does whatever they do, work?

if there is an incident and the police are called they will come, but there is no force actualy dedicated to or actually policing the railway if you get what i mean. thats for the republic of ireland. the majority of long distance trains are driver only as well. from my experience incidents on my line are rather rare, can't say about others all be it dart and commuter services can have a little trouble from time to time. unfortunately the scum causing trouble on irish public transport are of a rare breed and nothing will work in deterring them it seems