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Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

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Robertj21a

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No London fleet to cascade from anymore. Calls to Ensign?

There may well be a shortage of DDA-compliant single deckers later this year once all the operators realise that they can't operate non-DDA after 31st December. Ensigns can only sell on what they can acquire from others - they may well be unable to match demand.
 
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ECML180

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Interesting way to compete potentially...just buy up all the complaint vehicles you can and scrap/stockpile them, let the other firms lose routes or be stuck with double deckers!
 
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Most First stuff in Cornwall other than the buses specially for the 14/18/U1/U2 are pretty much at the bottom of the depreciation line.

Looking at the age of the new western greyhound stuff, most of it is towards the bottom end of the line as well, the majority being 12-13 years old. The Volvo presidents being 15 years.

A lot of First's fleet is still in depreciation actually. S reg Olympians are in their last year of depreciation.
Darts will be depreciating over 12 years I suspect.

The lack of new buses isn't to do with depreciation, it's to do with the return on investment - i.e. profit margin. With First Kernow now in profit at last there's a good prospect of new vehicles, maybe not this coming financial year, but certainly beyond that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There may well be a shortage of DDA-compliant single deckers later this year once all the operators realise that they can't operate non-DDA after 31st December. Ensigns can only sell on what they can acquire from others - they may well be unable to match demand.

There is a big chunck of single deckers that are convertible at a cost of a couple of thousand a piece. It's just that the big operators won't want to spend capital money on vehicles that aren't worth much more, and small independents won't spend it until right near the time in case the vehicle dies before!
The other alternative is that some operators could switch some of their fleet switch from single deckers to Olympians, which are around in decent numbers, are very cheap, and would keep them going until 2017. Within a year or so there will be plenty of DDA compliant single deckers flowing back through the secondhand market.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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No London fleet to cascade from anymore. Calls to Ensign?

People always seem to mention that but it's a bit of a red herring. Firstly, London skewed everything so you've lots of aged deckers when most provincial fleets are mainly single deck. The vehicles get hammered running day and night so they're in pieces. The spec means a lot of remedial work and there's some features (like staircases) that you're stuck with. Therefore, ex London deckers are more of a curse in some respects :(

Stagecoach now lease for London (IIRC) because of those issues - sure someone can confirm. At least operators won't have to worry about the NBfL
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A lot of First's fleet is still in depreciation actually. S reg Olympians are in their last year of depreciation.
Darts will be depreciating over 12 years I suspect.

The lack of new buses isn't to do with depreciation, it's to do with the return on investment - i.e. profit margin. With First Kernow now in profit at last there's a good prospect of new vehicles, maybe not this coming financial year, but certainly beyond that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There is a big chunck of single deckers that are convertible at a cost of a couple of thousand a piece. It's just that the big operators won't want to spend capital money on vehicles that aren't worth much more, and small independents won't spend it until right near the time in case the vehicle dies before!

Is that true on depreciation ages? Surprising Darts aren't done over 15. Arriva depreciate theirs over that sort of term - just struck off a load of X reg B6LEs that were spare after the sale of Scotland to McGills and have been sat depreciating for the last 3 years. I'd assumed something similar explained the Excels being sat in Muller Road for the last two years?

The larger saloons can be converted relatively easily and the repaint of an R Reg B10BLE in Bristol suggests that they're going to soldier on for the foreseeable.
 

mbonwick

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Stagecoach now lease for London (IIRC) because of those issues - sure someone can confirm.

Correct, all new stuff is leased so as not to have the negative impacts discussed on the provincial fleets. Will be interesting to see though if more of the older (and therefore owned) deckers are cascaded out from London now or not...
 

Goldfish62

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Correct, all new stuff is leased so as not to have the negative impacts discussed on the provincial fleets. Will be interesting to see though if more of the older (and therefore owned) deckers are cascaded out from London now or not...

Yes, the Scania Omnicities are owned, having been bought by ELBG.
 
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Is that true on depreciation ages? Surprising Darts aren't done over 15. Arriva depreciate theirs over that sort of term - just struck off a load of X reg B6LEs that were spare after the sale of Scotland to McGills and have been sat depreciating for the last 3 years. I'd assumed something similar explained the Excels being sat in Muller Road for the last two years?

.

All the groups are different. A dart is likely to be depreciated between 10 and 12 years. 15 would be for a heavyweight bus, so Volvo single decks may well be treated like deckers.
The groups change their depreciation 'rules' from time to time. Second hand buses regularly end up being depreciated over a longer overall life, and refurbishment work also tends to extend the overall depreciation life.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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All the groups are different. A dart is likely to be depreciated between 10 and 12 years. 15 would be for a heavyweight bus, so Volvo single decks may well be treated like deckers.
The groups change their depreciation 'rules' from time to time. Second hand buses regularly end up being depreciated over a longer overall life, and refurbishment work also tends to extend the overall depreciation life.

I don't doubt that - just surprised that Darts are depreciated over only 12 years. Especially so given the economic travails of First in recent years. Would've been easy to re-baseline the depreciation to provide a "saving" especially after mid life refurb.

Also, are you saying deckers are depreciated over 15 years? In which case, the S reg ones would be clear of depreciation as would T reg Tridents. No mid life overhaul on them sheds to confuse matters!!
 
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Busaholic

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Notwithstanding all the knowledgeable comments about depreciation and the other accountancy matters, of which I choose to remain blissfully ignorant (a by-product of coming from a family of Inland Revenue and Bank of England employees) Cornwall seems destined to receive everyone else's cast-offs in bus terms for the foreseeable future unless Cornwall Council or a university choose to put up some funding for specific services, like Truro park-and-ride, whether those buses originated in London or elsewhere. I'm sure ex-London deckers may not fill the bill at all for all sorts of reasons, especially now that so many see almost 24 hour operation on an individual basis.

As I said, depreciation and suchlike is a foreign language to me, but I read enough to know that a big company like Tesco can, by massaging figures, produce results that are found to be false and, consequently,wipe millions off share value, so I'd be surprised if the major groups had markedly different policies in relation to it. Nothing in this thread has led me to that conclusion, by the way.
 

mbonwick

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Yes, the Scania Omnicities are owned, having been bought by ELBG.

Don't think they are...pretty sure they were bought on hire-purchase agreements, and most of the stuff newer than an 04 plate was sold and leased back by ELBG.
19000 is obviously an exception to that.

Certainly the way Stagecoach have structured enthusiast news on the Omnicities would suggest they are leased.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'd probably assume that the Omnicity deckers are leased as I've noticed far fewer of them recently. They're pretty much gone off the 205 and the 56 seems to have an awful lot more ALX400/Tridents on it than it ever used to.

That could also be that the Omnicity deckers are a piece of junk, but hey.

The problem with ex-London deckers is that they're usually clapped out long before they even get to the provinces. I know Stagecoach Cumberland (another marginal company) had huge issues with the ex-London Tridents they got for the 104 Carlisle to Penrith route, to the extent that they abandoned the idea; they just couldn't cope with the fast roads.
 

mbonwick

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No Omnicities have been returned off-lease (yet)...all are still in service, but recently they've been swapped around depots as new vehicles have arrived.

The vehicle you mention for the 104 was actually S817BWC, which had done its fair share of provincial work with Morecambe and Lillyhall depots before it was foisted onto Carlisle...much of it's demise can actually be traced to the hills of West Cumbria. It's now back at Morecambe where it handles the flat much better.
 

Goldfish62

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I'd probably assume that the Omnicity deckers are leased as I've noticed far fewer of them recently. They're pretty much gone off the 205 and the 56 seems to have an awful lot more ALX400/Tridents on it than it ever used to.

That could also be that the Omnicity deckers are a piece of junk, but hey.

I believe most, if not all, of the Omnicities are owned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is that true on depreciation ages? Surprising Darts aren't done over 15.

I'm not - they are a lightweight vehicle, after all. I believe that NBC depreciated Bristol LHs etc over 8 years.
 

christopher

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The Omnicitys are leased.

Some are due to start going off-lease from T as the the NBfLs start to enter service/lease dates end.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I believe most, if not all, of the Omnicities are owned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm not - they are a lightweight vehicle, after all. I believe that NBC depreciated Bristol LHs etc over 8 years.

Not really an accurate comparison - the new bus grant allowed everything to be depreciated in shorter periods than now - United withdrew their first VRs at 13 yrs old. Also, the NBC were hardly known for their financial prowess. Can't imagine withdrawing 2002 deckers being withdrawn by many provincial fleets.

Remember Bristol OC were withdrawing and scrapping REs at 10 years old. As I say, Arriva depreciate at 15 IIRC so surprised that First do it faster.
 

Robertj21a

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Not really an accurate comparison - the new bus grant allowed everything to be depreciated in shorter periods than now - United withdrew their first VRs at 13 yrs old. Also, the NBC were hardly known for their financial prowess. Can't imagine withdrawing 2002 deckers being withdrawn by many provincial fleets.

Remember Bristol OC were withdrawing and scrapping REs at 10 years old. As I say, Arriva depreciate at 15 IIRC so surprised that First do it faster.

Nottingham and Brighton & Hove are withdrawing at about 12-13 years old.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Stagecoach as a rule depreciate over 15 years as well, though Solos are done over 10 I believe.

I can't recall if Arriva depreciate Solos over 10 or 12 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nottingham and Brighton & Hove are withdrawing at about 12-13 years old.

Hence the use of the word "many" - in NBC days, 13 yrs was the target age for withdrawals but a lot went even earlier. LCBS Nationals, NGT Nationals - some scrapped when 10 years of age.

It was a different age without shareholders to please, so not really an accurate comparison.
 

richw

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I can't recall if Arriva depreciate Solos over 10 or 12 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hence the use of the word "many" - in NBC days, 13 yrs was the target age for withdrawals but a lot went even earlier. LCBS Nationals, NGT Nationals - some scrapped when 10 years of age.

It was a different age without shareholders to please, so not really an accurate comparison.

Although a similar comparison would be with the car. 20 years ago, majority of cars were scrapped by 10 years. These days a car lifespan is considerably more. Even 10 years ago when I started driving a 10 year old car was a few hundred quid going to its last home before the scrap yard. I've now got a 12 year old car and a 15 year old car both going strong touch wood and wouldn't consider scrapping either. One had an advisory for tyres, the other failed on brake pads for the last mot respectively. This seems the norm, at least in Cornwall where there are lots of pre 51 reg cars.
At a guess the lifespan of a bus will have extended as well, as technology and engines have become more reliable.
 

Goldfish62

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Not really an accurate comparison - the new bus grant allowed everything to be depreciated in shorter periods than now - United withdrew their first VRs at 13 yrs old. Also, the NBC were hardly known for their financial prowess. Can't imagine withdrawing 2002 deckers being withdrawn by many provincial fleets.

Remember Bristol OC were withdrawing and scrapping REs at 10 years old. As I say, Arriva depreciate at 15 IIRC so surprised that First do it faster.

It wasn't meant to be an accurate comparison. I was merely illustrating then and now.
 

90sWereBetter

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The Omnicitys are leased.

Some are due to start going off-lease from T as the the NBfLs start to enter service/lease dates end.

I'm surprised (and rather heartened, as it means a few more Tridents might survive for a while longer this year) at this revelation. I was pretty sure that any displaced Omnicities would be moved around London to replace all pre-2004 Tridents in service by mid-year.
 

richw

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Spent around an hour photographing buses at St Austell and another hour at Newquay.

All Western Greyhound services during those times were on time except the 587 I wanted to get home at 1435 from Newquay no showed.

Certainly plenty of variety about.
 

winston270twm

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Spent around an hour photographing buses at St Austell and another hour at Newquay.

All Western Greyhound services during those times were on time except the 587 I wanted to get home at 1435 from Newquay no showed.

Certainly plenty of variety about.

Richw,

Did you notice how loadings fared between WG & First services?
 

richw

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Richw,

Did you notice how loadings fared between WG & First services?

I would say a 60% 40% split in favour of WG on the routes round St Austell, but WG go round more of the villages. I rode WG St A-Fowey and returned on First. I was the only person who went St A to Fowey, and same on the return journey. All the other passengers were going to the small villages on route.
On the Newquay to Truro routes I would say a 75% 25% split in favour of First.

First run 5-10 mins in front of WG on nearly all of the routes in St Austell so expected them to have loaded better from Newquay there is about 15 minute gaps, with both companies running half hourly from Newquay to Truro alternating over the 2 routes.
 
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pompeyfan

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I stayed in crantock in November and the midnight services were running on the 587, unless you mean more recently.
 

winston270twm

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I thought WG would hang on to that given it is only a few years old.

WG have sold the following to Ensign during Jan

VEHICLES IN.

From Western Greyhound : Merc Vario’s : WK02BUS / SAT WK03BUS / WK53BNB / EUT WK04CCC / CUL / HSD / KUO / OTA WK54BHN / BHP WK05AOX / CFD. Optare Solo’s WK11APO / WK11APV / WK11APU / WK11APX Dart NA52AWP
 
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