Flooding at Farringdon

[SpacePhoenix]

Water levels inside the tunnel between Farringdon and St Pancras International have risen this morning, meaning that a reduced Thameslink service is running with journey times being extended by up to 60 minutes.

Has the leak gotten worse? Someone mentioned earlier on in the thread that the water in the main had been turned off

 

[grid56126]

This morning 07.00

http://grid56126.zenfolio.com/p773048280/h20F59A7B#h20f59a7b

 

[Bald Rick]

Has the leak gotten worse? Someone mentioned earlier on in the thread that the water in the main had been turned off

Somebody, with a disposition not entirely unrelated to that of a muppet, turned it back on again :mad:

 

[Abpj17]

Yeah; Hatfield to St Albans wouldn't worry me so much, I know there are 'normal' services too at a decent frequency because of UNO/university campus and various other factors and are much closer together. From a glance hitchin to luton is 8pm or 10pm and from nowhere near the station in the evening... or a NatEx service

 

[21C101]

Has the leak gotten worse? Someone mentioned earlier on in the thread that the water in the main had been turned off

Apparently the 387 that got stuck developed leaks in its seats and all the massive amount of cushion fluid drained out of those "comfy" seats onto the track.

 

[The Box Photter]

No sign of a published alternative timetable for intending passengers yet. Advice on Thameslink Twitter feed seems to be turn up and hope.

They need to think about contingencies for tomorrow am peak now and get enough rolling stock & drivers in the correct positions to run a split service, with trains to/from Brighton starting & terminating at Blackfriars and trains to/from Bedford starting & terminating at St Pancras.

If it means putting some drivers in hotels overnight, so be it. They should stop trying to run trains in service through the flood just in case one of them goes pop and blocks the line even further.

If they told everyone now that trains won't be running through the core at all tomorrow, but published an emergency timetable showing a robust service to get most passengers into London from both sides of the blockage, I'm sure nearly all passengers would accept the situation and be understanding that the problem isn't of Thameslink's own making.

This would at least give most passengers some way of adapting their journey and take the pressure off the contractors who are trying to fix the broken water main.

The thing passengers hate most is uncertainty, whether a train will turn up, will it get them to their destination or will they be left standing on a platform somewhere with no information. Thameslink has it in its power to do something now that will alleviate the problem, but its a big decision to take and one that gets more difficult to implement the closer we get to tomorrow's morning peak.

 

[grid56126]

If it means putting some drivers in hotels overnight, so be it.

That is a fantastic idea...

What are your thoughts for this? Bedford drivers in hotels at Gatwick maybe or Brighton drivers in hotels at Luton / St Albans?

Not sure where the best place to put the Blackfriars drivers would be? maybe a few at Bedford, Brighton and a couple at Sutton.

 

[Chrisgr31]

If they told everyone now that trains won't be running through the core at all tomorrow, but published an emergency timetable showing a robust service to get most passengers into London from both sides of the blockage, I'm sure nearly all passengers would accept the situation and be understanding that the problem isn't of Thameslink's own making.

This would at least give most passengers some way of adapting their journey and take the pressure off the contractors who are trying to fix the broken water main.

The thing passengers hate most is uncertainty, whether a train will turn up, will it get them to their destination or will they be left standing on a platform somewhere with no information. Thameslink has it in its power to do something now that will alleviate the problem, but its a big decision to take and one that gets more difficult to implement the closer we get to tomorrow's morning peak.

Well if its anything like the existing Southern franchise that is one thing they wont be doing. They just dont do forward thinking. They haven't twigged that passengers would be happier knowing there were issues and what the alternatives are in advance. Apart from anything else the TOC can also then get the credit when normal service is reintroduced "early".

 

[fusionblue]

Can anyone answer why trains to/from Sevenoaks was just sent to Victoria on Friday rather than Blackfriars, City Thameslink or even terminate at Elephant?

 

[LBSCR Times]

The way the system is set up, then Thameslink cannot just implement a split service.
Network Rail have to advise them that is what is required, and it has to be agreed by the DfT too if it is published in advance!
The provision of a split service is simple, except on the Wimbledon Loop, in any event.
Every half hour between Brighton and City Thameslink, resourced by Brighton drivers, and every 15 minutes between Bedford and St.Pancras, resourced by Bedford drivers, with additionals as and when resources are available between Luton and Kentish Town.
Leaves Blackfriars drivers to work the limited Loop service, and then hoping that South Eastern can resource a service on that side.
You actually needs more drivers to run a restricted service than you do the full pre-planned service.
In any event, it won't be uploaded to the system until overnight anyway, even though Thameslink can advise out what is planned.

 

[edwin_m]

Is there platform capacity at St Pancras for any Thameslink trains during the peaks?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Is there platform capacity at St Pancras for any Thameslink trains during the peaks?

It would be St.Pancras Low Level, hence the limited service possible and why other services would need to terminate Kentish Town.

 

[The Box Photter]

Why would there be a limited service using St Pancras? Run in, drop the passengers, run forward past the crossover, driver walks though the train and runs back over the crossover into the northbound platform. Surely that process can't take anywhere near 15 mins.

Given the propensity for things to go wrong through the core, any decent organisation should already have a contingency plan in place. In this case, it ought to have formed part of the franchise commitment to DfT.

I don't buy the argument that "its too difficult to run a split service and they can't publish a timetable without DfT's approval". If necessary, they could fax a copy to the Secretary of State for Transport this afternoon and have it signed off, if they really wanted to prove to their customers that they have their interests at heart.

Someone should follow the principle of "GSD" instead of posting videos of trains running through the floodwaters on Twitter. (You might have to Google what GSD means).

 

[philjo]

Yeah; Hatfield to St Albans wouldn't worry me so much, I know there are 'normal' services too at a decent frequency because of UNO/university campus and various other factors and are much closer together. From a glance hitchin to luton is 8pm or 10pm and from nowhere near the station in the evening... or a NatEx service

It will be worse from April if the Herts CC proposed cuts in bus subsidies go ahead. In the proposed timetable on the consultation website it looks like the last service bus to Luton will then leave Stevenage at 18:45 - it passes through Hitchin but via St Mary's Square/hermitage Road, not from Hitchin Station. THe current last 2 buses will be withdrawn unless Arriva run them commercially. (it does pick up outside Stevenage station). It looks like there will still be a regular evening service for Hatfield to St Albans (though maybe a reduced frequency).

 

[pitdiver]

Just walked past Flitwick stn and all that's showing is two trains to Bedford and one to St Pancras and that's it. Nothing after 1430. The DMI is scrolling a message "The only trains that are running are the one's showing":?

 

[21C101]

Just walked past Flitwick stn and all that's showing is two trains to Bedford and one to St Pancras and that's it. Nothing after 1430. The DMI is scrolling a message "The only trains that are running are the one's showing":?

My phone app is showing all trains in both directions cancelled at Flitwick.

Re prev posts. Surely the key to making the most of St P low level is stepping back drivers. LUL turnback about 24 per hour at Brixton with an identical track layout - 2 platforms and a scissors at the north end.

 

[DelayRepay]

If they tell people now that there will be problems in the morning, people have other options. Some will travel earlier, some will work from home, some will go via the GN route or the WCML (making their own way across rather than relying on coaches). Passengers will factor in extra time.

As it is, I need to be in London for 9:00. I could rearrange things this afternoon if I knew there were going to be problems but as it is I am in the dark.

It would be good to know what is realistically expected to happen tomorrow. Personally I think I will plan for the worse but most passengers won't use sites this, so will be unaware that there is still a problem.

 

[The Box Photter]

There needs to be some outside the (St Pancras) box thinking here.

1. Southbound terminating train runs into St P operated by driver (A).
2. Passengers disembark & spare driver (B) gets onto the train in the rearmost cab.
3. Driver B tells driver A he's on board & driver A drives train forwards past crossover.
4. Driver A tells Driver B to take over and Driver B runs train back over the crossover into northbound platform.
5. Driver A gets out of the rear cab and walks over to the southbound platform.
6. Driver B takes train out northbound.
7. When the next southbound train arrives, the process happens again, but Drive A is now the driver who gets into the rearmost cab etc.

It isn't rocket science and only requires one spare driver at the start of the service.

I suppose there is some arcane 19th century railway-related reason why such a straightforward process can'r happen and I await the inevitable flaming from those "in the know".

 

[Abpj17]

Yup - passengers can cope without the core - but ideally St P rather than Kentish Town!

LBSCR Times - has the system changed about a split service? Either FCC or the predecessor Thameslink did split the service on occasion and at reasonably short notice in some cases from memory (In Moorgate days where at least there weren’t any issues from turnarounds)

 

[zuriblue]

There needs to be some outside the (St Pancras) box thinking here.

1. Southbound terminating train runs into St P operated by driver (A).
2. Passengers disembark & spare driver (B) gets onto the train in the rearmost cab.
3. Driver B tells driver A he's on board & driver A drives train forwards past crossover.
4. Driver A tells Driver B to take over and Driver B runs train back over the crossover into northbound platform.
5. Driver A gets out of the rear cab and walks over to the southbound platform.
6. Driver B takes train out northbound.
7. When the next southbound train arrives, the process happens again, but Drive A is now the driver who gets into the rearmost cab etc.

It isn't rocket science and only requires one spare driver at the start of the service.

I suppose there is some arcane 19th century railway-related reason why such a straightforward process can'r happen and I await the inevitable flaming from those "in the know".

Isn't this what happens at Stratford on the Tube. Not quite the same I know since it's a terminating platform but when a JL train comes in in the peak Drive B is waiting at the far end of the train, Driver A brings the train in. Driver B goes into the (now) front cab, Driver A closes down the back cab, leaves the train, plunges a button on the platform to say that the back cab is clear and Driver B takes the train out. I've also seen it happen on the Mexico City Metro.

 

[smashing68]

The two driver system is 'Step-plate running' which happens at a few places on the tube - Brixton and Morden (in the peaks), for instance.

 

[Rich McLean]

Core is closed today, and very likely to be closed tomorrow, with trains terminating at St Pancake and Blackfriars respectively

Chaos will ensue

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Core is closed today, and very likely to be closed tomorrow, with trains terminating at St Pancake and Blackfriars respectively

Chaos will ensue

Any inside information on the "plan" for the morning ...?

 

[Rich McLean]

Any inside information on the "plan" for the morning ...?

Still under discussion at present I believe

 

[Southernrover]

The two driver system is 'Step-plate running' which happens at a few places on the tube - Brixton and Morden (in the peaks), for instance.

Its actually called Stepping Back as the incoming driver steps back onto a later departure.
It shortens reversing times.

 

[Abpj17]

Monday 26 January

Disruption is expected to affect services on Monday 26 January. An emergency timetable is currently being planned, but the following alterations can be expected:

A reduced service (four trains per hour) will run between Bedford and London St Pancras International
No trains will run through central London
A reduced service will run between London Blackfriars and the Wimbledon Loop / Brighton.

is the sketchy plan so far

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/your-journey/live-running-thameslink/

 

[westcoaster]

There needs to be some outside the (St Pancras) box thinking here.

1. Southbound terminating train runs into St P operated by driver (A).
2. Passengers disembark & spare driver (B) gets onto the train in the rearmost cab.
3. Driver B tells driver A he's on board & driver A drives train forwards past crossover.
4. Driver A tells Driver B to take over and Driver B runs train back over the crossover into northbound platform.
5. Driver A gets out of the rear cab and walks over to the southbound platform.
6. Driver B takes train out northbound.
7. When the next southbound train arrives, the process happens again, but Drive A is now the driver who gets into the rearmost cab etc.

It isn't rocket science and only requires one spare driver at the start of the service.

I suppose there is some arcane 19th century railway-related reason why such a straightforward process can'r happen and I await the inevitable flaming from those "in the know".

No need for all that both platforms are bi directional, train arrives into either platform, driver changes ends and of he goes North again, simples

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So 4 tph vice 14 tph - very serious issue - (I am hoping Thames Water get poked with a very sharp stick as a result - )

 

[The Box Photter]

It could be very bad indeed if the 4 tph from Bedford are all-stations. There's no way they'll be able to get anyone onto the trains south of Harpenden or St Albans.

As not all the slow line platforms can accommodate 12 car trains, they'll have to run 8 car trains at a time when the peak-loaded 12 car trains are full & standing by the time they leave Luton.

In the words of the song "I predict a riot..."

 

[21C101]

It could be very bad indeed if the 4 tph from Bedford are all-stations. There's no way they'll be able to get anyone onto the trains south of Harpenden or St Albans.

As not all the slow line platforms can accommodate 12 car trains, they'll have to run 8 car trains at a time when the peak-loaded 12 car trains are full & standing by the time they leave Luton.

In the words of the song "I predict a riot..."

Most trains in the high peak will be likely to be full by Luton.

Really can't see why they can only run 4ph. 6 or 8ph all stations ought to be more than feasible with 4ph Bedford & all stns to St A then fast, then 4ph all stns from st A.