Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[Bletchleyite]

If I interpret the statement (below) correctly, it appears that Sankey (for Penketh) service may be reduced to near "parliamentary level" once Warrington West station has been built & opened.:-


"The specified calls at Warrington West are required only once the station is open. Once Warrington West is open, the requirement for calls at Sankey for Penketh shall be one peak hour train per direction on weekdays."

Not another one. We really do need to sort out this situation properly and allow a station to be closed with a reasonable procedure where closure makes sense, and equally to prevent such reductions without closure-like proceedings where an obvious Parliamentary type service is being instituted.

In this case closure clearly makes sense - this is almost the same as if they'd kept Garston open with a Parliamentary service when South Parkway Northern Line platforms opened.

Neil

 

[Viscount702]

The off-peak trains on the Chat Moss route between Liverpool and Manchester appear to be there, just as now (1tph to Warrington BQ, 1tph to Manchester - station not specified).

I'm not to sure.

1tph to WBQ as now- Yes

The 1tph LIV-MCV stopper seems to have gone except for one in the peak.

The 1tph semi fast LIV-MIA seems to become the stopper.

 

[Greybeard33]

Not just a dedicated charger, you also have to consider their impact on existing electrified stretches, they would essentially be drawing twice as much power as normal, if you have a couple of them operating you may have to actually beef up the existing electrification supply to meet demand and they may possibly be creating under voltage brown spots in the network.

On the 379, they removed the traction motors from the car fitted with the battery raft and used the traction converter to power the battery charger instead. So the peak power drawn from the overhead line was no greater than for a standard 379. Acceleration was reduced, but still better than a DMU.

 

[47802]

I'm not to sure.

1tph to WBQ as now- Yes

The 1tph LIV-MCV stopper seems to have gone except for one in the peak.

The 1tph semi fast LIV-MIA seems to become the stopper.

Hmm that's not exactly maximising the expensive electrification project we have just had and minimising diesel haulage is it?

 

[northwichcat]

Hmm that's not exactly maximising the expensive electrification project we have just had and minimising diesel haulage is it?

They'll be 2 electric TPE services running Liverpool-Manchester post Manchester-York electrification.

Also I'm pretty sure I saw a requirement for Northern to run fast Manchester-Wigan services via Chat Moss and obviously there'll be the Liverpool-Wigan services plus potentially diverted WCML services (reducing the requirement for the WC franchise to depend on Voyagers.)

 

[47802]

They'll be 2 electric TPE services running Liverpool-Manchester post Manchester-York electrification.

Yes whenever that actually happens or the TPE get bi-modes.

Also looking at the TPE service I thought the so called semi fast TPE was to replace the stopper between Huddersfield and Manchester, but If I have understood it correctly it also replaces the Huddersfield - Leeds stopper, which makes it more of a semi-slow service rather than semi fast, also it looks to me that Dewsbury gets reduced to 3 trains per hour instead of 4 and also gets this semi slow service to Manchester instead of the current fast one, mean while we get 4 trains an hour only calling at Huddersfield is that really nessesary

 

[northwichcat]

One service is required in the other direction, departing Manchester between 1700 and 1759. Which oddly seems to suggest Manchester-Chester being half-hourly except at peak times.

Assuming the standard pattern ATW service remains at the same times I've worked out the Northern timings would be approx the below.

Chester arrivals at Manchester:
07:25
09:25
10:25
11:25
12:25
13:25
14:25
15:25
16:25
17:25
18:25
20:25
21:25

Ellesmere Port arrivals at Manchester:
08:25
19:25

Manchester departures for Chester:
06:20
07:20
08:20
09:20
10:20
11:20
12:20
13:20
14:20
15:20
16:20
18:20
19:20
20:20
21:20

Manchester departures for Ellesmere Port:
17:20

So I imagine ATW will still need to operate 1 extra in the morning peak in the Manchester direction and 1 extra in the evening peak in the Chester direction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also looking at the TPE service I thought the so called semi fast TPE was to replace the stopper between Huddersfield and Manchester, but If I have understood it correctly it also replaces the Huddersfield - Leeds stopper, which makes it more of a semi-slow service rather than semi fast, also it looks to me that Dewsbury gets reduced to 3 trains per hour instead of 4 and also gets this semi slow service to Manchester instead of the current fast one, mean while we get 4 trains an hour only calling at Huddersfield is that really nessesary

The track access application submitted by TPE on the instruction of DfT was for the semi-fast services (2tph) to call at 6 stations between Piccadilly and Leeds - Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury and 2 stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield. However, as you say that seems to have changed.

It now appears Dewsbury will also be served by one of the express services every hour, with all the 'semi-fasts' calling at Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Batley and Dewsbury. While all the other intermediate stations between Stalybridge and Leeds will get half the 'semi-fasts' stopping there, except Cottingley, with no requirement for TPE to serve Guide Bridge. So in total 8 stops between Piccadilly and Leeds for each semi-fast service.

 

[po8crg]

Is Manchester-Ellesmere Port via Chester and Hooton a permitted route? If so, that would make this useful for EP commuters to Manchester; if you miss the 17:20, you can get home the long way around.

 

[northwichcat]

Is Manchester-Ellesmere Port via Chester and Hooton a permitted route? If so, that would make this useful for EP commuters to Manchester; if you miss the 17:20, you can get home the long way around.

Yes. Although, not necessarily quicker than going via Liverpool.

17:20 is based on the standard pattern ATW departures from Manchester being around 16:50 and 17:50 and the requirement is for Northern to interwork their services with the ATW services to provide a roughly half-hourly frequency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think anyone's pointed out the start date of the next franchises listed in the ITT is shown as 1st April 2016 opposed to 5th February 2016, so presumably another franchise extension for Northern is to be awarded?

 

[WatcherZero]

On the 379, they removed the traction motors from the car fitted with the battery raft and used the traction converter to power the battery charger instead. So the peak power drawn from the overhead line was no greater than for a standard 379. Acceleration was reduced, but still better than a DMU.

Batteries doesn't magically recharge themselves, they have to be charged when its running under the wires, which means extra draw not just for traction but for all other electrical functions too. With a production model they wont want to reduce the number of motored bogies particularly with the extra weight of the batteries and the other components they removed from the test unit like a functional toilet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not to sure.
1tph to WBQ as now- Yes
The 1tph LIV-MCV stopper seems to have gone except for one in the peak.
The 1tph semi fast LIV-MIA seems to become the stopper.

You may be right.
The Northern (TPE replacement) between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington is not specified to run to the Airport (I think).
So it will be LIV-NLW-MAN-MIA (Chat Moss stopper)
and LIV-WAC-MAN (Northern Regional).
Victoria via Chat Moss will be served by TPE (limited stop) and the new Northern Chester-Leeds service.

When you think about it it retains the same train mileage on each LIV-MAN route, with TPE switching one train to run via Chat Moss and Northern switching one train to run via Warrington.

 

[Viscount702]

You may be right.
The Northern (TPE replacement) between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington is not specified to run to the Airport (I think).
So it will be LIV-NLW-MAN-MIA (Chat Moss stopper)
and LIV-WAC-MAN (Northern Regional).
Victoria via Chat Moss will be served by TPE (limited stop) and the new Northern Chester-Leeds service.

When you think about it it retains the same train mileage on each LIV-MAN route, with TPE switching one train to run via Chat Moss and Northern switching one train to run via Warrington.

The new Northern Regional to replace the TPE Scarborough is said in one place to go to Manchester but not where and in another place it says it goes to the airport. Who knows.

On the same theme what is going to happen to the stoppers on the CLC via Warrington Central when Oxford Road is redeveloped as part of the Hub (assuming it does) or any other train from the west which currently terminates at Oxford Road. They can't surely terminate there when platform 5 goes and they must go at least to Piccadilly. Will they terminate there or go somewhere else maybe the Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the same theme what is going to happen to the stoppers on the CLC via Warrington Central when Oxford Road is redeveloped as part of the Hub (assuming it does) or any other train from the west which currently terminates at Oxford Road. They can't surely terminate there when platform 5 goes and they must go at least to Piccadilly. Will they terminate there or go somewhere else maybe the Airport.

Could they terminate in platform 1? I believe that isn't used so often?

Neil

 

[Viscount702]

Could they terminate in platform 1? I believe that isn't used so often?

Neil

At present no. As I understand it if the Hub and the Chord do go ahead as planned then the extra capacity required means all platforms will be needed for through traffic leaving no space for terminators. However someone like Joseph will probably know the answer.

 

[Class 170101]

It also in another paragraph said the New Chester -Leeds via Calder Valley would go via Warrington Central rather than Bank Quay as in the quotes above.

How? Its not possible to travel directly between Manchester Victoria and Warrington Central.

 

[po8crg]

All four Oxford Road platforms will be needed for through services, and junctions will be rearranged so services can't terminate at the station anyway (crossovers will be removed).

This is to allow for a big increase in trains through Oxford Road and Piccadilly. More of the south of Piccadilly locals (Hazel Grove, Crewe, Marple, etc) will become through services onto the viaduct.

Trains to Piccadilly from the West will be extended onto one of those Stockport/Cheshire lines or to the Airport.

The plan is that trains into Piccadilly from the east (Guide Bridge) will all terminate there. Anything going through will go to Victoria instead and either head around Ordsall Chord and then South, or carry on West and not call at Piccadilly at all.

 

[158756]

What is the assumed date for North TPE electrification now? The documents don't seem very specific, but I notice that TPE are expected to increase capacity between December 2017 and 2018, whilst not acquiring any 17x units. Are they still expecting electrification then or are bidders required to come up with a more imaginative solution?

 

[Haydn1971]

What is the assumed date for North TPE electrification now?

September 2027

 

[Frothy]

September 2027

More like July 2020, but we could be in for a few more surprises yet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is the assumed date for North TPE electrification now? The documents don't seem very specific, but I notice that TPE are expected to increase capacity between December 2017 and 2018, whilst not acquiring any 17x units. Are they still expecting electrification then or are bidders required to come up with a more imaginative solution?

Patrick McLoughlin said "the early 2020s" to the Transport Select Committee today.
It appears to be being redesigned "to deliver a better solution".

 

[WatcherZero]

The tenders and electrification report point to 19/20 being the thinking without an official date.

 

[northwichcat]

Also looking at the TPE service I thought the so called semi fast TPE was to replace the stopper between Huddersfield and Manchester, but If I have understood it correctly it also replaces the Huddersfield - Leeds stopper, which makes it more of a semi-slow service rather than semi fast, also it looks to me that Dewsbury gets reduced to 3 trains per hour instead of 4 and also gets this semi slow service to Manchester instead of the current fast one, mean while we get 4 trains an hour only calling at Huddersfield is that really nessesary

Thinking again about this. Maybe the idea is the 'semi-fasts' can make calls between Huddersfield and Leeds without requiring extra diagrams and in doing that the DMUs currently used on the Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers can be freed up?

What is the assumed date for North TPE electrification now? The documents don't seem very specific, but I notice that TPE are expected to increase capacity between December 2017 and 2018, whilst not acquiring any 17x units. Are they still expecting electrification then or are bidders required to come up with a more imaginative solution?

Presumably the 185s currently used on Blackpool and Cumbria services will be transferred to North/South TPE, with a combination DMUs freed up on Northern routes and newly acquired EMUs taking over those services. Northern will have to introduce regional stock on Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Cumbria services but using other stock as an interim measure until regional stock can be acquired doesn't seem to be ruled out.

The idea regarding Northern regional electric services seems to be TPE will get new trains for Scottish services and the 350/4s become Northern regional trains. I imagine the easiest ways of getting regional diesel stock would either be refurbished Scotrail 170s or some of the new trains being ordered with a regional interior. Unless bidders want to propose fitting a reliable air conditioning system to the 158s (a reliable air conditioning system being a requirement for regional stock.)

 

[WatcherZero]

185's and whatever new stock they order probably. Barrow will require diesels but otherwise it will all be electric routes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The idea regarding Northern regional electric services seems to be TPE will get new trains for Scottish services and the 350/4s become Northern regional trains. I imagine the easiest ways of getting regional diesel stock would either be refurbished Scotrail 170s or some of the new trains being ordered with a regional interior. Unless bidders want to propose fitting a reliable air conditioning system to the 158s (a reliable air conditioning system being a requirement for regional stock.)

It will be an odd order for TPE.
Scottish services from Manchester/Liverpool won't amount to many (20 4-car EMUs max?), and the dates for any more will depend on an unknown date for TP electrification.
Builders are not going to hold options open for more than a year or two I would have thought (the production phase for the initial order).
Unless they cover all bases and go for bi-mode IEPs.
I suppose there might be synergies with future EMT and GA EMU orders, but these ITTs won't be ready in time to influence the TPE bids.
We also still have the constraint of 110mph max on the WCML without tilt.

 

[edwin_m]

It will be an odd order for TPE.
Scottish services from Manchester/Liverpool won't amount to many (20 4-car EMUs max?), and the dates for any more will depend on an unknown date for TP electrification.
Builders are not going to hold options open for more than a year or two I would have thought (the production phase for the initial order).
Unless they cover all bases and go for bi-mode IEPs.
I suppose there might be synergies with future EMT and GA EMU orders, but these ITTs won't be ready in time to influence the TPE bids.
We also still have the constraint of 110mph max on the WCML without tilt.

Without going back into the ITTs again, I think they make clear that TPE is allowed to keep the 350s and Northern can only have them if no TPE does not want them. It would seem most sensible for TPE to hang onto its existing fleet (bar the 170s) until whenever electrification happens when, probably, a new build of EMUs will replace the 350s and most of the 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

Without going back into the ITTs again, I think they make clear that TPE is allowed to keep the 350s and Northern can only have them if no TPE does not want them.

For TPE:

The Department requires a Franchisee who will:
i. Lease the current franchisee’s fleet of 10 4-car Class 350 EMUs from the Start
Date until at least 19 September 2018;
ii. Sub-lease rolling stock to the Northern franchisee from the Start Date until the
December 2017 timetable change in accordance with the arrangements set out
in Schedule 6.2 of the Franchise Agreement; and
iii. Lease such other rolling stock as the Secretary of State may reasonably
require in consequence of the departure of the class 170 vehicles that are
leased to the Chiltern franchise from February 2016. As a proxy for the
arrangements that the Department anticipates putting in place with the
incumbent operator, Bidders are to assume for bid purposes that they will
inherit a lease for four two-car diesel multiple units of comparable capacity
and other characteristics to the class 170 vehicles. Bidders must assume that
this lease would expire on the timetable change date in December 2017.

So the option for 350s leaving the franchise exists from 2018.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Scottish services from Manchester/Liverpool won't amount to many (20 4-car EMUs max?), and the dates for any more will depend on an unknown date for TP electrification.

Hopefully the next franchise operator will want to eliminate 4 car workings between Manchester and Scotland.

TPE ITT also include options for Scotland-Blackpool services (as portion working) and extending services beyond Manchester Airport to Crewe.

2tph between Crewe and Manchester Airport was a recommendation in the West Coast RUS but it was expected EMT would operate the second service.

Unless they cover all bases and go for bi-mode IEPs.

Bi-mode trains (not specifically IEP) have been mooted for TPE. Tony Miles reported bidders have been in talks with manufacturers including Alstom with regards to new trains for TPE.

 

[po8crg]

(Re: IEPs) Can't imagine TPE wanting end-door trains for most routes, the stations are just too frequent on their routes to let the dwell times rise. I also couldn't see Network Rail shelling out for the infrastructure work for 26m carriages.

But bi-mode on a Desiro City or Coradia or AT200 (etc) could be very tempting; it would allow the Middlesbrough and Scarborough trains to continue to run, would be useful for Hull until that gets electrified, and obviously would be useful on the core until TP electrification.

Such a train could be built with 115mph ability on electric and 90mph on diesel; I don't think there's much, if any, running above 90mph on any of the non-electrified track; TPE fast running is mostly on WCML and ECML. 125mph or 140mph would make ECML pathing easier, but probably at too high a price in both financial terms and in space terms (higher top speed will require a bigger crumple zone and more streamlining, both at the expense of passenger space).

 

[northwichcat]

(Re: IEPs) Can't imagine TPE wanting end-door trains for most routes, the stations are just too frequent on their routes to let the dwell times rise. I also couldn't see Network Rail shelling out for the infrastructure work for 26m carriages.

The TPE spec requires mainly express services.

Manchester-Liverpool via Warrington is going over to Northern so that TPE services can all run non-stop between Liverpool and Victoria via Chat Moss. They'll be two 'semi-fasts' on North TPE so that the other 4 hourly services on North TPE have a mostly Intercity style stopping pattern.

While on Scottish services there's a requirement for peak time services to run Manchester to Preston non-stop to prevent them carrying local commuter traffic. Northern are to enhance Manchester to Bolton/Wigan services.

South TPE will remain as it is but I imagine the 185s will remain on that route.

So if you put Intercity stock on all services except South TPE and the North TPE 'semi-fasts' the commuter concerns isn't any worse than Virgin's Pendolinos being used for selected commuter flows in Lancashire/Cumbria. Yet I don't hear people complaining about Virgin's Scottish services having end doors which are very slow to open instead of Desiro style doors.

However, I agree with your point about it being unlikely that the infrastructure changes for IEP would happen on TPE.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Northern appears to have been given derogations of the 2020 deadline for TSI-PRM compliance, for its Class 150 and 156 units:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/410413/angel_class_156_4_March_2015.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/410411/angel_class_150_4_March_2015.pdf

I assume this is because the degree of non-compliance in the areas quoted is minimal.
I've no idea if this means no work at all is necessary.
It must simplify the upgrade plan for these unit types for the new franchise.
Luckily, there appears to be no similar letter covering Pacers!

 

[WatcherZero]

Would of thought most efficient thing for TPE would be to order a dozen (or however many is required for Scotland diagrams plus spares) 8 car units. They can then up the catering offer and add a sensible amount of first class.

Northern appears to have been given derogations of the 2020 deadline for TSI-PRM compliance, for its Class 150 and 156 units:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/410413/angel_class_156_4_March_2015.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/410411/angel_class_150_4_March_2015.pdf

I assume this is because the degree of non-compliance in the areas quoted is minimal.
I've no idea if this means no work at all is necessary.
It must simplify the upgrade plan for these unit types for the new franchise.
Luckily, there appears to be no similar letter covering Pacers!

Presumably they are thinking let the 150/156 ride out the franchise without a major refurb as they may be released making a full refurb not worthwhile or they may want to put off a refurb till after 2020. Timing suggests this is a response to initial rolling stock queries from the shortlisted bidders for Northern (since they are supposed to present preliminary rolling stock plans within a month of the ITT). Would imagine one or more bidder has queried whether they need to be refurbed if they were released/refurbed shortly after 2020.