Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)

[northwichcat]

Rail magazine has a different design for internal seating shown than the Porterbrook leaflet. It appears the lounge style seating, overhead handbars and luggage rack won't be added now.
Also the toilet is now near the drivers cab in one car and can retain waste for 4 days.

So basically the Porterbrook brochure was idea 1 for accessibility and they've implemented idea 2 which they hadn't made as public as idea 1.

 

[TEW]

Having the toilet near the cab gets round the gangway issue. The disabled space and toilet can be in the same carriage so no need for a new compliant gangway to be fitted.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Or just run them in pairs (as time passes, ticketing is increasingly coming off the train with more and more comprehensive TVMs, and my view is that Northern will eventually go for a Penalty Fares system except a few very rural lines). But as others have said, 153s will become 155s again, and these will replace 153s.

Neil

True, but the idea I had would be to rebuild them as a single four car unit so that you can walk from one end to the other without having to alight and reboard onto the other attaches unit.

 

[yorksrob]

Rail magazine has a different design for internal seating shown than the Porterbrook leaflet. It appears the lounge style seating, overhead handbars and luggage rack won't be added now.
Also the toilet is now near the drivers cab in one car and can retain waste for 4 days.

What do they mean by "lounge" style seating ?

I hope they're keeping the overhead luggage racks. One of the things that makes the 144's better than the 142's is the presence of adequate overhead luggage racks.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

An average of 10 is probably an underestimate. There's plenty of buses from the early 00s still in daily service and even some as old as Pacers and 150s used occasionally on school contracts even if not in regular use.

Operators like First and Arriva tend to hang on to buses as long as they can keep them in service for, while Stagecoach tend to sell off older buses which then get taken on by other operators.

If operators have an unreliable bus in their fleet then it tends to get canabilised.

plus the Bus fleet as awhole has been through the accessibility related cull by and large , if you look at the age of busses in service prior to the push for everything being low floor ...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

What do they mean by "lounge" style seating ?

I hope they're keeping the overhead luggage racks. One of the things that makes the 144's better than the 142's is the presence of adequate overhead luggage racks.

Rail magazine was quite specific on the overhead luggage racks not being put back sorry. By lounge seating I was refering to the curved continous bench with no divide between seats that was to increase standing space and have luggage throw behind and allow prams too.
But the leaflet was a work of fiction looking at what this magazine says.
The seats look like TPE 185 seating.

 

[yorksrob]

Rail magazine was quite specific on the overhead luggage racks not being put back sorry. By lounge seating I was refering to the curved continous bench with no divide between seats that was to increase standing space and have luggage throw behind and allow prams too.
But the leaflet was a work of fiction looking at what this magazine says.

That's probably a good thing by the sounds of it.

What on earth would possess them not to put the luggage racks back in ? Lunacy.

 

[Andyh82]

plus the Bus fleet as awhole has been through the accessibility related cull by and large , if you look at the age of busses in service prior to the push for everything being low floor ...

When First West Yorkshire were still getting rid of Leyland Atlanteans, they were pushing 20-23 years old. Now though it's generally buses of R, S reg etc which are being pushed out by new buses, these being 17 years old. Some being the earliest examples of low floor buses delivered in the late 90.

 

[WatcherZero]

That's probably a good thing by the sounds of it.

What on earth would possess them not to put the luggage racks back in ? Lunacy.

They think their too small to be useful and removing them makes the carriage look bigger and airier.

 

[yorksrob]

They think their too small to be useful and removing them makes the carriage look bigger and airier.

Who are these people. Do they ever use trains ?

The racks on 144's are better than most modern trains (Electrostars, for example).

It seems like the same mentality that removes all the seating from the platforms.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Who are these people. Do they ever use trains ?

The racks on 144's are better than most modern trains (Electrostars, for example).

It seems like the same mentality that removes all the seating from the platforms.

I also think it's a mistake.
There's a small luggage rack at seat level near a bike and folding seats section, but only in the car with no toilet.
The magazine also says 78 seats, 25.5sqm standing space, CCTV, Passenger info system, 2 wheelchair spaces near toilet, seats have grab handles, wifi, no power socket, the bike bit is combined luggage storage it says.
They say this 144evolution costs £350,000.

 

[jon0844]

Who are these people. Do they ever use trains ?

The racks on 144's are better than most modern trains (Electrostars, for example).

It seems like the same mentality that removes all the seating from the platforms.

Clearly the idea is to put bags, coats and newspapers on seats or in the aisles instead. Far more sensible.

 

[northwichcat]

With limited luggage space it could make even the 3 car 144s unsuitable for rural lines which have a major town/city at either end. On the Penistone Line, for instance, you could have a couple of cyclists on board and quite a few students with suitcases.

Northern have removed the overhead luggage racks from one side on the ex-ATN 142s but have retained them on the other side, I don't know why they did this - maybe some were in bad condition and they removed them rather than replacing them.

 

[Topgun333]

More info published in Rail Technology.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...020-on-track-for-april-launch-?dm_t=0,0,0,0,0

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

More info published in Rail Technology.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...020-on-track-for-april-launch-?dm_t=0,0,0,0,0

The internal shots are from the leaflet Porterbrook released.
Rail Magazine issue 768 shows a different design.

 

[47802]

Message from Porterbrook this morning

Right lads and lasses, forget that, lets get the plan rolling for an AC class 442 that can also be push pull loco hauled

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, it does very much appear that Pacers are off the menu, for now at least...

Neil

 

[daniel3982]

The end of the Pacer is nigh.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The end of the Pacer is nigh.

On what basis is that being said?

 

[Clip]

More info published in Rail Technology.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...020-on-track-for-april-launch-?dm_t=0,0,0,0,0

Wow that's impressive if it comes out like that.

 

[jopsuk]

Northern to get rid of theirs by 2020. Unless it gets canned, Valleys electrification will get rid of most (all?) of the Welsh ones. Thames Turbos to go west following Crossrail which will displace the 143s from the Devon Metro. I'd highly suspect following this that the next Great Western and Welsh franchises will require them to be scrapped if they haven't already been.

 

[Brian Aylott]

Yeah, it does very much appear that Pacers are off the menu, for now at least...

Neil

It was the Welsh Assembly that Porterbrook spoke to in an attempt to get their 143s refurbished - on the basis that the Valleys electrification was likely to be delayed
They also suggested to get value out of the refurbished 143s perhaps electrification should be further delayed
Whilst the plan is that Northern will get rid of their Pacers, presumably Wales could get the 144s from Northern (and 143s from GW) and finish up with more Pacers than now!
Brian

 

[ainsworth74]

On what basis is that being said?

The end of Pacers on Northern certainly appears to be approaching:

From the Northern ITT:

3.6.1 Table 3.2 lists the events which will trigger the automatic elimination of a Bidder from the bidding process (and for the avoidance of doubt subsection 3.5.8 will apply).

Table 3.2. Elimination events:

A Bidder uses MOIRA 2, its component parts or intermediate outputs for modelling revenue impacts, timetable changes, crowding or any other purpose – see subsection 3.14 (MOIRA 2).

A Bidder submits Financial Templates which do not conform with the structure as set out in the latest iteration of the templates provided or specified by the Department – see subsection 6.3.6.2.

A Bidder is projected in its Risk Adjusted Financial Model to breach the 1.05:1 Financial Ratios (after taking into account any Materiailty Threshold) at any point during the Minimum Financial Robustness Period – see subsection 7.6 (Evaluation of Financial Robustness).

A Bidder’s rolling stock plans include the use of vehicles without bogies after 31 December 2019.

If a bid is submitted containing a plan to use vehicles without bogies then they'll be automatically eliminated from the competition.

I would ask that further discussion of the ITT and its impacts on the future of Northern Rail be conducted on the existing thread here. This thread should now return to discussing Porterbrook's ePacer (whatever its future may be).

 

[Gareth Marston]

It was the Welsh Assembly that Porterbrook spoke to in an attempt to get their 143s refurbished - on the basis that the Valleys electrification was likely to be delayed
They also suggested to get value out of the refurbished 143s perhaps electrification should be further delayed
Whilst the plan is that Northern will get rid of their Pacers, presumably Wales could get the 144s from Northern (and 143s from GW) and finish up with more Pacers than now!
Brian

There will be a huge hissy fit from Valleys politicians if they don't get brand new EMU's let alone giving them DMU cast offs from the north of England there not even from the south of England! Political non starter.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The end of Pacers on Northern certainly appears to be approaching:

From the Northern ITT:



If a bid is submitted containing a plan to use vehicles without bogies then they'll be automatically eliminated from the competition.

I would ask that further discussion of the ITT and its impacts on the future of Northern Rail be conducted on the existing thread here. This thread should now return to discussing Porterbrook's ePacer (whatever its future may be).

That certainly sounds like no Pacers for Northern (I've not had a detailed look), but doesn't stop other franchises taking on Porterbrook's improved Pacers.

There will be a huge hissy fit from Valleys politicians if they don't get brand new EMU's let alone giving them DMU cast offs from the north of England there not even from the south of England! Political non starter.

The Valleys electrification will presumably happen, but with both north-west and GW electrification slipping behind schedule there may be a need for 144s and/or 143s to either be refurbished to comply with TSI-PRM or given a derrogation as a stop-gap until the valleys electrification programme is complete. Maybe a promise of brand-new (or at least modern, such as 377s, cascaded from elsewhere) EMUs rather than class 31x units for the valleys when the wires are finally up will compensate for short-term Pacer use.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That certainly sounds like no Pacers for Northern (I've not had a detailed look), but doesn't stop other franchises taking on Porterbrook's improved Pacers.

The Valleys electrification will presumably happen, but with both north-west and GW electrification slipping behind schedule there may be a need for 144s and/or 143s to either be refurbished to comply with TSI-PRM or given a derrogation as a stop-gap until the valleys electrification programme is complete. Maybe a promise of brand-new (or at least modern, such as 377s, cascaded from elsewhere) EMUs rather than class 31x units for the valleys when the wires are finally up will compensate for short-term Pacer use.

With DFt specifying bogies in the ITT for Northern I can't see any stakeholders accepting non bogies elsewhere. The die has been cast. Even as a DDA compliant stop gap the ROSCO's are not going to invest £ for something' that will be scrapped.

 

[infobleep]

Will any pacers be preserved?

 

[D6975]

Will any pacers be preserved?

May I suggest preserving them in brine?

 

[WatcherZero]

I asked Tony about Porterbrook response yesterday and he said Porterbrook were going to cancel the trial conversion unless they received assurances over FGW and Welsh franchises.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will any pacers be preserved?

As baked bean cans