General Election 2015 - Thoughts/Predictions/Results

[Oswyntail]

Good try - those photos were for the World Cup.

And...? He was still courting the right-wing press.

The FSA I believe, not the government.

As the chancellor had, with his usual attention to consequences, given up any government oversight to a badly thought out, poorly constituted body filled with the people it was meant to be monitoring. That succeeded much as predicted at the time - IE, it didn't.

The fact that the US, which has made no serious deficit reductions, has suffered almost the smallest recession of any major developed economy whereas Ireland and Greece have suffered the worst because .......

Possibly because the USA, perhaps uniquely among nations on the planet, has sufficient diversity, manpower and raw materials directly available to it to weather any recession. Whereas most countries, like the UK, are deficient in at least one of these. Greece, for instance, is particularly vulnerable, because it has few natural resources, its chief industry is agriculture, but of limited crops (citrus fruits and olives chiefly), and the other three main planks of its economy (tourism, shipping, petrochemicals) are all highly vulnerable to recession.

 

[muddythefish]

Damn, I must have missed that 2011 World Cup



If only. Brown had set up an incomprehensible tripartite system with not just the FSA, but also the Bank of England and the Treasury responsible, but due to "an inadequate definition of roles and responsibilities at all three constituent parts of the system" no-one really knew who was responsible for what.

The obvious outcome was that there was next to no regulation, which each of the three blaming each other.

When he was in opposition Cameron accused Labour of over-regulating the City so he must have been delighted at that outcome.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And...? He was still courting the right-wing press.

.

Reporter/photographer sticks newspaper in Miliband's hand and takes a few opportunistic snaps beforer the World Cup. Hardly in the Blair league of dinner parties with Murdoch though was it ?

 

[table38]

When he was in opposition Cameron accused Labour of over-regulating the City so he must have been delighted at that outcome.

Err, except that there's a massive difference between "over-regulated" and "no regulation at all" which is what we ended up with under Brown.

Why do Labour always think that nothing that happened between 1997 and 2010 was their responsibility?

Blair tried to distance himself from the failures of Wilson, Callaghan, Foot and Kinnock by rebranding Labour as "New Labour". Maybe Miliband should try "New New Labour"

Reporter/photographer sticks newspaper in Miliband's hand and takes a few opportunistic snaps beforer the World Cup. Hardly in the Blair league of dinner parties with Murdoch though was it ?

If so, you might have hoped after the first three times, he'd have wised up

 

[muddythefish]

Err, except that there's a massive difference between "over-regulated" and "no regulation at all" which is what we ended up with under Brown.

Why do Labour always think that nothing that happened between 1997 and 2010 was their responsibility?

Blair tried to distance himself from the failures of Wilson, Callaghan, Foot and Kinnock by rebranding Labour as "New Labour". Maybe Miliband should try "New New Labour"



If so, you might have hoped after the first three times, he'd have wised up

Of course there was regulation; to say there was no regulation at all is silly. The point is, the Tories still complained about Brown's light-touch regulation

Why do the Tories think the world began in 1997. How about their failures of 1979 - 1997 ?

Blair sought to create a modern centre left party which he succeeded in spectacular fashion with 3 successive election victories.

 

[21C101]

Of course there was regulation; to say there was no regulation at all is silly. The point is, the Tories still complained about Brown's light-touch regulation

Why do the Tories think the world began in 1997. How about their failures of 1979 - 1997 ?

Blair sought to create a modern centre left party which he succeeded in spectacular fashion with 3 successive election victories.

Yeah whatever, but this thread is about what will actually happen at the election not cheerleading for ones favoured party.

Even if you manage somehow to convince all the forum readers that Labour are the angelic ideal future government and the Tories are all wicked dragons it won't make a damn bit of difference to the outcome of this election.

 

[table38]

Of course there was regulation; to say there was no regulation at all is silly. The point is, the Tories still complained about Brown's light-touch regulation

Oh there was regulation, plenty of it. But no-one knew who was supposed to be enforcing it, so the inevitable outcome was no regulation.

Why do the Tories think the world began in 1997. How about their failures of 1979 - 1997 ?

Maybe they were busy coping with the fallout from Wilson's 1973–75 recession and Callaghan's multi-billion pound IMF bail-out

 

[muddythefish]

Maybe they were busy coping with the fallout from Wilson's 1973–75 recession and Callaghan's multi-billion pound IMF bail-out

Or could that be there were left in the deep do-dah by the failed Heath governments while Labour from 1997-2010 had to rebuild the NHS and the country's schools (literally in many cases) after 18 years of Tory mismanagement?

Depends whose side you're on.

 

[table38]

Or could that be there were left in the deep do-dah by the failed Heath governments while Labour from 1997-2010 had to rebuild the NHS and the country's schools (literally in many cases) after 18 years of Tory mismanagement?

Depends whose side you're on.

If you are on the side of history, look at who always bankrupts the country, and who always has to sort it out

And as for building new schools and hospitals, another Labour con. They were built with PFI, so we are paying for them now, and paying a lot more than we would have had to otherwise.

Makes you wonder what we actually did get for all of Labour's extra spending, apart from an illegal war and lots of non-jobs for their mates in the public sector?

 

[muddythefish]

If you are on the side of history, look at who always bankrupts the country, and who always has to sort it out

And as for building new schools and hospitals, another Labour con. They were built with PFI, so we are paying for them now, and paying a lot more than we would have had to otherwise.

Makes you wonder what we actually did get for all of Labour's extra spending, apart from an illegal war and lots of non-jobs for their mates in the public sector?

If you're on the side of history look who always leaves the country's infrastructure in a disgraceful state and has to be rebuilt because of their neglect.

Labour's achievements 1997-2010

1. A rising National Minimum Wage - the annual uprating benefits 1 million people a year.

2. The shortest waiting times since NHS records began.

3. Three million more operations carried out each year than in 1997, with more than double the number of heart operations.

4. Over 44,000 more doctors

5. Over 89,000 more nurses

6. Over three quarters of GP practices now offer extended opening hours for at least one evening or weekend session a week.

7. All prescriptions are now free for people being treated for cancer or the effects of cancer, and teenage girls are offered a vaccination against cervical cancer.

8. The NHS can now guarantee that you will see a cancer specialist within two weeks if your GP suspects you may have cancer. Whatever your condition, you will not have to wait more than 18 weeks from GP referral to the start of hospital treatment - and most waits are much shorter than this.

9. 22 million people are benefiting from real tax cuts to boost their income this year. 10. 12 million pensioners benefiting from increased Winter Fuel Payments 11.900,000 pensioners lifted out of poverty

12. Half a million children lifted out of relative poverty and measures already in train will lift around a further 500,000 children out of poverty.

13. Free TV licences for over-75s

14. The New Deal has helped over 2 million people into work

15. Over 3 million Child Trust Funds have been started

16. Nearly 3,000 Sure Start Children's Centres opened, reaching 2 million children and their families

17. Over 42,400 more teachers and 123,000 more teaching assistants than in 1997

18. There have been approximately 3,700 rebuilt and significantly refurbished schools; including new and improved classrooms, laboratories and kitchens.

19.A free nursery place for every 3 and 4 year old.

20. Doubled the number of registered childcare places to more than 1.5 million, one for every four children under eight years old

21. More young people attending university than ever before

22. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships starts, with figures for 2008/9 showing 234,000 started an apprenticeship this year compared to 75,000 in 1997.

23.ln 1997 more than half of all schools saw less that 30% of their pupils fail to get 5 good GCSEs including English and Maths. Now only 270 schools fail this benchmark and we are guaranteeing that no school should fail this mark after 2011.

24. We have increased school funding to support the delivery of higher standards. Between 1997-98 and 2009-10, total funding per pupil has more than doubled from £3,030 in 1997-98 to £6,350 in 2009-10 in real terms, an increase of 110%

25. The Northern Ireland peace process

26. The UK is now smokefree, with no smoking in most enclosed public places. 27.The UK's greenhouse gas emissions are now 21% below 1990 levels, beating our Kyoto target.

28. Over £20 billion invested in bringing social housing to decent standards

29. Rough sleeping has dropped by two thirds and homelessness is at its lowest level since the early 1980s

30. Free off-peak travel on buses anywhere in England for over-60s and disabled people

31. Since 1997 overall crime is down 36 per cent; domestic burglary is down 54 per cent; vehicle related crime is down 57 per cent; and violent crime is down 41 per cent.

32. A new flexible points-based system to ensure only those economic migrants who have the skills our economy needs can come to work in the UK.

33. Police numbers up by 16,000 since 1997, alongside more than 16,000 Police Community Support Officers

34. Every community now has its own dedicated neighbourhood police team, easily contactable by the people who live in that community and working with them to agree local priorities and deal with people's concerns.

35. Equalised the age of consent and repealed Section 28.

36. Through the introduction of civil partnerships, Labour has for the first time given legal recognition to same-sex partners. Gay couples now have the same inheritance, pension and next-of-kin rights as married couples.

37. More than doubled Britain's overseas aid budget. UK aid helps lift an estimated 3 million people out of poverty every year

38. Cancelled up to 100 per cent of debt for the world's poorest countries

39. Britain now has more offshore wind capacity than any country in the world. Wind last year provided enough electricity to power 2 million homes

40. Launched the £1.5 billion Housing Pledge to speed up the delivery of new affordable housing and embarked on the biggest program of council house building for twenty years

41. Launched the Swimming Challenge Fund to support free swimming for over 60s and under 16s

42. Banned fox hunting.

43. Led the campaign to win the 2012 Olympics for London. Today the programme remains on time and on budget with over 40% of the construction programme completed and all major venues under construction.

44. Free admission to our national museums and galleries.

45. Devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, an elected Mayor and Assembly for London and directly-elected mayors for those cities that want them.

46. Created a new right of pedestrian access to the English coast, so that every family has the opportunity to enjoy the length and breadth of our coastline

47.ln the last 4 years Labour's work overseas has helped over 7 million people in subSaharan Africa access clean water and sanitation

48.ln Europe we signed the Social Chapter and introduced measures including: four weeks' paid holiday; a right to parental leave; extended maternity leave; a new right to request flexible working; and the same protection for part-time workers as fulltime workers.

49. We led efforts to agree a new international convention banning all cluster munitions.

50. We introduced the first ever British Armed Forces and Veterans Day to honour the achievements of our armed forces - both past and present.
Remember the Tories do not really believe in the state taking action like this. Small government which they like really means minimal government action.

 

[table38]

If you're on the side of history look who always leaves the country's infrastructure in a disgraceful state and has to be rebuilt because of their neglect.

Nice cut-n-pasted list, but it doesn't really explain where all the money went. Ban Fox hunting? How much did that cost?

No doubt Labour spent our money on their pet projects to buy votes, but I'm sure all the soldiers that Blair sent off to Iraq with substandard equipment might feel slightly neglected as well.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Small government which they like really means minimal government action.

Sounds good to me!

 

[Johnuk123]

If you're on the side of history look who always leaves the country's infrastructure in a disgraceful state and has to be rebuilt because of their neglect.

Labour's achievements 1997-2010

1. A rising National Minimum Wage - the annual uprating benefits 1 million people a year.

2. The shortest waiting times since NHS records began.

3. Three million more operations carried out each year than in 1997, with more than double the number of heart operations.

4. Over 44,000 more doctors

5. Over 89,000 more nurses

6. Over three quarters of GP practices now offer extended opening hours for at least one evening or weekend session a week.

7. All prescriptions are now free for people being treated for cancer or the effects of cancer, and teenage girls are offered a vaccination against cervical cancer.

8. The NHS can now guarantee that you will see a cancer specialist within two weeks if your GP suspects you may have cancer. Whatever your condition, you will not have to wait more than 18 weeks from GP referral to the start of hospital treatment - and most waits are much shorter than this.

9. 22 million people are benefiting from real tax cuts to boost their income this year. 10. 12 million pensioners benefiting from increased Winter Fuel Payments 11.900,000 pensioners lifted out of poverty

12. Half a million children lifted out of relative poverty and measures already in train will lift around a further 500,000 children out of poverty.

13. Free TV licences for over-75s

14. The New Deal has helped over 2 million people into work

15. Over 3 million Child Trust Funds have been started

16. Nearly 3,000 Sure Start Children's Centres opened, reaching 2 million children and their families

17. Over 42,400 more teachers and 123,000 more teaching assistants than in 1997

18. There have been approximately 3,700 rebuilt and significantly refurbished schools; including new and improved classrooms, laboratories and kitchens.

19.A free nursery place for every 3 and 4 year old.

20. Doubled the number of registered childcare places to more than 1.5 million, one for every four children under eight years old

21. More young people attending university than ever before

22. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships starts, with figures for 2008/9 showing 234,000 started an apprenticeship this year compared to 75,000 in 1997.

23.ln 1997 more than half of all schools saw less that 30% of their pupils fail to get 5 good GCSEs including English and Maths. Now only 270 schools fail this benchmark and we are guaranteeing that no school should fail this mark after 2011.

24. We have increased school funding to support the delivery of higher standards. Between 1997-98 and 2009-10, total funding per pupil has more than doubled from £3,030 in 1997-98 to £6,350 in 2009-10 in real terms, an increase of 110%

25. The Northern Ireland peace process

26. The UK is now smokefree, with no smoking in most enclosed public places. 27.The UK's greenhouse gas emissions are now 21% below 1990 levels, beating our Kyoto target.

28. Over £20 billion invested in bringing social housing to decent standards

29. Rough sleeping has dropped by two thirds and homelessness is at its lowest level since the early 1980s

30. Free off-peak travel on buses anywhere in England for over-60s and disabled people

31. Since 1997 overall crime is down 36 per cent; domestic burglary is down 54 per cent; vehicle related crime is down 57 per cent; and violent crime is down 41 per cent.

32. A new flexible points-based system to ensure only those economic migrants who have the skills our economy needs can come to work in the UK.

33. Police numbers up by 16,000 since 1997, alongside more than 16,000 Police Community Support Officers

34. Every community now has its own dedicated neighbourhood police team, easily contactable by the people who live in that community and working with them to agree local priorities and deal with people's concerns.

35. Equalised the age of consent and repealed Section 28.

36. Through the introduction of civil partnerships, Labour has for the first time given legal recognition to same-sex partners. Gay couples now have the same inheritance, pension and next-of-kin rights as married couples.

37. More than doubled Britain's overseas aid budget. UK aid helps lift an estimated 3 million people out of poverty every year

38. Cancelled up to 100 per cent of debt for the world's poorest countries

39. Britain now has more offshore wind capacity than any country in the world. Wind last year provided enough electricity to power 2 million homes

40. Launched the £1.5 billion Housing Pledge to speed up the delivery of new affordable housing and embarked on the biggest program of council house building for twenty years

41. Launched the Swimming Challenge Fund to support free swimming for over 60s and under 16s

42. Banned fox hunting.

43. Led the campaign to win the 2012 Olympics for London. Today the programme remains on time and on budget with over 40% of the construction programme completed and all major venues under construction.

44. Free admission to our national museums and galleries.

45. Devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, an elected Mayor and Assembly for London and directly-elected mayors for those cities that want them.

46. Created a new right of pedestrian access to the English coast, so that every family has the opportunity to enjoy the length and breadth of our coastline

47.ln the last 4 years Labour's work overseas has helped over 7 million people in subSaharan Africa access clean water and sanitation

48.ln Europe we signed the Social Chapter and introduced measures including: four weeks' paid holiday; a right to parental leave; extended maternity leave; a new right to request flexible working; and the same protection for part-time workers as fulltime workers.

49. We led efforts to agree a new international convention banning all cluster munitions.

50. We introduced the first ever British Armed Forces and Veterans Day to honour the achievements of our armed forces - both past and present.
Remember the Tories do not really believe in the state taking action like this. Small government which they like really means minimal government action.

Is that all your own work ?

 

[jon0844]

I assume by "mess" I assume you mean the deficit which any child will tell you is the result of having to bail out the banks and keeping the country afloat during the 2008-09 global financial crisis.

By the time of the 2010 election the economy was recovering nicely and out of recession. The subsequent recession post 2010 was caused purely by the coalition's unnecessary austerity programme.

It's quite amazing how many people really do believe that too.

The suggestion that we only suffered because of problems outside of our control is laughable. It was obvious in the early 2000s that the bubble was going to burst sooner or later, and it was said by many people (so not in any way a surprise or unexpected, even if the exact date couldn't be predicted).

We also had irresponsible lending and people able (and encouraged) to lie to secure mortgages, so how was this just a global crisis that we somehow weren't part of and just felt the effects of?

Doesn't anyone remember the years where people were getting multiple credit cards, shunting balances from one to another, buying everything on buy now pay later, financing new cars, holidays, self-certifying mortgages to punch way above their weight, buy new properties to let and so on?

This was all done under one Government. Sure, I am sure it would have happened under the Tories too, but that's immaterial.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why do the Tories think the world began in 1997. How about their failures of 1979 - 1997 ?

Why would Labour have agreed to keep things going as they were, given they inherited a growing economy, if the Tories had failed so badly?

 

[St Rollox]

Fair play to Labour, their Scottish devolution idea came within 200,000 votes of ending the UK.

 

[WelshBluebird]

And...? He was still courting the right-wing press.

I'd hardly call the Sun "the right-wing press" It is a popularist paper that changes its allegiances based on what the higher ups will sell more papers. Nothing else.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To say "The subsequent recession post 2010 was caused purely by the coalition's unnecessary austerity programme." is absurd when the Labour government had to borrow a record and staggering £163,000,000,000 (£163 Billion pounds) in 2009-10 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8636701.stm. To put that figure of £163 Billion in context. The entire national debt in 1997 when Labour took power was £350 Billion

Gideon has borrowed more in four years than Gordon Brown did in seventeen, and Gideon doesn't have the excuse of a financial crash (the economy is recovering, honest). The debt continues to rise; from a total of £0.76tn in 2010 we're now up to a predicted debt of £1.36tn in 2015.

Impressively this has happened during "austerity", which seems to be Toryspeak for "screw the poor and transfer all the state assets to our Eton mates for a song". See Royal Mail and the NHS outsourcing for further details.

The suggestion that we only suffered because of problems outside of our control is laughable. It was obvious in the early 2000s that the bubble was going to burst sooner or later, and it was said by many people (so not in any way a surprise or unexpected, even if the exact date couldn't be predicted).

Was it obvious? A surprising number of economists didn't think so.

The problem wasn't the "bubble", the problem was that the banks repackaged sub-prime mortgages as "prime debt" and the credit ratings agencies went along with it. People, at some point, have to trust the experts in the field. If Moody's are saying a debt is AAA rated, then it's really tough to say they're talking nonsense (look at how fixated Gideon is on Moody's AAA rating now).

The property market in London is now higher than it was in 2005, are we in a bubble now too?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Err, except that there's a massive difference between "over-regulated" and "no regulation at all" which is what we ended up with under Brown.

Why do Labour always think that nothing that happened between 1997 and 2010 was their responsibility?

There was regulation. The regulation was ineffective, but there was regulation.

The point was, even with this "light touch" regulation, the likes of Cameron and Gideon were wailing and whining about how Labour are "bad for business" by "drowning business in red tape". Every time a Tory opens his mouth he's promising a "bonfire of red tape".

I'm not certain that tougher regulation would have made all that much difference. The fundamental issue was that the likes of Moody's were branding sub-prime debt as AAA debt, and everyone bought into it. Even the regulator has to take expert advice. The US- which has a much tougher regulator- was caught out in exactly the same way, the only difference being is that they are strongly punishing the fraudster bankers whilst we're letting them keep their jobs and pensions.

 

[jon0844]

It's fair to say that for a long time, things like PFI, partnering, outsourcing, zero hour contracts and so on has been about looking after the few at the expense of the many.

Problem is, everyone does it and it was happening under Labour before the coalition in May 2010.

Even if we voted in a communist party that would still happen. Politics is not far dissimilar in religion with the way some people loyally follow, and are asked and expected to support everything the leaders do.

And people are more likely these days to 'want in' than to seek to stop the abuses of power.

There's something fundamentally broken in our political system, but I have no idea how you could fix it. People are voting between major parties that are all quite happy to milk the system and not care about the mess made in the future.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's fair to say that for a long time, things like PFI, partnering, outsourcing, zero hour contracts and so on has been about looking after the few at the expense of the many.

Problem is, everyone does it and it was happening under Labour before the coalition in May 2010.

Both Labour and the Conservatives, as well as the Lib Dems, receive a lot of support from the outsourcers and the consultants who support them. The likes of Deloitte and KPMG will supply staff to both parties to work in their offices, so it is precious little wonder that both parties end up doing the work that's favourable to Deloitte or KPMG.

I'm not sure how to fix it either. Inequality is rapidly going back to how it was in the early 19th century, with the haves having everything and the rest of us having very little. Privilege breeds privilege- the biggest marker of your economic success is how economically successful your parents were- and that won't ever change. The issue is the gap between rich and poor. I think there will have to be a correction sooner rather than later- if the poor cannot afford to buy anything then the economy will grind to a halt- but I think we're still a long way from that happening.

 

[muddythefish]

It's quite amazing how many people really do believe that too.

The suggestion that we only suffered because of problems outside of our control is laughable. It was obvious in the early 2000s that the bubble was going to burst sooner or later, and it was said by many people (so not in any way a surprise or unexpected, even if the exact date couldn't be predicted).

We also had irresponsible lending and people able (and encouraged) to lie to secure mortgages, so how was this just a global crisis that we somehow weren't part of and just felt the effects of?

Doesn't anyone remember the years where people were getting multiple credit cards, shunting balances from one to another, buying everything on buy now pay later, financing new cars, holidays, self-certifying mortgages to punch way above their weight, buy new properties to let and so on?

If it was that obvious why did no one (apart from one US economist who was shouted down because of his views) did see it coming? Or are you cleverer than all the world's best financial minds?

 

[jon0844]

I am pretty certain I wasn't the only person expressing concern on forums in the 2000s. But if I was the only one, then clearly I must be extremely smart. Wow - I feel rather special now!

I think it's rather more likely that people have somewhat selective memories, which is quite obvious when wanting to re-write history to paint the last Government as innocent victims.

I'm not even sure it matters what some economists thought, as anyone with half a brain could tell that if you allow people to live beyond their means (however happy they might appear to be while borrowing near endless amounts) then it isn't going to end well.

How nobody could be trying to stop the banks lending irresponsibly is beyond me. Sure, we couldn't necessarily do much about US banks lending to US citizens, but we certainly could have managed things better here.

And when the s*** did hit the fan, at least our people might not already be in massive debt and completely unable to cope with pay freezes, pay cuts or even redundancy.

I do think we as citizens have to accept a lot of blame ourselves too, as nobody forced us to take on loans and credit (mind you, the banks did try pretty hard), but the Government is supposed to protect us.

Yet, I guess the Government figured that if we're all buying new cars, homes and going on holiday twice a year, we'll keep voting for them.

Now things are hard, it seems we're already seeing that people want to vote anyone back in that will allow us to enjoy those good times again - so rest assured, we'll see another boom and bust (or two) within our lifetime because nobody ever learns.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Once thing that people seem to forget is that in 2007, the Tories promised to match Labour's spending plans. So it seems very hypocritical for them to suddenly be saying "its Labour's fault for spending so much".

 

[table38]

Once thing that people seem to forget is that in 2007, the Tories promised to match Labour's spending plans for the next three years.

Fixed that for you!

But then when GDP began to fall in 2008, Labour just blundered on regardless and started borrowing even more, which meant when the crash came (the crash Brown thought would never happen because he'd abolished boom and bust), Labour were still borrowing and spending. Other countries had been putting money away for a rainy day so fared a lot better than we did.

Who is to say what the Tories might have done in 2008, given they weren't wedded to Labours dogma of tax and spend

 

[yorksrob]

I do think we as citizens have to accept a lot of blame ourselves too, as nobody forced us to take on loans and credit (mind you, the banks did try pretty hard), but the Government is supposed to protect

But what can we citizens do?

Our economy relies on the population spending lots of money on consumer goods, yet no one in the Establishment wants to pay the workers enough to perform this function.

The situation is even worse, now that we've allowed vast sections of the housing stock to be bought by middle men, increasing rents and pushing down supply.

At some stage the politicians are going to have to address the problem of capital movement, particularly as we've allowed so many of our public and private assets to be sold abroad. There's just too much money flowing out and not enough flowing in.

 

[muddythefish]

Fixed that for you!

But then when GDP began to fall in 2008, Labour just blundered on regardless and started borrowing even more, which meant when the crash came (the crash Brown thought would never happen because he'd abolished boom and bust), Labour were still borrowing and spending. Other countries had been putting money away for a rainy day so fared a lot better than we did.

Who is to say what the Tories might have done in 2008, given they weren't wedded to Labours dogma of tax and spend

Thanks for showing the spike in borrowing in 2008-10 to bail out the banks.

It's such a beautiful graph destroying your arguments.

And as for the rainy day cash, your heroine blew our great gift North Sea oil in the 1980s with tax cuts.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...rth-sea-oil-–-failure-invest-britain’s-future

 

[table38]

Thanks for showing the spike in borrowing in 2008-10 to bail out the banks.

It's such a beautiful graph destroying your arguments.

Except that most of the bail out was in the form of guarantees and liabilities. The actual "cash" is estimated at around £123.93bn.

So let's look at my helpful graph again... there's at least an extra £200bn of borrowing... which tends to support my argument that Labour were borrowing to maintain their reckless spending.

And as for the rainy day cash, your heroine blew our great gift North Sea oil in the 1980s with tax cuts.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...rth-sea-oil-–-failure-invest-britain’s-future

So in summary, even though Blair and Brown inherited a fairly robust economy in 1997, it's still all the Tories fault. Seems to be a recurring argument in this thread

 

[muddythefish]

Except that most of the bail out was in the form of guarantees and liabilities. The actual "cash" is estimated at around £123.93bn.

So let's look at my helpful graph again... there's at least an extra £200bn of borrowing... which tends to support my argument that Labour were borrowing to maintain their reckless spending.

You're just repeating standard right wing mythology. You need to read this and learn.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2013/07/Socialpolicycoldclimate.aspx

Among its key findings, the report shows

Public spending went up by 60 per cent and from 39.5 to 47.4 per cent of GDP; but until the crisis hit after 2008, spending levels were unexceptional by historic UK and international standards, and national debt levels were lower than when Labour took office.

“There is a myth that Labour spent a lot and achieved nothing. The evidence shows that outcomes improved and gaps narrowed on virtually all the socio-economic indicators that were targeted. Labour left the Coalition with a legacy of more equal outcomes on many measures, less poverty and expanded public services."

So in summary, even though Blair and Brown inherited a fairly robust economy in 1997, it's still all the Tories fault. Seems to be a recurring argument in this thread

The economy was doing well from 1995 onwards after 16 years of Tory boom and bust. We then had 13 years of unbroken growth until the worldwide financial crisis hit in 2008. If you think that's the Tories' fault I wouldn't argue.

 

[table38]

You're just repeating standard right wing mythology. You need to read this and learn.

I have learned that Labour seem to ignore the facts and blame everyone else for their mess. At the end of the day, the buck stops with the government of the day. Rather than patronising everyone on here, why don't you accept a few facts for yourself?

“There is a myth that Labour spent a lot and achieved nothing. The evidence shows that outcomes improved and gaps narrowed on virtually all the socio-economic indicators that were targeted. Labour left the Coalition with a legacy of more equal outcomes on many measures, less poverty and expanded public services."

But at what cost? We all know they pumped money into the NHS for example, but was it really that much better? Did we really need more managers than Doctors and Nurses? Was that value for money?

Brown was always fond of his "tractor statistics" which gave rise to targets. Trouble is, everyone just worked to the targets. I don't blame them at all for that, but I do blame Labour for their obsession with targets rather than outcomes. And when you bankrupt the country, as Labour always do, "there isn't any money left" for anyone, least of all the vunerable who the government are supposed to protect.

And frankly Labour have a terrible record on poverty:

£150 billion of taxpayers’ money was spent on benefits supposed to help disadvantaged families. However, the number of children in poverty had barely changed by the end of Labour’s period in power.

The gap between rich and poor had actually widened, Department for Work and Pensions figures show.

Child poverty fell by only four per cent between 2004 and 2009, leaving 2.8  million youngsters in poverty.

Twelve per cent of all children remain classed as of “persistent low income”. This means that in three out of four years their family lived on less than 60 per cent of the average household’s income.

In total, over Labour’s time in office, 800,000 children were lifted out of poverty – just six for every £1 million ploughed into the benefit system.

The economy was doing well from 1995 onwards after 16 years of Tory boom and bust. We then had 13 years of unbroken growth until the worldwide financial crisis hit in 2008. If you think that's the Tories' fault I wouldn't argue.

But I don't. Why do you keep telling me what I think? I'm more than capable of expressing my own opinion!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think the current problems with the NHS, caused by underfunding (they won't even honour a pay rise recommended by the independent panel they appointed) and a restructuring nobody wanted, prove Labour did a bloomin' good job with the NHS...

 

[table38]

I think the current problems with the NHS, caused by underfunding (they won't even honour a pay rise recommended by the independent panel they appointed) and a restructuring nobody wanted, prove Labour did a bloomin' good job with the NHS...

We could have a whole new thread on the NHS. Suffice to say, my Dad spent the last night of his life on a trolley in a cupboard in A&E, so forgive me if I don't share your rosy picture of the NHS under Labour.

Anyway Milibands comments about "weaponizing" the NHS gives the game away and shows that he sees the NHS as a political football. The sick, vunerable and even the staff who work in the NHS are just cannon fodder for Mlibands ideological crusade

 

[muddythefish]

I have learned that Labour seem to ignore the facts and blame everyone else for their mess. At the end of the day, the buck stops with the government of the day.
!

Labour were a force for good, as the report I provided showed.

But at what cost? We all know they pumped money into the NHS for example, but was it really that much better? Did we really need more managers than Doctors and Nurses? Was that value for money?

See above. Take the trouble to read the report.

And when you bankrupt the country, as Labour always do, "!

Rubbish.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We could have a whole new thread on the NHS. Suffice to say, my Dad spent the last night of his life on a trolley in a cupboard in A&E, so forgive me if I don't share your rosy picture of the NHS under Labour.
(

Absolute nonsense. No one dies in a cupboard. If so, why didn't you tell the Daily Mail ?

Anyway Milibands comments about "weaponizing" the NHS gives the game away and shows that he sees the NHS as a political football. The sick, vunerable and even the staff who work in the NHS are just cannon fodder for Mlibands ideological crusade

I'm sick of idelogically-driven people slagging off the hard-working staff who toil away in the NHS in difficult circumstances. The NHS has always been a political football - your friends in the Conservatives have kicked it to death over the past 5 years.