UPFN received for boarding the wrong service. Any advice?

[jerseyhouse]

I would be interested in feedback on my situation:

My company purchased a return ticket (Doncaster to Kings Cross) 07:12 out (east Coast) and 16:03 return (Great Central). On the way back I looked at the board and saw the 16:06 to Doncaster at platform 3 and assumed this was my train. The tickets looked the same (cream and Orange) and nothing on them to show the different operators. The guard issued me with a UFN notice for £105 and said it was the same as getting on a different flight by mistake. I do disagree with her about the flights (they have checks at the boarding gates). I appealed to RPSS and got a standard "Tough, strict liability" response

I have 4 questions:

1) Should the train company be clearly marked on the ticket along with the risks of boarding the wrong train.
2) Should customers who have paid and made genuine mistakes be penalised?
2) Are ticket collectors allowed to apply discretion in cases such as mine?
3) Are RPSS truly independent, it states on their letter they are a trading company of South West Railways?

 

[bb21]

1) Should the train company be clearly marked on the ticket along with the risks of boarding the wrong train.

What does it say on your ticket in the "Route" field? How much did it cost?

Without knowing what ticket you had, it is impossible to answer the other questions.

 

[najaB]

2) Are ticket collectors allowed to apply discretion in cases such as mine?

Yes. And it sounds like they did. They had four options:

1. Let you travel for free (if it was a Grand Central only ticket then East Coast gets none of the money).
2. Make you pay the correct fare for the train you were on.
3. Put you off the train - assuming it stopped before Doncaster (which the 1603 doesn't), and that the ticket you held would have allowed you to travel on another train (the next GC service didn't leave Kings Cross until after 7pm).
4. Report you for prosecution.

Why do you think you should have been allowed to travel for free?

 

[tony6499]

Why would you assume the 1603 was the 1606 departure ?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This mistake occurs regularly on the East Coast route. To reduce the possiblity, pre-departure announcements are made and usually repeated, along the lines of "if your ticket is marked <train operating company> or <initials of company> then it is not valid on this train. Passengers with tickets marked <train operating company> or <initials> will be required to buy a new ticket."


If your ticket was marked "Grand Central only", "GC & connections", or similar, and you attempted to use it on the 16:06 East Coast service to Leeds, then East Coast would be carrying you without any payment. That's why they make such efforts to announce the ticket validity before departing Kings Cross.
Technically, the guard does have the discretion not to charge, which would effectively mean travelling without any payment as far as East Coast is concerned. In practice, such generous discretion is likely to be reserved for frail or disadvantaged passengers.

 

[mikeg]

We need to know the ticket type and as others have said the route.

If it's a flexible ticket, such as an anytime or off-peak single (I'm assuming anytime because it was in the evening peak) it will say under route the train company. If it has 'any permitted' or a geographical restriction it is valid on any train company as long as the permitted route(s)/geographical restrictions are stuck to.

If it's an advance, they are only valid on a specific train anyway, so even if it were the same company you could be charged still.

I say this as the route wording 'GRAND CTRL ONLY' on flexibles is a lot clearer than 'AP GC ONLY' on advances (Advance Purchase Grand Central only). The former will be easier to understand when the new ticket types come in as it will be worded something like 'Valid for travel by Grand Central trains only', whereas on the new advances it won't be specified - but it's not really a point in this case as advances are only for a specific train and are valid on no other - even if within a few minutes of each other.
Sorry, but if it was a flexible ticket the wording under route is clear enough and if it wasn't it was only valid on the specified train anyway.

As for your point about RPSS I don't think they are sufficiently independent but again this isn't relevant in this particular case as they were correct.

 

[najaB]

On the way back I looked at the board and saw the 16:06 to Doncaster at platform 3 and assumed this was my train...

Surely it would have said "16:06 Leeds" and would have been to the right of or below "16:03 Bradford Interchange"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely it would have said "16:06 Leeds" and would have been to the right of or below "16:03 Bradford Interchange"?

Does Kings X have a Manc Picc style "next fastest train to" board as well as the normal ones? If so that might be understandable confusion.

On Brum-Euston trains you sometimes get a bit of discretion in that if you have a London Midland ticket and boarded in error you are often given the option to alight at International or Coventry to change to LM. However they don't have to do this, some guards won't and will simply charge the full Anytime Single, either to the next station or to Euston depending on what you decide to do.

I've not heard of a prosecution for this kind of thing, and wouldn't expect one unless done repeatedly and clearly deliberately, but of course they are within their rights to do that, and if you're awkward with the guard or RPIs that is one way to encourage that to be the line taken.

Neil

 

[ainsworth74]

Does Kings X have a Manc Picc style "next fastest train to" board as well as the normal ones? If so that might be understandable confusion.

Yes it does but I'm fairly certain that only covers specific GN destinations and doesn't cover East Coast.

 

[najaB]

Yes it does but I'm fairly certain that only covers specific GN destinations and doesn't cover East Coast.

The GC service is earlier and faster than the EC one anyway - 17:35 arrival v 17:43.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . .

• Put you off the train - assuming it stopped before Doncaster (which the 1603 doesn't), and that the ticket you held would have allowed you to travel on another train (the next GC service didn't leave Kings Cross until after 7pm).

The 16:06 EC does stop at Peterborough, but as no GC services stop anywhere south of Donny anyway, there wouldn't be another train on which jerseyhouse with his/her GC ticket could travel onwards.

On Brum-Euston trains you sometimes get a bit of discretion in that if you have a London Midland ticket and boarded in error you are often given the option to alight at International or Coventry to change to LM.

jerseyhouse was travelling on the East Coast, not going anywhere near London Midland trains or Coventry.
The only stop before Donny on the 16:06 is Peterborough, and to have been 'given the option to alight' at P'bro with a "GC only" ticket would have been of no use whatsoever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

jerseyhouse was travelling on the East Coast, not going anywhere near London Midland trains or Coventry.

It was an example of a common "wrong TOC" confusion and how it is often handled.

The only stop before Donny on the 16:06 is Peterborough, and to have been 'given the option to alight' at P'bro with a "GC only" ticket would have been of no use whatsoever.

Indeed not, though if money rather than time was of the essence an Anytime to Peterborough then alighting to purchase an Off-Peak on a following EC service might have been a viable option. Though I guess as the OP got an UFN (rather than a paid-for Anytime Single) from a guard I expect they refused to pay the Anytime (or did not have the means to do so) - OP, would that be correct?

Neil

 

[yorkie]

I would be interested in feedback on my situation:

My company purchased a return ticket (Doncaster to Kings Cross) 07:12 out (east Coast) and 16:03 return (Great Central). On the way back I looked at the board and saw the 16:06 to Doncaster at platform 3 and assumed this was my train.

Was the 1603 not displayed on the board?

The tickets looked the same (cream and Orange) and nothing on them to show the different operators.

Under 'Route', are you sure it didn't say something like "GC Only"? Can you take a photo of the ticket?

The guard issued me with a UFN notice for £105 and said it was the same as getting on a different flight by mistake. I do disagree with her about the flights (they have checks at the boarding gates). I appealed to RPSS and got a standard "Tough, strict liability" response

RPSS are a debt collection agency, and won't budge except in a very limited range of circumstances (and this isn't one of them)

I have 4 questions:

1) Should the train company be clearly marked on the ticket along with the risks of boarding the wrong train.

If the ticket is restricted to a train company, this must be marked on the ticket.

As for the "risk" of boarding the wrong train; there is no risk other than being asked to buy a valid ticket. The T&Cs do state this.

2) Should customers who have paid and made genuine mistakes be penalised?

I personally believe that it would be fairer to charge an excess (ie, deduct the amount you had already paid) plus a reasonable admin fee. However the Train Companies are - understandably - very reluctant to do this, because the money you originally paid has already been allocated to a different Train Company.

2) Are ticket collectors allowed to apply discretion in cases such as mine?

They are allowed to, but until I see a photo of your ticket, I can't see any reason to, unless perhaps the departure board really wasn't displaying the 1603, but even if it wasn't, why didn't you seek advice?

3) Are RPSS truly independent, it states on their letter they are a trading company of South West Railways?

Southeastern, more like. They're independent of East Coast, but I agree they are not as "independent" as they claim to be. They do sometimes act incorrectly but I can see no evidence of wrongdoing by RPSS on this occasion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does Kings X have a Manc Picc style "next fastest train to" board as well as the normal ones? If so that might be understandable confusion.

Even if it did, 1603 would have been the next fastest train.

On Brum-Euston trains you sometimes get a bit of discretion in that if you have a London Midland ticket and boarded in error you are often given the option to alight at International or Coventry to change to LM. However they don't have to do this, some guards won't and will simply charge the full Anytime Single, either to the next station or to Euston depending on what you decide to do.

Not relevant/applicable to the OP's situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if it did, 1603 would have been the next fastest train.

At Manchester Piccadilly, those displays show the next fastest train for each TOC, recognising that some people have TOC specific tickets. I would expect other such boards to be similar - certainly for destinations like that. If so it is quite likely the two would appear right next to each other in the list.

Neil

 

[najaB]

I would expect other such boards to be similar - certainly for destinations like that. If so it is quite likely the two would appear right next to each other in the list.

ainsworth74 has said that he doesn't think that EC services would be shown on the board. Even if they were, seeing two entries for 'Doncaster' would cause most people to double-check their ticket.

 

[PermitToTravel]

At Manchester Piccadilly, those displays show the next fastest train for each TOC, recognising that some people have TOC specific tickets. I would expect other such boards to be similar - certainly for destinations like that. If so it is quite likely the two would appear right next to each other in the list.

Neil

I don't think these are any less likely to cause confusion than the screens used at King's Cross. The one at Picc shows plural trains even to destinations where there are no TOC-specific tickets (and nor does it state which train arrives first)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think these are any less likely to cause confusion than the screens used at King's Cross. The one at Picc shows plural trains even to destinations where there are no TOC-specific tickets (and nor does it state which train arrives first)

Indeed it doesn't. Though I didn't so much intend to discuss the merits or otherwise of this kind of board; rather I think it is possible that the OP may have been confused by one. Not that that affects the fact that it is the responsibility of the passenger to ensure they are on the correct train, whatever type of departure board is in use, and as such it doesn't really affect his situation.

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

Though as has been pointed out, if such a board was in operation at King's Cross, it would have shown the OP's booked train (or possibly both). The OP's booked train departed King's Cross, and arrived at Doncaster, before the one they ended up boarding.

 

[jerseyhouse]

Thank you for everyone's replies and opinions, clearly I made a mistake here and I suspect I will not be the last person to make this mistake, two trains 3 minutes apart going to the same destination.

I have checked my ticket and it was an advance ticket Under Route I have to admit it does say "AP GC ONLY". I suspect only those in the know understand what that really means. On the national rail website it says that passengers rights are that a train company must provide clear information before and during my journey to help me carry out my journey and to make clear any important restrictions on how you can use that ticket. I might be naïve but I really do not think it is clear enough.

Why did I assume the 16:06 was the 16:03 - because like many occasional travellers to London I had looked at my ticket briefly and retained the information "a few minutes past 4pm", it was about 5 to 4.00 when I arrived so when I glanced at the board and saw the 16.06 to Doncaster, I thought great platform 3. We all lead busy lives, yes it was a mistake.

DaveNewcastle - I am interested in your reply, discretion is likely to be reserved for frail or disadvantaged passengers - why should this make a difference?

 

[jerseyhouse]

I forgot to ask - does anyone know how to upload a photo of your ticket on the forum - it seems to allow you to upload from a URL but not a picture

Sorry Neil - missed your comment - I didn't have the means to pay, the £105 is a lot more than had I purchased it in advance (which my company did - albeit for a different train).

Yes. And it sounds like they did. They had four options:

1. Let you travel for free (if it was a Grand Central only ticket then East Coast gets none of the money).
2. Make you pay the correct fare for the train you were on.
3. Put you off the train - assuming it stopped before Doncaster (which the 1603 doesn't), and that the ticket you held would have allowed you to travel on another train (the next GC service didn't leave Kings Cross until after 7pm).
4. Report you for prosecution.

Why do you think you should have been allowed to travel for free?

I didn't travel for free, the company paid for my travel - it was a genuine mistake!

 

[Merseysider]

I forgot to ask - does anyone know how to upload a photo of your ticket on the forum - it seems to allow you to upload from a URL but not a picture.

When you click on the red "Post Reply" button, look for a paperclip icon (like the one I've attached) above the typing field.

Click "Choose file" then "Upload" and finally "Close window". Your image will be contained in your post.

 

[PermitToTravel]

A ticket with the type "AP GC ONLY" is only valid on the specific train or trains you've been booked on - you're not expected to know what it means, but you are expected to know what train to get. For future reference it's written on the other piece of card you have to carry with your ticket (the seat reservation)

 

[Darandio]

I didn't travel for free

But your thread is titled 'discretion', which in this case if given would most likely have been the allowance of travel on the East Coast service with a a Grand Central ticket, therefore travelling for free.

 

[bnm]

In this instance the ticket was purchased by a third party so the eventual user would have had no warnings or T&Cs given to them at the time of purchase about the restrictions applied to the ticket.

It does highlight a problem for an occasional traveller who may not be au fait with Advance Purchase tickets being tied to one train. With two departures to the OPs destination very close together I can easily understand how the mistake was made by an infrequent traveller.

Then you can ask an infrequent or non-rail user what 'AP GC ONLY' means and you may very well get a blank look or "huh?"

By the letter of the law, East Coast Trains have done nothing wrong and they have shown some discretion (although having to pay £105 may not seem like discretion), but I would hope that constructive dialogue between them and the OP could lead to favourable resolution. In the mean time RPSS will only be interested in the money. It may be painful to pay up now, but not doing so will only lead to further costs. Pay now and then take up the matter with East Coast Customer Relations.

 

[fowler9]

I have a fair amount of sympathy with the OP. Some people are truly baffled using public transport and what seems obvious to us won't seem so to them especially if the ticket was bought for them by someone else. They made a mistake and I hope their employer picks up the cost.

 

[najaB]

I didn't travel for free, the company paid for my travel - it was a genuine mistake!

Darandio was correct - what I was saying is that if the Guard had allowed you to travel on the 16:06 train, with the ticket you held, you would have been effectively travelling for free (on that train) because East Coast didn't get any of the money that your company had paid.

I understand that you aren't a frequent train user, so it may seem unfair, but one of the conditions of cheaper Advance fares is that they are only valid on the specified train. If you get on any other train - even if it's a mistake - they aren't valid and you're in the same position as if you didn't have any ticket at all (especially so if the ticket conditions restrict travel to another company's trains).

That's what the guard was trying to explain to you - it's as if you paid to travel on Easyjet but end up on a Ryanair flight.

 

[bnm]

Analogies with air travel aren't particularly helpful. Air travel is a closed system where it is impossible to board a plane with an incorrect ticket.

 

[fowler9]

Darandio was correct - what I was saying is that if the Guard had allowed you to travel on the 16:06 train, with the ticket you held, you would have been effectively travelling for free (on that train) because East Coast didn't get any of the money that your company had paid.

I understand that you aren't a frequent train user, so it may seem unfair, but one of the conditions of cheaper Advance fares is that they are only valid on the specified train. If you get on any other train - even if it's a mistake - they aren't valid and you're in the same position as if you didn't have any ticket at all (especially so if the ticket conditions restrict travel to another company's trains).

That's what the guard was trying to explain to you - it's as if you paid to travel on Easyjet but end up on a Ryanair flight.

The major difference being that there is almost no way you would get on a Ryanair flight with a ticket for an Easyjet one. Although I was once on a Ryanair flight from Dublin to Liverpool where an announcement was made for a lady travelling to Manchester who had got on the wrong plane.

 

[najaB]

Analogies with air travel aren't particularly helpful. Air travel is a closed system where it is impossible to board a plane with an incorrect ticket.

Oh FFS, I knew that someone would say that!

Fine, for the pedants, it's like getting on an East Coast train with a Grand Central ticket... no, wait... that's exactly what it is... it's like getting on a Stagecoach bus with a National Express day ticket. Happy now?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . .

DaveNewcastle - I am interested in your reply, discretion is likely to be reserved for frail or disadvantaged passengers - why should this make a difference?

Yes, your thread title is 'Discretion' so we should try to answer your question.

It is not a formula, a right or obligation.

It can be a gesture of human understanding, even where the gesture might undermine the very purpose of the Company's business model (i.e. to generate revenue from rail fares). As you might expect, such a contradiction between the commercial purpose of the business and the granting of free travel would be reserved for only the most deserving of individuals - my reference to the frail or disadvantaged does not imply a policy but an illustration.

I have experience of discretion being shown in favour of passengers travelling on East Coast trains on numerous occasions, and most cases, I would say that it was a gesture of kindness towards someone who would be bewildered, unable, or lacking some capacity; the extent or value of the gesture would be proportionate to the circumstances.

Conversely, a passenger expecting to be shown 'discretion' where that is just shorthand for free-travel is very unlikely to receive it.