Flooding at Farringdon

[Abpj17]

There was a burst water main...

Another potential problems is that it rained Friday night and the river fleet runs underground somewhere near there

 

[fusionblue]

Timetables now up.

Morning Peak: Six per hour in the peak, four from Bedford, fast from St Alb then west H and St P, two St albans to St Pan shuttles.

Offpeak 4 per hour all from Bedford, two fast from St Albans calling west H and St P only

Evening Peak: Six per hour all trains calling all stations!


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/posters/TLNorth.pdf

South of Thames timetable here (now correct timetable)

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/posters/TLSouth(1).pdf

The entire Sevenoaks route doesn't exist. Not mentioned on the timetable at all.

 

[DelayRepay]

The entire Sevenoaks route doesn't exist. Not mentioned on the timetable at all.

It's on Southeastern's website:

Monday 26 January: Disruption to services due to flooding in a tunnel between Farringdon and St Pancras
Thameslink services will be severely disrupted and services will not run between St Pancras and Farringdon. Please visit www.thameslinkrailway.com for more information.
There will be a half hourly service running between Sevenoaks and Blackfriars via Catford. These trains will stop at all stations.
Southeastern trains to Blackfriars will run as scheduled with the following exceptions:
05:45 Dover Priory to Blackfriars will be diverted to Victoria. After Rochester, it will run direct to Victoria.
07:41 Orpington to Blackfriars will be diverted to Victoria. After Denmark Hill, it will run direct to Victoria.
In the evening all Southeastern services will start at Blackfriars as scheduled.

 

[fusionblue]

It's on Southeastern's website:

But that doesn't tell me when the train is turning up - cue lots of people on that entire route unawares of the developing issues, rolling up to the station tomorrow morning (and possibly again on the return) and then find there's only 2tph. Coupled with no easy access to the tube/DLR they are simply going to be packed solid from Bromley.

I thought the whole point of transferring control of the sevenoaks route to Thameslink was so this "it's not our problem" attitude that ran all the way through FCC's life was meant to stop?

 

[DelayRepay]

But that doesn't tell me when the train is turning up - cue lots of people on that entire route unawares of the developing issues, rolling up to the station tomorrow morning (and possibly again on the return) and then find there's only 2tph. Coupled with no easy access to the tube/DLR they are simply going to be packed solid from Bromley.

I thought the whole point of transferring control of the sevenoaks route to Thameslink was so this "it's not our problem" attitude that ran all the way through FCC's life was meant to stop?

Yes - it's not very good is it? Along with all the 404s on the Thameslink website it suggests they are not really prepared for problems at the weekend affecting the Monday AM Peak.

A shame, after all the effort FCC made to try to improve communications during disruption.

 

[Bald Rick]

OK, so who turned the water back on?

If NR didn't know why water was flooding the track, it ought to have found out. Did NR just hope the water would recede naturally, in which case, there ought to have been contingency planning in case it started to flood again.

If NR did find out what was causing the flooding, what steps did it take to ensure the cause had been removed?

It sounds to me like NR was watching the floodwater go down and hoping for the best. In the meantime, GoVia should have been working out a contingency in case the flood wan't cleared by Monday am.

Hasn't anyone learned how to contingency plan, even after the Christmas Kings Cross farce?

FFS.

There's been pumps in there since Friday (at least). The leak got worse. You can't get bigger pumps in there as there is not space. It's Thames Water's main and an important one. It was turned off, but Thames Water turned it back on again (apparently without prior advice). Presumably, as being a big main it supplies a good-ish part of that area of London, including homes, hospitals, etc. Personally I don't know how local water supplies work, but one assumes that losing a big main like this one causes a major loss of pressure in a reasonably wide area.

The contingency plan is the one off the shelf for a core block. Naturally, TL wouldn't want to publish it unless they were reasonably sure it would be needed. Even now, there is a small chance if might get sorted.

No one in the rail industry has sat on their hands, and it is frankly wrong to suggest otherwise.

 

[The Box Photter]

There was a burst water main...

Another potential problems is that it rained Friday night and the river fleet runs underground somewhere near there

My understanding is that it wasn't the Fleet, but a Thames Water main.

Water mains can be turned off (allegedly it was turned off, but some gonk opened the valve again). It rains regularly in this country, but Farringdon tunnel doesn't flood this badly.

In any event, as the tunnel has flooded before, there should be an agreed and published contingency plan so everyone knows what to do.

Edited in light of post above. I assumed that there would be pumps in place, but if NR had no control over the Muppet at Thames Water it smacks of poor communication. Why did TW turn the water back on if the leak hadn't been fixed? It might not be NR or GoVia's fault that Thames Water decided to create a new underground watersports venue but if NR had no control over resolving the leak what was it doing? Until NR could hand back the track to GoVia the assumption should have been that a split service would operate and a decision could have been taken this morning. This would have allowed proper notification to have been given to intending passengers as well as allowing stock and drivers to be positioned correctly (as far as possible) for the am peak.

 

[LBSCR Times]

OK, so who turned the water back on?

If NR didn't know why water was flooding the track, it ought to have found out. Did NR just hope the water would recede naturally, in which case, there ought to have been contingency planning in case it started to flood again.

If NR did find out what was causing the flooding, what steps did it take to ensure the cause had been removed?

It sounds to me like NR was watching the floodwater go down and hoping for the best. In the meantime, GoVia should have been working out a contingency in case the flood wan't cleared by Monday am.

Hasn't anyone learned how to contingency plan, even after the Christmas Kings Cross farce?

Here we go again......

NR knew what the problem was, a burst water main.
Thames Water had managed to stop it as best they could, without disrupting a local hospital.
There were extra pumps brought in on Saturday, and that is why the water was receding, and consequently NR were anticipating no further issues.
So, they were just as surprised to find out on Sunday morning that something else had happened.

And yes, there are contingency plans in place for certain events, such as the core being shut, but they will not be uploaded to the database until Sunday evening.
Of course contingency plans on the railway are not as simple as you think, as no two circumstances are ever the same.
And the more complicated they are, the more that can go wrong due to misunderstandings.
But there is a plan in place, as is evident on the NRES website.
Just because it doesn't suit YOU doesn't mean there aren't any.

 

[EM2]

It sounds to me like NR was watching the floodwater go down and hoping for the best. In the meantime, GoVia should have been working out a contingency in case the flood wan't cleared by Monday am.

They've got one. It's been published.

Hasn't anyone learned how to contingency plan, even after the Christmas Kings Cross farce?

Please do tell us how to learn the intricacies of contingency planning, for every foreseeable eventuality, in less than a month?

 

[user15681]

But that doesn't tell me when the train is turning up - cue lots of people on that entire route unawares of the developing issues, rolling up to the station tomorrow morning (and possibly again on the return) and then find there's only 2tph. Coupled with no easy access to the tube/DLR they are simply going to be packed solid from Bromley.

I thought the whole point of transferring control of the sevenoaks route to Thameslink was so this "it's not our problem" attitude that ran all the way through FCC's life was meant to stop?

Plan was for XX:00 and XX:30 from Sevenoaks to Blackfriars, XX:12 and XX:42 Blackfriars to Sevenoaks. As always though, check with official sources like Journey Planners/NRE in the morning or TL/SE Twitter for the latest.

I'd agree though, it was disappointing to see the Sevenoaks route initially almost 'forgot' about. Published information on public channels just didn't mention it at all, or at least not to start with.

 

[fusionblue]

So i tweet both TL and SET asking them both for the timetable.

SET says there's a service between Sevenoaks and Blackfriars and Thameslink has the timings. Thameslink then says SET is planning the timetable.

It's amazing how the sevenoaks route feels like "the forgotten child" :roll:

 

[Abpj17]

My understanding is that it wasn't the Fleet, but a Thames Water main.

Water mains can be turned off (allegedly it was turned off, but some gonk opened the valve again). It rains regularly in this country, but Farringdon tunnel doesn't flood this badly.

I said it was a water main. Beyond that, perhaps I should have joined the dots better. Yes it does rain regularly. But when you've already got a leak/flooding, then rain on top of that is worse that just rain on its on. Similar with the river (which would be higher due to the rain) - adding all the bits together is worse than any one bit on its own.

 

[Gareth4949]

It appears the off peak London Bridge to Brightons have also been cancelled tomorrow
I don't see why they have to cancel these when the issue is at Fartingdon
The 19 min jourmey time of the off peak Blackfriars to Croydon seems optimistic as well
I'm sure that will lead to another nightmare day on the Brighton Main line

 

[user15681]

So i tweet both TL and SET asking them both for the timetable.

SET says there's a service between Sevenoaks and Blackfriars and Thameslink has the timings. Thameslink then says SET is planning the timetable.

It's amazing how the sevenoaks route feels like "the forgotten child" :roll:

That's frustrating.

It's Thameslink's responsibility now. Regardless of which company's planners are planning the timetable in the background (or, should I say, have planned the timetable), Thameslink run the route and are the public face, so they should be publishing the timetable. The takeover was intended to remove this confusion with only one operator publicly running the show.

 

[ModernRailways]

It appears the off peak London Bridge to Brightons have also been cancelled tomorrow
I don't see why they have to cancel these when the issue is at Fartingdon
The 19 min jourmey time of the off peak Blackfriars to Croydon seems optimistic as well
I'm sure that will lead to another nightmare day on the Brighton Main line

Not enough stock south of the Thames, possibly?

 

[Saint66]

EMT are tweeting that they're sharing some of their platforms with TL trains tomorrow?

 

[EM2]

EMT are tweeting that they're sharing some of their platforms with TL trains tomorrow?

Correct. Up until 05:00 tomorrow morning and outside the peak later on.

 

[Aictos]

Bald Rick, think I'm asking too much to assume though services by start of Thursday service as in 5am onwards?

Certainly don't expect miracles but do wonder as one is needed with all the aggro you guys are getting.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

https://twitter.com/search?q=#FarringdonTrains

Looking at them photos makes me wonder if it'll be at least the middle of Tuesday before they get the tunnel open again (by the time it's been drained and everything has been checked)

 

[DelayRepay]

Well I'm on a train, no idea if it's fast or slow (I assume slow as it's sat in Platform 1 at St Albans). It's already full and standing - I'm practically stood in the loo! Good luck to those who might want to get on at the next stations!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Other passengers are talking about a broken down train but I can't see anything online - anyone have any info?

 

[21C101]

Well I'm on a train, no idea if it's fast or slow (I assume slow as it's sat in Platform 1 at St Albans). It's already full and standing - I'm practically stood in the loo! Good luck to those who might want to get on at the next stations!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Other passengers are talking about a broken down train but I can't see anything online - anyone have any info?

Im on the one 10 mins behind u and just left a couple of hundred disgruntled pax at St Albans as too full. Now fast to west Hampstead.

To be honest i dont know why they bother stopping anything between St Albans and West Hampstead when this happens. No one will get on as all trains will be full by St Albans.

 

[Waddon]

Seems the word hasn't got through to the TFL website yet, journey planner still happily directing passengers to get the regular scheduled Thameslink service from St. Pancras to Blackfriars. I suppose it's not really their responsibility but even so, might be nice for it to be updated?

 

[DelayRepay]

Im on the one 10 mins behind u and just left a couple of hundred disgruntled pax at St Albans as too full. Now fast to west Hampstead.

Glad I set off early then! We did squeeze a few more on at Radlett but left people behind at every station after there. At Hendon ot took three attempts to close the doors.

At St Albans the barriers were open and the staff shoiting to passengers to go straight through and buy tickets at the other end. At St Pancras the barriers were closed. Hope nobody gets into trouble.

We arrived into the Northbound platform at St Pancras.

 

[Saint66]

A nation wide problem with display screens and online information I cant imagine is helping things either this morning (Multiple TOC's are reporting problems with it).

 

[21C101]

Glad I set off early then! We did squeeze a few more on at Radlett but left people behind at every station after there. At Hendon ot took three attempts to close the doors.

At St Albans the barriers were open and the staff shoiting to passengers to go straight through and buy tickets at the other end. At St Pancras the barriers were closed. Hope nobody gets into trouble.

We arrived into the Northbound platform at St Pancras.

Ive bailed out at west Hampstead and taken north and east london lines as did quite a few other pax. Whats the run into st Pancras and tube like?

 

[fusionblue]

That's frustrating.

It's Thameslink's responsibility now. Regardless of which company's planners are planning the timetable in the background (or, should I say, have planned the timetable), Thameslink run the route and are the public face, so they should be publishing the timetable. The takeover was intended to remove this confusion with only one operator publicly running the show.

So since then, SET have tweeted back saying they are responsible for the timetable on behalf of Thameslink and there is a "half hourly service between Sevenoaks and Blackfriars" which we knew from yesterday. That doesn't tell me anything about what time my train arrives - i got the information on various apps instead.

At the same time Thameslink changed their page to add "excluding Sevenoaks" next to the link to the timetable, before removing the PDF altogether. This morning at the station the ticket office was closed entirely and no additional notices about the issues that's been going on.

Now they're tweeting about "alternative travel routes" which don't provide any information between Denmark Hill to Sevenoaks :roll:

People have said that TL has been doing better with this issue, versus over christmas. But these particular issues have been going on for years and it's as poor as ever - FCC (and now TL) point to SET, and vice versa.

 

[DelayRepay]

Ive bailed out at west Hampstead and taken north and east london lines as did quite a few other pax. Whats the run into st Pancras and tube like?

Therun into St Pancras was fine - quite a few people got off at West Hampstead so there was breathing space again I was surprised to see people getting on at Kentish Town - as the train was only going one stop surely they would have been better getting the tube/bus?

When we got into St Pancras, there were a few people in my carriage who made no effort at all to get off, they just carried on reading their newspapers/listening to their ipods etc. They didn't seem to realise we were terminating at St Pancras or wonder why we had arrived on the wrong platform. Some people are odd!

Thameslink have tweeted that the emergency timetable has been withdrawn - didn't last long!

Can anyone from St Albans confirm if they're using the coaches yet - there were about five coaches parked up outside the station but when I travelled they were able to fit everyone on the train.

 

[Saint66]

Tweets from EMT:

#EMTUpdate Over 60,000 litres of water has now been cleared from the tunnel, the line is expected to be clear of water at 1200,1/2

#EMTUpdate inspections will then take place before trains can run. 2/2 (Quite probably replacement of cables/signalling...? So maybe we wont see a resumption till tomorrow?)

 

[mrmatt]

On the replacement 7:42 from Flitwick and we left people behind at St Albans. The usual fast 7:40 from Flitwick is 12 cars but they are running this as 8. Is it just a stock placement issue or did they have a choice and still run short? Was fast from St Albans to West Hampstead and I assume all those stations can take 12?

 

[Saint66]

First class declassified on TL trains today.