Railway Keys Often For Sale On Ebay

[exsignalman]

Has anyone else noticed railway keys often being sold on Ebay? (despite them being prohibited & banned items),

The problem is that since the privatisation of BR (& it ceasing to exist) is that now almost anything with BR on it is thought to be "Old/Antique/Collectible/Defunct/Vintage/Obsolete,etc".

This includes keys.

The ubiquitous Guards Tee T Keys are always on,as are Drivers Master Keys & the BR1 & BR1B Keys.

On the odd occasion I have seen though other things like 221 222 keys,signal post replacement keys.

Last year I saw an "Old BR Collectible Tin" that had around 2 dozen LIVE DETONATORS IN IT!!hock:

Often it would appear that railway keys etc will be innocently sold by relatives of former (possibly deceased??) members of staff,with an Ebay listing being worded something like this........

"OLD BRITISH RAIL OBSOLETE RAILWAY ANTIQUE KEYS,POSSIBLY COLLECTIBLE"

"I am clearing out my Granddad`s/Dad`s/Uncle`s desk & he worked on BR,here are some of his old/antique keys"
(& no doubt the keys will be "antique" enough to still fit some current traction etc) & be of something like a Number 1 Key,Master Key,"Tee" Key.

Ebay Customer servicesdont reply to emails,ignore the file reports & let the items through,breaching their own policy.

So it would seem that if you want to flog any items that breach Ebay`s policy then just slip the words Collectible,Obsolete,Defunct,Antique into the listing.

This Can`t be right!.

 

[OpsWeb]

I have seen a few driver's keys on eBay and have always reported them (not that I have ever heard anything back).

From memory, I seem to remember it being illegal under TRANSEC legislation to knowingly sell things which could compromise transport security risk public safety.

Also, things which relate (i.e keys to restricted areas such as T-Keys) can only be held by people who have a "reasonable" excuse to have them, such as a Guard or Driver.

So as well as being illegal to sell them, I would suggest it is also illegal to buy or possess them.

 

[Aictos]

Unless you need a T Key as part of the equipment for your job, nobody needs one and that's only one example but it relates to all railway keys.

I just fail to see why Joe Bloggs needs this equipment just because it's railwayana.

 

[Railsigns]

I know the British Transport Police would take an interest in this.

 

[crehld]

I'm guessing "T Keys" are the things guards have to open doors, door control panels and such like on trains? They're hardly the most secure devices given I have seen yobbos gain access to all parts of a train and pull a carriage apart with just an allen key before.

 

[Lincoln]

I'm guessing "T Keys" are the things guards have to open doors, door control panels and such like on trains? They're hardly the most secure devices given I have seen yobbos gain access to all parts of a train and pull a carriage apart with just an allen key before.

Indeed, the locks themselves are marketed as "budget locks" for a reason

Although in seriousness I wish that something moderately more secure was used!

 

[Aictos]

Such keys are also used by Dispatchers, Drivers, Guards too.

 

[exsignalman]

I'm guessing "T Keys" are the things guards have to open doors, door control panels and such like on trains? They're hardly the most secure devices given I have seen yobbos gain access to all parts of a train and pull a carriage apart with just an allen key before.

Yeah,T keys are the ones used by guards to access the door controls for example,but a BR1 or BR1B will get you into locked off drivers cabs etc,open signal post telephones,TRTS panels etc.

Bit naughty that Ebay are hosting these sales,day in day out (& letting them sell too).

 

[bramling]

I'm guessing "T Keys" are the things guards have to open doors, door control panels and such like on trains? They're hardly the most secure devices given I have seen yobbos gain access to all parts of a train and pull a carriage apart with just an allen key before.

Whilst these items shouldn't be in general circulation, the reality is they are and always have been fairly easy to get hold of. I can't readily think of any occasions when mis-use of any kind of key has ever been a factor in an incident. I'd be more concerned about driver's keys being in general circulation -- although one wouldn't get far without a pretty good knowledge of the various pieces of equipment in a cab.

 

[exsignalman]

I know the British Transport Police would take an interest in this.

They are aware,but I was told that the problem is that Ebay is in the US & it kind of falls outside the jurisdiction of the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst these items shouldn't be in general circulation, the reality is they are and always have been fairly easy to get hold of. I can't readily think of any occasions when mis-use of any kind of key has ever been a factor in an incident. I'd be more concerned about driver's keys being in general circulation -- although one wouldn't get far without a pretty good knowledge of the various pieces of equipment in a cab.

You can often buy the drivers traincrew manuals,there were loads on last week.

 

[Railsigns]

They are aware,but I was told that the problem is that Ebay is in the US & it kind of falls outside the jurisdiction of the UK.

This was the outcome of a similar attempt to sell S&T keys back in 2004:

"The keys that were for sale on Ebay are now back with NR Professional Head of Signalling and BTP have a detailed statement including copies of various E mails."

 

[LAX54]

I would have thought anyone found selling 222 or 221 keys would be for the high jump! still a very 'secure' key

 

[exsignalman]

I would have thought anyone found selling 222 or 221 keys would be for the high jump! still a very 'secure' key

Not seen any of those recently,or for a while.but you would think that all railway keys in this day & age selling them like this on Ebay would be a big no no.

I`m surprised that it`s so casual on Ebay.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They are aware,but I was told that the problem is that Ebay is in the US & it kind of falls outside the jurisdiction of the UK.

e-Bay does, however, have a .co.uk version of the site and a large administrative office in I think the Ealing area so the certainly do trade within the UK within the meaning of the law.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing "T Keys" are the things guards have to open doors, door control panels and such like on trains? They're hardly the most secure devices given I have seen yobbos gain access to all parts of a train and pull a carriage apart with just an allen key before.

Other keys I would agree with, but T-keys really are not a secure system, there are loads of them around, and many, many things that will substitute for them.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

Catering staff and First Class hosts, some of them contractors not employed by TOCs, and even preserved railways and the like have use of T Keys, do they not? Hardly secure items. And yet I could de-construct bits of a 158 with one!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Catering staff and First Class hosts, some of them contractors not employed by TOCs, and even preserved railways and the like have use of T Keys, do they not? Hardly secure items. And yet I could de-construct bits of a 158 with one!

Realistically, if the railway think that (thinking of T-keys) is a problem they should consider changing the locks.

Neil

 

[JaJaWa]

I've reported lanyards and uniforms to the train companies and they've always been removed from eBay. Perhaps keys should be reported to Network Rail?

 

[HSTEd]

As I understand it BR1 keys, or very similar patterns, have ended up being used in any number of seperate fields - not really sure its 'secure' any more.

 

[BestWestern]

This just goes to show what a nonsense the security arrangements on the railways sadly are, particarly with the supposed requirements of Transec. IMHO all cab areas of trains should be properly secure, not with a crappy 'T key' but with a proper lock. Keys should be numbered and issued on the basis that staff are properly accountable for them. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. Having said that, on plenty of ex BR units the cab doors are so crap a key is pretty superfluous anyway :roll:

 

[bramling]

This just goes to show what a nonsense the security arrangements on the railways sadly are, particarly with the supposed requirements of Transec. IMHO all cab areas of trains should be properly secure, not with a crappy 'T key' but with a proper lock. Keys should be numbered and issued on the basis that staff are properly accountable for them. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. Having said that, on plenty of ex BR units the cab doors are so crap a key is pretty superfluous anyway :roll:

On London Underground any cab can be entered by either smashing glass, or removing a flap, to gain access to the handle; meanwhile the key that drivers use to access the cab is even more basic than a T key.

The difference is that all cab doors are alarmed and will give an indication to the driver (as long as the driver is present in his cab to see the alarm of course). Perhaps this would be more useful than more secure locks, as presently on a mainline train anyone could enter an unused cab without being noticed. Having said all this, apart from the issue with the class 313s on the Hertford Loop, I don't believe unauthorised access to cabs is something which seems to be on the radar as being an issue. On LUL every now and again an intruder alarm is activated, but in most cases it tends to be a false activation of the maglock, and on the *very* rare occasions there is an unauthorised person in the cab it's normally drunks.

 

[BestWestern]

Transec certainly see it as a security risk, and I'd most certainly have an issue with it! Difficult balance where emergency access is required, but no excuse in any other circumstance.

 

[HLE]

I've seen plastic keys pretty much the same shape as a T key being used to secure lids on some industrial size bins. Not sure whether the plastic would be strong enough to access a cab - the locks are pretty 'weak' anyway! It's square tapered head was the same size as a BR key. I'm sure they are also used for other things as well that are completely unrelated to the railways.

A quick Google search reveals a number of websites selling keys, it does mention they will check that you are required to have one before they will dispatch.

 

[Jonfun]

Catering staff and First Class hosts, some of them contractors not employed by TOCs, and even preserved railways and the like have use of T Keys, do they not? Hardly secure items. And yet I could de-construct bits of a 158 with one!

T Keys aren't a secure key, more a deterrant against unauthorised access. I'd be surprised if there's any member of railway staff of whatever grade not issued with one - circulation amongst heritage railway staff are generally the least of anyone's worries though, as they'll most likely have the sense not to fiddle. If one of these "choo choo I wanna play train driver"-type spotters got hold of one however...

 

[matchmaker]

I've seen plastic keys pretty much the same shape as a T key being used to secure lids on some industrial size bins. Not sure whether the plastic would be strong enough to access a cab - the locks are pretty 'weak' anyway! It's square tapered head was the same size as a BR key. I'm sure they are also used for other things as well that are completely unrelated to the railways.

A quick Google search reveals a number of websites selling keys, it does mention they will check that you are required to have one before they will dispatch.

I was a volunteer on a preserved railway and for operational purposes needed both a T key and a BR1 key - bit difficult to shunt carriages if you can't get into them!

I made my first T key...

 

[SPADTrap]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Train-con...902?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c97d4aa6e

Here is one now

 

[ASharpe]

T keys are not secure at all and should not be used to secure anything important. They are only slightly better than one of the glass plates to discourage tampering.

They also have many uses outside the railway, a few I have seen are:
trailers
horse boxes
loft hatches
boiler cupboards
concealed toilet cisterns

and I am sure there are many more. So there are lots of legitamate reasons for them to be sold.

BR1 keys are a different matter entirely.

 

[SPADTrap]

T keys are not secure at all and should not be used to secure anything important. They are only slightly better than one of the glass plates to discourage tampering.

They also have many uses outside the railway, a few I have seen are:
trailers
horse boxes
loft hatches
boiler cupboards
concealed toilet cisterns

and I am sure there are many more. So there are lots of legitamate reasons for them to be sold.

BR1 keys are a different matter entirely.

If it is a railway key then it shouldn't be sold anywhere...on some units VERY critical things are secured with such a lock.......

Everything on your list should come with its own key and you will not need a railway key to operate them! They are NOT legitimate reasons to sell railway keys, not even close!

We were briefed a while ago following a member of the public accessing a cab on EMT and attempting to drive the train, they managed to roll the unit on brake release but thankfully not take traction power...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've found 3 x BR1 & a master switch key on there, but I'm not having much luck in trying to report the items.

I can't find the correct methods or categories.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Preserved railways have reported plural metal thefts where the thieves got in with 221 keys. I believe some preserved railways have actually switched over to other locks because the generic railway keys are too available - says a lot!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it is a railway key then it shouldn't be sold anywhere...on some units VERY critical things are secured with such a lock.......

Everything on your list should come with its own key and you will not need a railway key to operate them! They are NOT legitimate reasons to sell railway keys, not even close!

We were briefed a while ago following a member of the public accessing a cab on EMT and attempting to drive the train and managed to roll the unit on brake release but thankfully not take traction power...

T-keys are not railway keys! Square "locks" are used in many places (eg some cupboards in my flat) and are in no way a security mechanism of any sort