UPFN received for boarding the wrong service. Any advice?

[island]

The guard exercised his discretion in your favour by charging you the price of a new ticket rather than reporting you for prosecution for the offence of joining a train without a valid ticket.

 

[jerseyhouse]

Oh FFS, I knew that someone would say that!

Fine, for the pedants, it's like getting on an East Coast train with a Grand Central ticket... no, wait... that's exactly what it is... it's like getting on a Stagecoach bus with a National Express day ticket. Happy now?

No, not particularly happy now. The tickets are exactly the same and if the only indication for a different operator is "AP GC ONLY" I would suggest this needs changing. I think it's wrong that East Coast lose out too, so the system needs changing to be clearer. Maybe ticket checked or read in through a barrier before you board?

 

[yorkie]

No, not particularly happy now. The tickets are exactly the same and if the only indication for a different operator is "AP GC ONLY" I would suggest this needs changing.

Agreed; the restriction on a Train Company specific ticket should be clearer.

However in your case the restriction was there (admittedly in a small font, and with an abbreviation that many won't be familiar with) and it also said "booked train only", so even if both trains were run by the same operator, the ticket wasn't valid.

I can think of other cases (example) where a Guard would charge you a new ticket, and there would be nothing on your ticket to suggest it wasn't valid (but let's not discuss that in this thread; but if you know of any journalists or MPs who want to explore this further, let me know).

I think it's wrong that East Coast lose out too, so the system needs changing to be clearer. Maybe ticket checked or read in through a barrier before you board?

I don't agree that each individual platform should have its own barrier. This is impractical at King's Cross and utterly impossible at Doncaster.

 

[jon0844]

Analogies with air travel aren't particularly helpful. Air travel is a closed system where it is impossible to board a plane with an incorrect ticket.

But I think it's a pretty fair comparison. You have different operators, just like airlines.

The difference is there's nobody physically stopping you from getting on the wrong train. However, announcements/screens are an attempt to prevent people making mistakes.

The question is, would people rather have physical checks and barriers before boarding a train - or to get rid of tickets tied to a specific train/operator?

If the answer is no to both, as I'd assume is the case, then there's not much that can or will be done to stop this situation happening again if someone makes an honest mistake (or not, in the case of those who actually did think they could or should be allowed to get any train regardless of the ticket they had).

The pathetic 16 character limit with stpd cnfusg abbv'ns are a big problem though and always have been. Hopefully the new ticket design will go some way to eliminating this.

 

[bnm]

it's like getting on a Stagecoach bus with a National Express day ticket. Happy now?

Nope. You'll be declined travel on that NatEx bus as a human ticket check is carried out prior to departure. That rarely happens at a station (notable exception, Virgin services off Euston). Gatelines are dumb in this instance, they'd pass the ticket but can't direct the passenger to the correct train. As for the humans manning them...

No, I'll stop there.

 

[yorkie]

Nope.

Agreed. There aren't staff at all doors (17 doors in this case!) checking tickets as you board at each station. If there were, the price would increase and journey times would also increase.

 

[bnm]

The question is, would people rather have physical checks and barriers before boarding a train - or to get rid of tickets tied to a specific train/operator?

If the answer is no to both, as I'd assume is the case...

I've no problem with human checks, provided they are carried out by properly trained staff who know the restrictions and don't make up the rules as they go along. Sadly, personal experience tells me we are a long way short of that ideal.

Also, with a station like King's Cross the gateline for mainline services is quite a way from the platforms, so once through it's easy to find yourself headed for, or boarding, the wrong train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Analogies with air travel aren't particularly helpful. Air travel is a closed system where it is impossible to board a plane with an incorrect ticket.

Except when you do, as (formerly) a very frequent flyer (twice a week) I have seen it a number of times. But the headcount will tend to flush such people out before departure. I've even seen due to an airport screw-up an entire plane's worth start boarding the wrong aircraft (about 5 people including me got past the cabin crew before they went "huh" and called us back).

This style of operation is, of course, completely impractical for trains. Though while VT are still manually barriering Euston it isn't possible (provided they are watching) to get on a train with the wrong ticket. But it is a costly style of operation, and one that leads to long queues, and only works at termini with separate access to each platform. I understand Euston is to get a full set of automatic barriers at some stage, thus bringing it into line with most other stations including Kings Cross.

Neil

 

[najaB]

Nope. You'll be declined travel on that NatEx bus as a human ticket check is carried out prior to departure.

You're thinking coach, rather than bus. This scenario happens in Dundee all the time (well the other way around) as some Stagecoach routes have conductors, and both Stagecoach and National Express have day tickets. So it is a fair comparison.

 

[DelayRepay]

If we want an analogy that works: It's like eating in Pizza Express and then trying to pay with a TGI Friday gift card...

However, the problem here is that when the third party booked these tickets, it would have been clear to them on the screen what they were booking and the restrictions/rules that applied. It would appear that they did not communicate that information to the user of the tickets. The user has then compounded the matter by boarding a different timed train to the one shown on the ticket/reservation.

It has been a while since I traveled with East Coast but they always used to be very good at making pre-departure announcements explaining what was and wasn't valid on the service, and instructing anyone who wasn't sure to go and see a member of staff.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's good that "BOOKDTRAINONLY" in little letters is very shortly being replaced with "Valid only on the following services" in larger letters

 

[maniacmartin]

AP GC ONLY isn't all that obvious. Part of the problem is that 5 of the 16 available characters are wasted on " ONLY". That said, the mandatory reservation coupon and the email itinerary has the time of departure, which was different to the one you caught.

I disagree that the operator's name is not clearly visible on the side of the train, or that both operator's trains are cream.

It's an unfortunate and expensive mistake, but sadly it was your mistake.

 

[bnm]

You're thinking coach, rather than bus. This scenario happens in Dundee all the time (well the other way around) as some Stagecoach routes have conductors, and both Stagecoach and National Express have day tickets. So it is a fair comparison.

Please don't tell me what I'm thinking, unless you are Derren Brown. :roll:

I said bus because I meant bus. In the vast majority of cases your ticket is checked by the driver prior to departing. Wrong operator's day ticket and you are either not travelling or buying a new ticket. The very limited instances of bus services with a conductor who checks tickets after boarding are not a fair comparison.

 

[yorkie]

If we want an analogy that works: It's like eating in Pizza Express and then trying to pay with a TGI Friday gift card...

The analogy only works if both are members of the Association of Restaurant Companies, and by default most gift cards are valid in all restaurants, with gift cards that are only valid in a particular restaurant at a particular time being marked as such in tiny fonts.

As that's not the case, the anology is null & void.

It has been a while since I traveled with East Coast but they always used to be very good at making pre-departure announcements explaining what was and wasn't valid on the service, and instructing anyone who wasn't sure to go and see a member of staff.

I'd be very surprised if that announcement wasn't made at least once (but more likely two or three times!)

 

[najaB]

The very limited instances of bus services with a conductor who checks tickets after boarding are not a fair comparison.

It is a fair comparison because it happens. I've seen it happen in front of me many times - people get a National Express Daysaver and try to use it on a Stagecoach bus. And it's not limited to Dundee - the same can happen anywhere that has two-man operated buses.

There's no 'rule of analogies' that says they have to be 100% equivalent - if they were, then they wouldn't be analogies.

 

[Mojo]

No, not particularly happy now. The tickets are exactly the same and if the only indication for a different operator is "AP GC ONLY" I would suggest this needs changing.

The fact that the 1603 and the 1606 both happen to be operated by different operators is a slight red herring though, as even if both trains were operated by East Coast Trains (or Grand Central Trains for that matter), your ticket would still not have been valid, and you still be liable to pay £105 if questioned on board.

 

[yorkie]

Also I did say earlier "so even if both trains were run by the same operator, the ticket wasn't valid", I will clarify that the charge for a new ticket would have been the same, even if the original poster held a ticket that was valid for a different East Coast service.

This is because if you use the wrong train, but the correct Train Company, you are charged the appropriate fare (with Railcard discounts, if applicable). The appropriate fare for the 1606 is the Anytime fare.

So, to go back to the analogies...

If we want an analogy that works: It's like eating in Pizza Express and then trying to pay with a TGI Friday gift card...

It'd also be the same outcome if you ate in Pizza Express and tried to pay with a Pizza Express gift card for a slightly different meal time.

In other words, the analogies don't work!

There's no 'rule of analogies' that says they have to be 100% equivalent - if they were, then they wouldn't be analogies.

True, but you surely have to use the analogies in a fair manner, which usually means imagining there is a national ticketing/voucher system across all companies in the relevant sector! When you do that, the analogies are less favourable to those who justify customers being penalised.

 

[DelayRepay]

It'd also be the same outcome if you ate in Pizza Express and tried to pay with a Pizza Express gift card for a slightly different meal time.

In other words, the analogies don't work!

I agree these don't really work (but I maintain this is better than the airline example!).

The real issue here is that the passenger doesn't seem to have been made fully aware of the terms and conditions, since he wasn't the person who bought the ticket. Whoever booked it must take some of the blame.

I also note the passenger said he arrived at about five to four, to catch a train due at three minutes past four. That seems to be cutting it very fine to me - a problem on the tube could easily cause a seven minute delay. I do sympathise with him but part of the problem seems to be that his company bought the cheapest ticket without considering the restrictions and making sure their employee knew about them.

 

[bb21]

I agree these don't really work (but I maintain this is better than the airline example!).

The real issue here is that the passenger doesn't seem to have been made fully aware of the terms and conditions, since he wasn't the person who bought the ticket. Whoever booked it must take some of the blame.

I also note the passenger said he arrived at about five to four, to catch a train due at three minutes past four. That seems to be cutting it very fine to me - a problem on the tube could easily cause a seven minute delay. I do sympathise with him but part of the problem seems to be that his company bought the cheapest ticket without considering the restrictions and making sure their employee knew about them.

I whole-heartedly agree with your sentiment.

The analogies aren't really going to work so I will steer clear.

The OP has my sympathy. We used to have two trains from Leicester for St Pancras timed two minutes apart on some hours and run by the same company. I have seen on more than a few occasions people boarding the wrong service, and that is with plenty of announcements being made prior to departure on most of these services.

Nevertheless the bottom line is that the OP made a mistake, and made assumptions when he shouldn't have, and unfortunately in life, sometimes when we make mistakes, there are consequences. This may not necessarily be seen as fair nor proportional but that is the way things are. These tickets are cheap for a reason. However far you take this appeal you will likely be told that you were correctly charged.

Depending on what the OP was told when given the ticket, the person handling the booking may indeed need to take some responsibility, but without knowing the circumstances, it is impossible to say.

So to stop this matter getting any worse, pay it now. You never know. Your company might cover this additional expense for you, or East Coast customer service may offer you a one-off goodwill gesture, although I wouldn't count it (the latter).

 

[bnm]

So to stop this matter getting any worse, pay it now. You never know. Your company might cover this additional expense for you, or East Coast customer service may offer you a one-off goodwill gesture, although I wouldn't count it (the latter).

This.

Round the houses (and yes, I contributed to that merry dance ), but back to what I said in post #24.

 

[yorkie]

...I also note the passenger said he arrived at about five to four, to catch a train due at three minutes past four. That seems to be cutting it very fine to me ....

Without knowing where exactly the OP came from, and what mode of transport was used, and at what time, and whether any delays were encountered, it's difficult to comment specifically, but (without any additional information) it appears that way.

But 7 minutes is still plenty of time to identify the correct train and board it (and seek assistance if unsure).

I'd also advise paying up.

 

[jerseyhouse]

Without knowing where exactly the OP came from, and what mode of transport was used, and at what time, and whether any delays were encountered, it's difficult to comment specifically, but (without any additional information) it appears that way.

But 7 minutes is still plenty of time to identify the correct train and board it (and seek assistance if unsure).

I'd also advise paying up.

Thank you all for your advice I will be paying even though I feel it's unjust.

I actually turned up to Kings Cross about 10 to 4 but spent 5 minutes looking for a chap called Gary from East coast who had kindly lent me a tie when I arrived that morning and asked him where I could find a tie shop. So east coast did save me the price of a tie!

My real question is about discretion and to get to the bottom of the quote on the RPSS website. they will uphold appeals where discretion has not been applied. How do they determine this?

For info copy of tickets

Can somebody advise what an OP is?

 

[bnm]

OP = Original Poster - referring to the person who started a forum thread/topic. Or...

OP = Original/Opening Post - referring to the content of the first post in a thread/topic.

 

[bb21]

My real question is about discretion and to get to the bottom of the quote on the RPSS website. they will uphold appeals where discretion has not been applied. How do they determine this?

For info copy of tickets

Can somebody advise what an OP is?

OP is "original/opening post(er)".

Unfortunately they won't be able to "uphold appeals where discretion has not been applied" as you put it. By definition, discretion is something that can be shown or not shown. Either will be correct and it is entirely a decision for the relevant member of staff to make. You cannot force discretion to be shown, and there will not be anything explicit setting out when discretion must be shown, therefore you can't appeal against such a decision.

PS. Do you mind if I include an image of your ticket in our ticket gallery (less personal information), as I am missing tickets with a U-zone destination?

 

[island]

Whatever you do about appeals, remember that payment of the UPFN is due in full by the indicated date (usually 21 days although I have seen some that say 10). Failure to pay will result in additional fees being incurred. The submission of an appeal does not act to defer the due date for payment.

 

[jerseyhouse]

Whatever you do about appeals, remember that payment of the UPFN is due in full by the indicated date (usually 21 days although I have seen some that say 10). Failure to pay will result in additional fees being incurred. The submission of an appeal does not act to defer the due date for payment.

Yes, aware of that thanks

 

[Class377]

No, not particularly happy now. The tickets are exactly the same and if the only indication for a different operator is "AP GC ONLY" I would suggest this needs changing. I think it's wrong that East Coast lose out too, so the system needs changing to be clearer. Maybe ticket checked or read in through a barrier before you board?

No, the indication is that your train was for the 16:03, which was a Grand Central train. If you had boarded another Grand Central train it still would have been invalid. The question of which operator it was is pointless, as your ticket was valid on one service and one service only.

 

[jerseyhouse]

OP is "original/opening post(er)".

Unfortunately they won't be able to "uphold appeals where discretion has not been applied" as you put it. By definition, discretion is something that can be shown or not shown. Either will be correct and it is entirely a decision for the relevant member of staff to make. You cannot force discretion to be shown, and there will not be anything explicit setting out when discretion must be shown, therefore you can't appeal against such a decision.

PS. Do you mind if I include an image of your ticket in our ticket gallery (less personal information), as I am missing tickets with a U-zone destination?

Yes no problem - feel free to use the image.


Any comment on the RPSS website, link below
http://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/appeal.aspx
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, the indication is that your train was for the 16:03, which was a Grand Central train. If you had boarded another Grand Central train it still would have been invalid. The question of which operator it was is pointless, as your ticket was valid on one service and one service only.

Yes, completely understand - so given the fact that it's an easy mistake to make and expensive, should there be ticket checks before you board?

 

[yorkie]

Any comment on the RPSS website, link below
http://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/appeals.aspx

Are you asking for a critique of the website? It won't help your case.

Yes, completely understand - so given the fact that it's an easy mistake to make and expensive, should there be ticket checks before you board?

If you're asking if there should be a person at each of the 17 doors checking tickets before you board, no there should not. (If not, what are you suggesting?)

 

[jerseyhouse]

Are you asking for a critique of the website? It won't help your case.

If you're asking if there should be a person at each of the 17 doors checking tickets before you board, no there should not. (If not, what are you suggesting?)

Not a critique of the website, a critique of the appeals process. I am stating it as I find it. Apparently I have a right to clear information on tickets it isn't clear and apparently RPSS should uphold where discretion not applied.

At Kings cross there is one entrance to a train, tickets could be checked here?