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General Election 2015 - Thoughts/Predictions/Results

How are you voting in the General Election

  • Conservative

    Votes: 25 18.0%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 15 10.8%
  • Labour

    Votes: 45 32.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 16 11.5%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 2.2%
  • Scottish National Party

    Votes: 9 6.5%
  • UK Independence Party

    Votes: 13 9.4%
  • Other: Right Leaning Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other: Left Leaning Party

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Other: Centrist Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other: Other

    Votes: 2 1.4%
  • Not Voting

    Votes: 7 5.0%
  • Spoiling Ballot

    Votes: 3 2.2%

  • Total voters
    139
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table38

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Absolute nonsense. No one dies in a cupboard. If so, why didn't you tell the Daily Mail ?

Well thanks for your sympathy. Excuse me for not taking pictures at a very distressing time, not just for me but the rest of my family. I sincerely hope you never have to go through anything like that.

I'm sick of idelogically-driven people slagging off the hard-working staff who toil away in the NHS in difficult circumstances.

Me too. I never had any problem with any of the hard-working Nursing Staff. I did ask to see the "hard-working" Bed Manager, but apparently he only worked 2 days a week.
 
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Manchester77

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prove Labour did a bloomin' good job with the NHS...

A party that embraced the awful PFI deals as much as New Labour didn't do that good of a job with the NHS. None of the main three parties have actual solutions for the NHS because they don't tackle one of the biggest issues with the NHS (something that only England has been lumbered with) is the internal market which costs us over £10bn per year now. Until the marketised NHS is destroyed we cannot have high quality patient care because money will always be being wasted on layer of management to deal with tendering, buying services and accountants. The regional boards used in Scotland and by England until the 1990 NHS & Community Care Act worked perfectly well, a model we should definitely go back to. Not our current non-regional fragmented system of CCGs which allow people to fall through the cracks.
 

Oswyntail

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Labour were a force for good, as the report I provided showed.
Sadly the report gives the impression of having been written to demonstrate that point.
It is hard to think of a Labour administration that has left the economy in a healthier state than when it took the reins.
I'm sick of idelogically-driven people slagging off the hard-working staff who toil away in the NHS in difficult circumstances.
I don't think anyone actually does that. In fact quite the opposite - it is a political cliche that staff are saints, to the extent that they are almost uncriticisable
The NHS has always been a political football - your friends in the Conservatives have kicked it to death over the past 5 years.
In fact, it is usually the Government who say that the NHS is improving (and rightly so, in most areas, despite the scare stories). It is the opposition that put about the stories that it is failing, been "kicked to death", implying, at least in part, that the staff are failing. Try watching the innumerable grillings of NHS leaders by select committees over the last year if you want to understand fully what the current strengths, weaknesses, successes and, yes, failures are - not the ill-informed blather of the media or political spoutings from the opposition.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Did we really need more managers than Doctors and Nurses? Was that value for money?

This one is repeated so often it is becoming tiresome! Have you the evidence for this? I really would be interested to know who you think these 'Managers' are. From my experience in the NHS, they were - mostly - people employed to carry out administrative functions, often caused by the ridiculous nature of the 'market'. You wish to make a complaint about NHS services? Great,,,,but then there has to be a whole department dealing with those complaints (very time consuming)...and then there's negotiations with local authorities about who pays for care because there is no joined up service and everyone protects their budgets, I could go on and on and on, but the people employed in these (often low paid) functions are not Managers as we think of the meaning of the term. Oh, and in my experience, some of the worst managers I ever saw were from the Medical profession....I was labelled a Manager, by the way, because I managed Nurses, but I was also a Nurse.
 

table38

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Have you the evidence for this?

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/mar/25/nhs-management-numbers-frontline-staff

The number of managers in the NHS in England rose by nearly 12% last year [2009] - more than five times the rate at which qualified nurses were recruited, sparking concerns that cash was being diverted from frontline staff.

Despite claims that NHS bureaucracy has been cut the health service has seen an explosive growth in management. The survey shows that the NHS now employs 44,660 managers and senior managers - an annual average increase in their employment of 6.3% over the last decade. This is faster growth than consultants, doctors, nurses and midwives.
 

Trog

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Absolute nonsense. No one dies in a cupboard. If so, why didn't you tell the Daily Mail ?

I'm sick of idelogically-driven people slagging off the hard-working staff who toil away in the NHS in difficult circumstances. The NHS has always been a political football - your friends in the Conservatives have kicked it to death over the past 5 years.


I can believe it my wife was treated so badly by the NHS that she said she would rather die than go back to the hospital. A friend once visited his mother in hospital to find her down the side of her bed wedged between the bed and a radiator. She had been there for hours but it was not the nurses job to get her out. The sooner some NHS staff are given a good kicking the better as far as I am concerned. Although in fairness I must say I have always been treated OK, but then you don't tend to bully a 16 stone bloke in steel toe cap boots.
 

muddythefish

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In fact, it is usually the Government who say that the NHS is improving (and rightly so, in most areas, despite the scare stories). It is the opposition that put about the stories that it is failing, been "kicked to death", implying, at least in part, that the staff are failing. Try watching the innumerable grillings of NHS leaders by select committees over the last year if you want to understand fully what the current strengths, weaknesses, successes and, yes, failures are - not the ill-informed blather of the media or political spoutings from the opposition.

Tories admit NHS failings. Sorry to disappoint you

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4234883.ece
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The sooner some NHS staff are given a good kicking the better as far as I am concerned. .

Lovely
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well thanks for your sympathy. Excuse me for not taking pictures at a very distressing time, .

No one "dies in a cupboard". You're making it up.
 
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dcsprior

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If you're on the side of history look who always leaves the country's infrastructure in a disgraceful state and has to be rebuilt because of their neglect.

Labour's achievements 1997-2010

1. A rising National Minimum Wage - the annual uprating benefits 1 million people a year.

[...]

14. The New Deal has helped over 2 million people into work

[...]

21. More young people attending university than ever before

[...]

25. The Northern Ireland peace process

[...]

35. Equalised the age of consent and repealed Section 28.

36. Through the introduction of civil partnerships, Labour has for the first time given legal recognition to same-sex partners. Gay couples now have the same inheritance, pension and next-of-kin rights as married couples.

[...]

You've posted a very extensive list - some thoughts on it:
1 - one of the best achievements of the last Labour government, which they should be proud of.
14 - considering its name, this was a let down. Some years after this program was the late-2000s recession which presented an opportunity to do something befitting this name: large-scale government investment (perhaps a new generation of council house building) to get money into the economy from the bottom up, rather than the top down.
21 - True. However as part of this, they were the party to move away from the point of principle that education should be free
25 - This was a process, rather than something achieved by one particular government - for instance, The Good Friday Agreement was signed by John Major.
35 & 36 - both were significant and brave achievements. However it could be argued that the introduction of equal marriage (by the Tories / Lib Dems, and by the SNP north of the border) has surpassed this.

We could have a whole new thread on the NHS. Suffice to say, my Dad spent the last night of his life on a trolley in a cupboard in A&E, so forgive me if I don't share your rosy picture of the NHS under Labour.
Absolute nonsense. No one dies in a cupboard. If so, why didn't you tell the Daily Mail ?
muddythefish I suspect that I am closer to you politically than table38 - but how can I agree with you when you call someone's description of their parent's death "absolute nonsense"?
 

St Rollox

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650
No 25, Prime Minister John Major did a lot of work regarding the Peace Process.

Could some of the Labour supporters explain why they stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories during the referendum rather than run their own No campaign.
Was it because the Tories coughed up the money for Better Together.
And why did they demonise their own voters (like me) to the point i wouldn't vote for them ever again.
And why did the Labour Party bother for the first time in 40 years send me a Christmas Card.
40 years and from a chap who follows the Islamic faith!!!
 

Tetchytyke

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We could have a whole new thread on the NHS. Suffice to say, my Dad spent the last night of his life on a trolley in a cupboard in A&E, so forgive me if I don't share your rosy picture of the NHS under Labour.

I didn't say rosy. I said it was working far better under Labour- a "bloomin' good job"- compared to what we have now. At least I could get an appointment with my GP under Labour. As for people dying in cupboards, I'm sure it does happen, and given the waiting times in A&E are now well in excess of four hours I'm sure it happens more now than it did ten years ago. It was a big thing in the mid-90s, I wonder who were in power then?

Although I would point out that data is not the plural of anecdote.

Anyway Milibands comments about "weaponizing" the NHS gives the game away and shows that he sees the NHS as a political football. The sick, vunerable and even the staff who work in the NHS are just cannon fodder for Mlibands ideological crusade :(

Source?

The NHS is one of the few things that majority of the electorate care about, it is going to be a big debate in the election campaign. I know the Tories are trying to claim he's turning it into a "political football", but that's because they know the extent of the anger about what they have done to it. The "reforms"- increased marketisation that nobody wanted and the Tories bodged- were not in their manifesto. They know that Miliband will achieve a lot if he can tap into that anger, so they choose to attack him as some communist. It'd be pathetic if it weren't lapped up by so many.

Oswyntail said:
Did you read what I wrote? [I don't know where your link would have taken me as it went to 404] Of course, in any large organisation there are failures, but the truth about the NHS is a lot less bleak than the opposition make out.

Well of course it isn't, the Opposition in an election year aren't going to say the Tories did some good, just as the Tories aren't going to admit their ideological "reforms" were a waste of billions of taxpayers money.

In any large organisation there are failures, but the problem within the NHS now is fragmentation and short-termism.

The commissioners don't know what they are doing- they're doctors not procurement specialists- and are not accountable to anyone, completely reliant on private sector lobbyists independent consultants like McKinsey, yet they control the budget and the future of services rests in their hands. In my partner's service they are now only issuing 12-month contracts to new staff because the service cannot rely on funding anymore; they know that if a private company wants the contract the commissioners will have their heads turned by McKinsey and the funding will be gone. There can be no future planning in the service because they don't know if they will actually have any service in 24 months.

The staff on the ground have seen their pay frozen- despite the independent pay review saying they should get an increase- and have lost much of their job security. The good and experienced staff are leaving and the rest are seriously demoralised. We're back to how we were in 1996; I wonder who was in charge then too?
 
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Oswyntail

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....
The commissioners don't know what they are doing- they're doctors not procurement specialists- and are not accountable to anyone, completely reliant on private sector lobbyists independent consultants like McKinsey, yet they control the budget and the future of services rests in their hands. ...
If that is the case in your area, I am very sorry. My local CCG seems to be very much the opposite. Yes, they are primarily doctors but, as across the country, they were demanding to be put in charge of commissioning and have grasped the opportunity. They are also held to account by NHS England and the other relevant bodies. As last week's report actually said (though it was reported with a totally negative bias) the first year of the reforms led to an inevitable loss of standards, but since then there have been improvements across the country.
 

Tetchytyke

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As last week's report actually said (though it was reported with a totally negative bias) the first year of the reforms led to an inevitable loss of standards, but since then there have been improvements across the country.

That's not how the BMA are reporting on it...

http://bma.org.uk/news-views-analys...commissioning-role-under-pressure-says-report

They are also held to account by NHS England

Nope, it's Monitor.

This is the same Monitor who recently argued that private providers shouldn't have to pay corporation tax on their profits because it was "unfair" for them to do so, as public hospitals do not (not that NHS trusts make profit, but hey, that's a minor detail).

Maybe I'm an old cynic, but I'm not entirely convinced Monitor have taxpayers' best interests at heart here...
 

WelshBluebird

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Fixed that for you!

But then when GDP began to fall in 2008, Labour just blundered on regardless and started borrowing even more, which meant when the crash came (the crash Brown thought would never happen because he'd abolished boom and bust), Labour were still borrowing and spending. Other countries had been putting money away for a rainy day so fared a lot better than we did.

Who is to say what the Tories might have done in 2008, given they weren't wedded to Labours dogma of tax and spend :)

net-borrowing-96-12-500x363.png

The next three years, which would take us to the next election anyway (2010). So I don't see what difference that makes. At the end of the day the ring wing love to blame Labour for spending so much, but the Tories would have done the same.

Oh, and yes Labour carried on borrowing. You know why there is that large spike in 2008 on your graph - money was needed to bail out the banks. Something the Tories would have also done (for exactly the same reason Labour did it - because they wouldn't let their friends in the city fail).

Of course I am not saying Labour were not partly to blame. But so are the Tories (much of the stuff that was allowed to go on in the city was down to the deregulation of the banks which we can thank the Tories for), and I really doubt it would have been much or any different had we had a blue government instead of a red one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Except that most of the bail out was in the form of guarantees and liabilities. The actual "cash" is estimated at around £123.93bn.

So let's look at my helpful graph again... there's at least an extra £200bn of borrowing... which tends to support my argument that Labour were borrowing to maintain their reckless spending.

I don't have time to look into the figures.
But your graph seems to show an increase of around £120bn in borrowing between 2007/2008 and 2009/2010. Which is funnily enough around the figure you claim the cash bailout to be. Now as I said I don't have the time to look into the figures properly, but those figures are not too much of a surprise to me. Especially when you look at how borrowing stayed fairly constant from 2002/2003 to 2007/2008.
 
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Oswyntail

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That's not how the BMA are reporting on it...
Which is exactly the spin you would expect from the Doctors' Trade Union.

Nope, it's Monitor.
Love your selective quote! That's why I added "and other relevant bodies".

Maybe I'm an old cynic, but I'm not entirely convinced Monitor have taxpayers' best interests at heart here...
IIRC, as it was reported in sources other than the Guardian, the tax question was highlighted as something to consider, rather than a proposal as such. And, yes -
I think you are something of an old cynic in this respect.:D
 

Tetchytyke

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Which is exactly the spin you would expect from the Doctors' Trade Union.

If doctors truly wanted it, the doctors' trade union would want it.

Love your selective quote! That's why I added "and other relevant bodies".

Not being deceitful, just NHS England do not have oversight as to what happens with the CCGs. It is entirely Monitor. NHS England is merely a commissioning body for things outside the remit of the CCGs.

IIRC, as it was reported in sources other than the Guardian, the tax question was highlighted as something to consider, rather than a proposal as such. And, yes -
I think you are something of an old cynic in this respect.:D

I read it in the Torygraph as a consideration. Now nobody ever puts a "consideration" out in public unless they're seriously testing the water. The fact they were seriously considering that paying tax on profit is "unfair" speaks wonders about the mindset of Monitor.

Not that I'm exactly surprised that the organisation set up to enforce marketisation of the NHS is worried about the poor diddumses at Circle Health's tax bill.
 
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table38

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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/12/labour-refuses-confirm-miliband-weaponise-nhs-election-campaign
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't have time to look into the figures.
But your graph seems to show an increase of around £120bn in borrowing between 2007/2008 and 2009/2010. Which is funnily enough around the figure you claim the cash bailout to be. Now as I said I don't have the time to look into the figures properly, but those figures are not too much of a surprise to me. Especially when you look at how borrowing stayed fairly constant from 2002/2003 to 2007/2008.

I still reckon there's about £75bn unaccounted for (see post 355 above) that's over and above the more-or-less steady borrowing up to 2008.

But I might be wrong - I was educated under a Labour government :)
 

Oswyntail

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...
Not being deceitful, just NHS England do not have oversight as to what happens with the CCGs. It is entirely Monitor. NHS England is merely a commissioning body for things outside the remit of the CCGs.....
To be perfectly honest, I was having one of my increasing number of senior moments and had forgotten what Monitor was called.:oops:
 

Tetchytyke

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All that proves is that Nick Robinson- who, let's remember, was the Conservative Association president whilst he was at Oxford- says Miliband talked about "weaponising" the NHS.

Maybe Robinson, recently photographed lending his support to Britain First only to claim "he didn't know who they were", is telling the truth, who can tell.

Oswyntail said:
To be perfectly honest, I was having one of my increasing number of senior moments and had forgotten what Monitor was called.

:lol:

I know the point you were making!
 

table38

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All that proves is that Nick Robinson- who, let's remember, was the Conservative Association president whilst he was at Oxford- says Miliband talked about "weaponising" the NHS.

Always nice to see the usual Labour approach of attacking the messenger rather than the message, but why doesn't Miliband just deny it then? He was on Marr the other day wriggling whilst Marr asked him six or seven times if he did say it and he wouldn't deny it.

Why ever not? Could it possibly be that he knows he did say it, and is worried if he denies it there'll be an inconvenient recording somewhere?
 

Tetchytyke

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Always nice to see the usual Labour approach of attacking the messenger rather than the message, but why doesn't Miliband just deny it then?

Who knows, who cares, I'm many things but "Labour" is not one of them. I've never voted for them in my life and I'm unlikely to start now.

Point is that Nick Robinson saying something doesn't make it true.

The NHS is going to be a political battle-ground, yet it is an area where the Conservatives are traditionally perceived to be weak. It would suit the Conservatives to make any criticism of their failed reforms look "ideological", thereby avoiding any debate on the subject, and Robinson is a devout Conservative supporter.
 
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table38

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Who cares? Maybe the vulnerable who rely on the NHS? Those who work in the NHS trying to do their best and make a difference? Tax payers seeing their money disappearing into a bottomless pit with no discernable improvements?

So instead of this all dragging on, why won't Miliband just deny it instead of squirming and wriggling any time he is asked?
 

Tetchytyke

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I couldn't care less if Miliband said it or not- I find it more concerning that the Conservative-supporting BBC political editor thinks it ok to repeat off-the-record conversations for political reasons (so much for BBC impartiality!)- and I really don't see how it affects the "vulnerable" or the "taxpayers".

It is nothing more than an attempt to shut down the debate- it's "ideology" rather than criticism- rather than engaging with it. Perhaps it might be better for the "taxpayers" if the Conservatives chose to explain why their reforms are successful rather than breaking confidence.

The fact the Conservatives are making it an issue shows that they are running scared from the debate. Why? They know the NHS is, and always has been, their biggest weakness.
 
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table38

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Because people need to know if Miliband really cares about the NHS or has slipped up and shown his true colours and is just using the NHS, it's patients and staff as a political football to further his ambitions.

Miliband should have known better - for a politician, nothing is off the record, especially in front of the press. If Miliband hasn't realised that by now, he'll be a big liability if he ever does get to be PM.

No wonder the Tories cheer him so loudly PMQs - they think Milliband is the biggest asset they have :)
 
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