Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)

[Bevan Price]

Why bother, a heritage line with a first gen DMU may be better off selling it to another line and getting a few pacers. As although not as popular with the enthusiasts it would make maintenance easier as there would only be one type of unit to deal with. Given the low speeds of most of the lines there wouldn't be the problems with running them near their top speeds.

Heritage railways exist on "non-enthusiast" custom - they need to attract passengers, not discourage them with something like Pacers --- and non-enthusiasts do notice the difference. I was on a 142 a couple of weeks ago, and overheard another (obviously not a local) passenger comment that the train design looked "pre-steam age".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heritage railways exist on "non-enthusiast" custom - they need to attract passengers, not discourage them with something like Pacers --- and non-enthusiasts do notice the difference. I was on a 142 a couple of weeks ago, and overheard another (obviously not a local) passenger comment that the train design looked "pre-steam age".

I find that 143s and 144s look older because of the rounded ceiling which is very reminiscent of things like original Mk1s, Mk1 DMUs and German Silberlinge.

Neil

 

[Llama]

I suspect Pacers and Sprinters would have problems on a 25mph heritage line because the transmission only locks up at a higher speed so they would always be running on torque convertor.

The transmission doesn't 'lock up', at a speed between about 30 (notch 1) and 45mph (notch 7) the primary influence EP valve operates emptying the torque converter of hydraulic fluid and filling the fluid coupling. The fluid coupling works in a very similar way to the torque converter (indeed torque converters are a type of fluid coupling) but lacks the stator between the turbine and impeller.

If a pacer unit on a preserved line never exceeds 25mph then it will in theory never use the fluid coupling stage of the transmission, so any fault preventing the transmission stepping up shouldn't cause an issue in itself in normal operation (and also wouldn't be detected). It certainly would be detected if the unit was to embark on a foray on the main line though.

 

[superalbs]

Has the refurb started yet, and are there any pictures?

 

[edwin_m]

The transmission doesn't 'lock up', at a speed between about 30 (notch 1) and 45mph (notch 7) the primary influence EP valve operates emptying the torque converter of hydraulic fluid and filling the fluid coupling. The fluid coupling works in a very similar way to the torque converter (indeed torque converters are a type of fluid coupling) but lacks the stator between the turbine and impeller.

If a pacer unit on a preserved line never exceeds 25mph then it will in theory never use the fluid coupling stage of the transmission, so any fault preventing the transmission stepping up shouldn't cause an issue in itself in normal operation (and also wouldn't be detected). It certainly would be detected if the unit was to embark on a foray on the main line though.

Thanks for the better information. Will running constantly on the torque convertor cause any reliability problems? I imagine it would use more fuel, as I think the torque converter wastes some energy.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

You'd have to convert them to steam railmotors to get them on the Bluebell!

Lavender Line at Isfield have a First Gen Railbus. Maybe if they extended the line to Barcombe and to Uckfield (Original) then what a sight that would be!:roll:

 

[Gareth Marston]

The released 150s will need a costly refurbishment to make them accessible (and not dump toilet waste on the tracks) as well.

But their not Pacers and seemingly there's uses for them beyond 2020.

 

[northwichcat]

But their not Pacers and seemingly there's uses for them beyond 2020.

If there's uses for them post-2020 then they'll be refurbished and used for that purpose. They certainly won't be sat around out-of-use having had an accessible refurbishment just in case there's a 18 month delay to an electrification program somewhere.

Someone claimed a while back Porterbrook told the Welsh Assembly if they want a number of accessible DMUs for Valley Lines then they'll need to delay electrification until CP7 to justify the cost of making the DMUs accessible.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Someone claimed a while back Porterbrook told the Welsh Assembly if they want a number of accessible DMUs for Valley Lines then they'll need to delay electrification until CP7 to justify the cost of making the DMUs accessible.

Which is very awkward given that electrification looks likely to be CP6 (after the TSI-PRM deadline, but close enough that making stock accessible is apparently not finacially worthwhile).

 

[northwichcat]

Which is very awkward given that electrification looks likely to be CP6 (after the TSI-PRM deadline, but close enough that making stock accessible is apparently not finacially worthwhile).

Maybe the solution is to find plans for new services or enhanced services to start in CP6 - like North Wales to Liverpool, then the accessible DMUs can be found a long term home?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Maybe the solution is to find plans for new services or enhanced services to start in CP6 - like North Wales to Liverpool, then the accessible DMUs can be found a long term home?

Pacers wouldn't be suitable for a service like Liverpool-Llandudno, would they. Perhaps the converted D stock option would have alternative homes if you can modify the interior from the option with lots of doors (which you might want for the ValleyLines) to the middle-distance version with seats blocking some of the doorways once the ValleyLines are wired.

 

[northwichcat]

Pacers wouldn't be suitable for a service like Liverpool-Llandudno, would they.

It was just an example of a proposed route which hasn't been given the green light to start yet. Ideally that sort of service would need something better than a 150 as well.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It was just an example of a proposed route which hasn't been given the green light to start yet. Ideally that sort of service would need something better than a 150 as well.

I quite agree. Both 150s and Pacers should not be used on services over 1hr in my opinion, if it can be avoided, but sadly currently there don't seem to be enough nicer trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite agree. Both 150s and Pacers should not be used on services over 1hr in my opinion, if it can be avoided, but sadly currently there don't seem to be enough nicer trains.

It also depends what you do with the 150. Fitted with 2+2 seating with a decent pitch they wouldn't be terrible.

Neil

 

[Rhydgaled]

It also depends what you do with the 150. Fitted with 2+2 seating with a decent pitch they wouldn't be terrible.

The coaches are only 20m long though and they have wide doors at intervals along the saloon (rather than narrower ones at vehicle ends only, as 153/155/156/158 etc. have) so if you provided decent legroom (the ATW ones have 2+2 seating, but the seats are packed really close together) you might make them suitable for longer journeys but you wouldn't be able to fit in all that many seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The coaches are only 20m long though and they have wide doors at intervals along the saloon (rather than narrower ones at vehicle ends only, as 153/155/156/158 etc. have) so if you provided decent legroom (the ATW ones have 2+2 seating, but the seats are packed really close together) you might make them suitable for longer journeys but you wouldn't be able to fit in all that many seats.

I'd make it 56 per vehicle if you laid it out on all 2+2 with tables plus one row of airline seats, or 60 in the vehicle without the bog where you'd get one more bay in (you'd probably want that for bikes/luggage though). Not terrible given that some of the 20m is used for the cab, and a Mk2 is only 64 seats.

Probably remove another 4 and replace another 4 with side-facing tip-ups to get a disabled bog in.

Something like that would be fairly decent for the Conwy Valley as a substitute for the 153, though the 153 admittedly has a better all-round view.

Neil

 

[Chester1]

I am guessing building a modern sprinter DEMU and converting them to EMUs in the long term is too expensive for 100-200 trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am guessing building a modern sprinter DEMU and converting them to EMUs in the long term is too expensive for 100-200 trains?

I think there is a very good chance that that, well, a bi-mode, is what it will end up being.

Neil

 

[Parallel]

I quite agree. Both 150s and Pacers should not be used on services over 1hr in my opinion, if it can be avoided, but sadly currently there don't seem to be enough nicer trains.

Aren't the majority of Valley lines services and Devon metro services over an hour long, end to end?

I think Pacers are acceptable for lines that have a stop every few minutes, or services that have a big interchange/focus station (people doing short journeys, not end to end ones), i.e. Exeter St Davids, maybe metro lines around Bristol and Cardiff. They are well suited to the Exmouth line, okay for the Paignton stoppers. Slightly more questionable for Barnstaple but as the current diagrams interlock with other Exmouth and Paignton services, you can see why it happens.

 

[Rapidash]

Aren't the majority of Valley lines services and Devon metro services over an hour long, end to end?

I think Pacers are acceptable for lines that have a stop every few minutes, or services that have a big interchange/focus station (people doing short journeys, not end to end ones), i.e. Exeter St Davids, maybe metro lines around Bristol and Cardiff. They are well suited to the Exmouth line, okay for the Paignton stoppers. Slightly more questionable for Barnstaple but as the current diagrams interlock with other Exmouth and Paignton services, you can see why it happens.

I'd agree with that, as the flows tends to be towards Newton Abbot and St Davids/Central. Trouble is the Pacers are already pretty full before getting to Newton Abbot, the numbers heading to Plymouth are replaced and outnumbered by the Central travellers. Gets a bit cramped!

Less of an issue with the 150's, though, those extra carriage meters and better standing spaces help.

Sadly, I suspect now the GW sparkification is getting later and later, the Turbo induced cascade of 150/158's to here are going to be a even more distant pipedream. Here's hoping the 143's give up the ghost just yet!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Aren't the majority of Valley lines services and Devon metro services over an hour long, end to end?

I think Pacers are acceptable for lines that have a stop every few minutes, or services that have a big interchange/focus station (people doing short journeys, not end to end ones)

The ValleyLines services do tend to link up across Cardiff, but as you say very few will be doing end-to-end journeys and it's about 1hr from most valleys termini to Cardiff.

 

[northwichcat]

Porterbrook have done a new brochure for their 144e: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/144Brochure.pdf

Looks like it'll have 76 seats in 2+2 formation, 2 odd seats near the middle door (which are 387 style seats) and up to 12 longitudinal bench seats but only 3 guaranteed to be available as the others can only be used if the bike/wheelchair space isn't required.

So the seated capacity will be 81 if the wheelchair and bike spaces are needed and 90 if neither are needed.

 

[47802]

Porterbrook have done a new brochure for their 144e: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/144Brochure.pdf

Looks like it'll have 76 seats in 2+2 formation, 2 odd seats near the middle door (which are 387 style seats) and up to 12 longitudinal bench seats but 3 guaranteed to be available as the others can only be used if the bike/wheelchair space isn't required.

So the seated capacity will be 81 if the wheelchair and bike spaces are needed and 90 if neither are needed.

Well they don't look too bad really but unless there is major back pedal by the next government regarding Northern I don't see a use for them, maybe wales depending on the welsh valley electrification timescale.

I suppose they could be contemplated for EMT as an alternate for their single car 153's but considering that franchise doesn't have any Railbuses to introduce them probably wouldn't go down very well.

Then of course would Dft allow TPX to nick some 16x from FGW which would seem unlikely given the recent direct award cascade plans and the statements made in the ITT about taking stock from other franchises.

But then with a new Government in town I suspect anything is possible

 

[northwichcat]

I suppose they could be contemplated for EMT as an alternate for their single car 153's but considering that franchise doesn't have any Railbuses to introduce them probably wouldn't go down very well.

I think there could be a use there. Crewe-Derby currently has too many passengers for 153s but apparently operating a 156 on those services isn't affordable. A 144 is somewhere between the two. As the EMT franchise comes up for renewal after the next election I imagine DfT will want to be less generous than they've been with Northern and FGW.

 

[Qwerty133]

I think there could be a use there. Crewe-Derby currently has too many passengers for 153s but apparently operating a 156 on those services isn't affordable. A 144 is somewhere between the two. As the EMT franchise comes up for renewal after the next election I imagine DfT will want to be less generous than they've been with Northern and FGW.

The problem would be that the EMT local fleet needs to be totally transferable between routes. Pacers to Skeggy would be unsuitable due to journey times, and IIRC they're banned from the Matlock branch.
Also are you sure a 156 is not currently too expensive in the way of 'if we use a 156 here we'lol need to put a 153 on an even busier service'

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The new brochure looks reasonable, the interior seems to look more modern (though CGI renders always will, compared to reality!). That hideous paint job on the front end is awful though, it looks like they asked a 5 year old to colour it in with all that purple invading the yellow warning panel.

 

[47802]

I think there could be a use there. Crewe-Derby currently has too many passengers for 153s but apparently operating a 156 on those services isn't affordable. A 144 is somewhere between the two. As the EMT franchise comes up for renewal after the next election I imagine DfT will want to be less generous than they've been with Northern and FGW.

Well I suppose one of the problems for the new EMT franchise will be that the new Northern Franchise will have likely hovered up all available spare 15x and 170x.

Oh I'm sure somebody will be along soon to complain about 387 style seats

 

[northwichcat]

Also are you sure a 156 is not currently too expensive in the way of 'if we use a 156 here we'lol need to put a 153 on an even busier service'

Network Rail East Midlands Route Study

Derby – Stoke-on-Trent – Crewe services
This service is currently hourly and is operated mostly by one vehicle
diesel multiple units with a few two vehicle units. The heaviest
loadings are between Derby and Stoke-on-Trent in the peak periods.
Forecast loadings for 2023 suggest that a number of the onevehicle
services would need lengthening to two vehicles to meet
crowding standards (option EM028.1). Although this option would
not require any platform lengthening, analysis has shown it to
represent poor value for money.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(though CGI renders always will, compared to reality!).

The windows look to be the same style as at present but I doubt they can get the existing ones looking as good as the CGI. They will of course have the frosted over window where the toilet currently is to replace.

 

[ess]

Did people hate the Pacers when they were introduced, or was it afterwards? Did they replace knackered previous trains which people also hated?

 

[northwichcat]

Did people hate the Pacers when they were introduced, or was it afterwards? Did they replace knackered previous trains which people also hated?

Lines like the Penistone Line had Pacers from new. They originally had 141s, which got upgraded to 142s and 144s, so 144s are an improvement on the Pacers that previously operated on the line nevermind non-Pacers.

Lines like the Southport line, Mid-Cheshire line and Calder Vale line enjoyed services operated almost exclusively by Sprinters* in the early 1990s and Pacers got introduced on to the lines more recently, so there's a feeling from certain lines the rolling stock got downgraded to Pacers. (A bit like the feeling in the South West when they got 142s on a temporary basis.)

* With an odd 10x working thrown in for good measure.