Railway Keys Often For Sale On Ebay

[SPADTrap]

T-keys are not railway keys! Square "locks" are used in many places (eg some cupboards in my flat) and are in no way a security mechanism of any sort

So they will come with a 'square lock' key and won't require one from a TOC, nor the selling of keys issued by the railways for railway purposes.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's worrying that anything access to which would worry you is hidden behind a "lock" that can be opened with, among many other things, a flathead screwdriver

 

[SPADTrap]

It's worrying that anything access to which would worry you is hidden behind a "lock" that can be opened with, among many other things, a flathead screwdriver

Quite! hock:

 

[BestWestern]

T-keys are not railway keys! Square "locks" are used in many places (eg some cupboards in my flat) and are in no way a security mechanism of any sort

There are a couple of additional features of a carriage key which can help prevent the use of other implements to gain unauthorised access; they can offer better security than a simple square-end key. Unfortunately these extra safeguards don't feature on many of the locks in which the keys are used.

 

[matchmaker]

Preserved railways have reported plural metal thefts where the thieves got in with 221 keys. I believe some preserved railways have actually switched over to other locks because the generic railway keys are too available - says a lot!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


T-keys are not railway keys! Square "locks" are used in many places (eg some cupboards in my flat) and are in no way a security mechanism of any sort

Exactly! All you need is a 1/4" square bar as used in virtually every household door handle.

 

[SPADTrap]

Exactly! All you need is a 1/4" square bar as used in virtually every household door handle.

The difference between this and an actual T key being the square 'block' has a bit to allow it to rotate in a lock, can't think of a way to describe it!

You couldn't operate a CD/RA box for example with this 'door handle' thingy

 

[thelongestroad]

You couldn't operate a CD/RA box for example with this 'door handle' thingy

I've seen many, many RA buttons which aren't locked, or if there is a lock it's not locked.

Don't leave personal valuables in the cabs, folks...

 

[ASharpe]

You couldn't operate a CD/RA box for example with this 'door handle' thingy

Yes you can, the latch on those doors are the same as the ones built in to most internal domestic doors.

But the handles with a square bolt between them does the job of a T key.

 

[PermitToTravel]

There are a couple of additional features of a carriage key which can help prevent the use of other implements to gain unauthorised access; they can offer better security than a simple square-end key. Unfortunately these extra safeguards don't feature on many of the locks in which the keys are used.

They'd perhaps deter the casual vandal, but not do very much to stop anybody who'd like to fashion their own key that fits - and such people are worth far more worry!

 

[BestWestern]

The difference between this and an actual T key being the square 'block' has a bit to allow it to rotate in a lock, can't think of a way to describe it!

You couldn't operate a CD/RA box for example with this 'door handle' thingy

Indeed. This allows a plate to be placed over the lock to prevent a simple square implement being used, as it won't turn with the lock. A proper carriage key also has a small shaft cut into the block end, and the more secure locks have a corresponding 'pin' in the centre of the lock cut-out. This further helps prevent anything else being used to open the lock. Not exactly bomb proof but it certainly helps.

 

[Bevan Price]

I've found 3 x BR1 & a master switch key on there, but I'm not having much luck in trying to report the items.

I can't find the correct methods or categories.

Presumably items taken "without permission", i.e. "stolen" ?
Surely the police ought to be interested in stolen property ?

 

[SPADTrap]

Yes you can, the latch on those doors are the same as the ones built in to most internal domestic doors.

But the handles with a square bolt between them does the job of a T key.

No, you can't...At least you can't on all the ones I've used! I don't mean to open the door..I mean to actually operate it as I said...quite different if you read what I said

And no in this case it doesn't do the job of a T key.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've seen many, many RA buttons which aren't locked, or if there is a lock it's not locked.

Don't leave personal valuables in the cabs, folks...

Quite, but I wasn't talking about the lock on the door!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed. This allows a plate to be placed over the lock to prevent a simple square implement being used, as it won't turn with the lock. A proper carriage key also has a small shaft cut into the block end, and the more secure locks have a corresponding 'pin' in the centre of the lock cut-out. This further helps prevent anything else being used to open the lock. Not exactly bomb proof but it certainly helps.

This is what I meant!

For reference, when I was a dispatcher I tried using the other end of the T-key in a CD/RA box (the end that could be likened to a door handle thingy)...it didn't work as per BestWestern's description.

 

[g.satchwell]

It certainly is the case that in years gone by 21 keys at T keys were part of the necessary kit of any self respecting mailbag thief. So such keys HAVE most definitely been used for illegal purposes. However, another question arises, BR keys, and those issued in the since the demise of BR, remain(ed) the property of the issuing authority and should have been returned upon retirement, or other end of employment.
Despite a comment to the contrary, there is no specific criminal offence of wrongly possessing security issue items.
So, does that mean the BTP would be interested in the appearance of a T key on EBay? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Elecman]

No but hopefully they would for Electrification Sustation And Signalling Grandmaster keys which are restricted issue keys

 

[ScotrailINV]

What's worrying is that there are quite a few master keys that have sold for £12 within the last few weeks:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Collectables-/1/i.html?_from=R40|R40&_nkw=br+key&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

One of the sold listings on there even goes into detail on how the key should be used! I just fail to understand why any collector would feel the need to have one of these, especially when they're a high risk should they fall into the wrong hands.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Particularly when the knobs are posting photographs of these keys on the internet - sufficient to duplicate one!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

On London Underground any cab can be entered by either smashing glass, or removing a flap, to gain access to the handle; meanwhile the key that drivers use to access the cab is even more basic than a T key.

.

Maybe but you try selling a J Door Key on Ebay and they will be on your case. A retired member of staff was chased up for selling old issue items even though he'd retired 7 years ago. All items issued to you remain company property and must be returned upon leaving the company - all employees sign a contract to that effect. There are people who's job it is to watch television, read newspapers and browse the internet to see if anything detrimental with regard to the underground turns up.

 

[SPADTrap]

What's worrying is that there are quite a few master keys that have sold for £12 within the last few weeks:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Collectables-/1/i.html?_from=R40|R40&_nkw=br+key&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc

One of the sold listings on there even goes into detail on how the key should be used! I just fail to understand why any collector would feel the need to have one of these, especially when they're a high risk should they fall into the wrong hands.

Wow that's a pretty large scale selling of control keys and BR1 keys...quite concerning! How irresponsible of someone who is presumably ex staff!

There is no need for a collector to have one!

 

[paul1609]

Other keys I would agree with, but T-keys really are not a secure system, there are loads of them around, and many, many things that will substitute for them.

Neil

T keys are used in loads of places outside the rail industry. My heritage railway issued t key will open the diesel accoustic module panels on a type 23 frigate!

 

[lincolnshire]

Wow that's a pretty large scale selling of control keys and BR1 keys...quite concerning! How irresponsible of someone who is presumably ex staff!

There is no need for a collector to have one!

You can forget the ex staff in some cases as when your out and about its amazing just how many agency staff , contractors etc have all the keys needed to get to places these days, it seems there is no control whatsoever these days over who has them.

I remember years ago if we wanted to go in a Relay Room we had to borrow the key from an S & T person and return it after we had finished and we was also B.R. staff of the ODM department, as we was not allowed one.

All this just seemed to collapse after Railtrack took over and now under Network Rail seems to have got worse, just stop the station cat and see how many keys it has hung round its neck so that it can get anywhere it wants to wether it should be there or not.

 

[AndyPJG]

Also already for sale on ebay:- VTEC lanyard

 

[crehld]

Also already for sale on ebay:- VTEC lanyard

£12.50! hock:

 

[Cliveblackpool]

In general, even using a key that fits a lock, to access any private property, is against the law - same as picking a lock etc.
AFAIK BR never sold tokens for current signalling equipment without mutilating them, other than to heritage railways.

 

[Jonny]

Particularly when the knobs are posting photographs of these keys on the internet - sufficient to duplicate one!

Agreed - all you need from there on is a 3d printer that uses sufficiently strong materials. One photo is probably enough for a BR1 key, more modern key types might be harder though (if they depend partly on the side of the key), then you would need pictures of both sides.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also already for sale on ebay:- VTEC lanyard

Highly questionable, but a lanyard of itself is less important than what is attached to it. There is still some risk though, particularly if people only take a cursory glance for whatever reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

£12.50! hock:

And six quid postage & packing, the cheeky sods.

 

[A-driver]

Also already for sale on ebay:- VTEC lanyard

I hope they get a sufficient amount for it to make risking their job worthwhile! I'd guess VT are very active trolling eBay etc for such things and if the seller can be traced as an employee they will face dismissal.

When first left the GN franchise posters were put up warning us that any first group equipment or uniform found on eBay would be fully investigated and criminal charges may he brought against any staff found to be selling first groups property.

 

[Mojo]

£12.50! hock:

Check out the related items; someone was selling East Coast Trains lanyards at £30 a pop. And they had two for sale, one has already been snapped up!

 

[PermitToTravel]

In general, even using a key that fits a lock, to access any private property, is against the law - same as picking a lock etc.
AFAIK BR never sold tokens for current signalling equipment without mutilating them, other than to heritage railways.

I'm intrigued - do you have a source for this? It was my understanding that picking a lock and walking into a random house is not a crime, if no damage is done to the lock (or to anything else).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm intrigued - do you have a source for this? It was my understanding that picking a lock and walking into a random house is not a crime, if no damage is done to the lock (or to anything else).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burglary

would perhaps suggest otherwise? See point 1.

Though it also says there is an intent of committing a felony therein. If not, perhaps you're right. Under which laws have urban explorers typically been prosecuted? They normally enter with no intent to cause damage or theft, only to take photographs.

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

Breaking and entering requires you to break things, and burglary requires you to intend to commit other crimes (e.g. theft). Urban exploration is legal in the UK

Trespassing on a railway is specifically illegal, of course

 

[matchmaker]

Particularly when the knobs are posting photographs of these keys on the internet - sufficient to duplicate one!

Check out Unipart Rail. Their online catalogue has illustrations of dozens of railway keys. A Google on "BR1 key" will find them. Anyone can look at it!