London bus driver strike over pay?

[Tetchytyke]

TfL contractors bid for routes, based on their costs including wages. If TfL set a higher pay rate then the cost of bids would have to rise. That would mean that either taxes in London would rise, or fares would rise (or both!).

The issue for the bus drivers is that the contractors bid and the lowest cost wins. Basically the only cost that the contractors control is staff costs, therefore each tender drives down wages.

Bus driving in London is pretty much the same job regardless of which depot you work out of. I don't think they're being unreasonable in wanting to be paid the same wage for the same job.

 

[TheKnightWho]

In Oxford the Oxford Brooks University bus routes are open to the public. I don't know why they don't do that at Kingston.

The Brookes buses stop outside the campuses, which aren't particularly big. A lot of university buses will go inside them where there are larger campuses, and unis generally don't want easy-access into the heart of campuses made available to the general public.

 

[Antman]

The Brookes buses stop outside the campuses, which aren't particularly big. A lot of university buses will go inside them where there are larger campuses, and unis generally don't want easy-access into the heart of campuses made available to the general public.

Brighton & Hove route 25 goes right into the Uni and is available to the public using ex London bendybuses

 

[Mikey C]

The issue for the bus drivers is that the contractors bid and the lowest cost wins. Basically the only cost that the contractors control is staff costs, therefore each tender drives down wages.

Bus driving in London is pretty much the same job regardless of which depot you work out of. I don't think they're being unreasonable in wanting to be paid the same wage for the same job.

Weren't tender costs going up a few years ago due to driver costs going up? If a contractor bids on the basis of paying lower wages and can't get the staff then surely they would then lose routes in the next tender.

 

[Antman]

An excellent bus service coupled with seriously low (by U.K. standard) fares, but it does require a lot of public money, not all from London ratepayers. Long may it continue, but it is no wonder that bus travellers in other regions compare their own areas unfavourably to the London experience.

However there are bus operators elsewhere in the UK doing a pretty good job without vast sums of public money, Brighton & Hove, Lothian, Reading and Nottingham to name a few

 

[Feathers44]

After all the preparation, we've been singularly unaffected by the strike today. Lots of busses out of Sutton so the kids got to school OK and enough 293s running that we got to Epsom and back with only one cancelled bus (and corresponding 20min wait). It's not looking that effective a strike from the pavement around here at the moment.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

An excellent bus service coupled with seriously low (by U.K. standard) fares, but it does require a lot of public money, not all from London ratepayers. Long may it continue, but it is no wonder that bus travellers in other regions compare their own areas unfavourably to the London experience.

Indeed, I can pay my taxes safe in the knowledge that, in my county, there are virtually no bus services after 2000, and that a large area has no Sunday service provision following cuts. That, and the latest wheeze is to cut Saturday services of which my local one is destined to go.

However, at least London can afford its own bespoke bus design.....

 

[Deerfold]

Figures from the TfL website suggest just under a quarter of buses on affected services were running at 1200.

 

[Mojo]

Haven't noticed the roads be any busier than on a usual weekday, although the pictures of a very empty Oxford Street did make me smile. I don't think this is that surprising as I would imagine that many bus customers do not own private motor vehicles anyway.

 

[Antman]

Haven't noticed the roads be any busier than on a usual weekday, although the pictures of a very empty Oxford Street did make me smile. I don't think is that surprising as I would imagine that many bus customers do not own private motor vehicles anyway.

The trains and tubes have copped the fall out

 

[Robertj21a]

The issue for the bus drivers is that the contractors bid and the lowest cost wins. Basically the only cost that the contractors control is staff costs, therefore each tender drives down wages.

Bus driving in London is pretty much the same job regardless of which depot you work out of. I don't think they're being unreasonable in wanting to be paid the same wage for the same job.

The TfL operators also use slightly different T+C's to show how they are different. One may have overtime, or shifts, paid slightly differently and some will accommodate different working arrangements - e.g 4-day weeks, no Sunday working etc

Each driver is free to work for whoever he chooses and can move on at any time, so the flexibility rests with him.

If you standardise pay, T+C's etc you might as well just go back to having one operators of all buses. Perhaps we should call it London Transport.

 

[Busaholic]

Figures from the TfL website suggest just under a quarter of buses on affected services were running at 1200.

I've been looking at the figures too, and would agree probably over 20% but under 25% are running: stripping out the routes running normally, on the other routes my estimate would be just over 20%, with many routes not operating at all, including some very important ones like the 8 and 73, and others with a tiny fraction of the usual buses e.g. 38,390,109,45,46,214. Some central areas are getting almost a full service e.g. Sloane Square with the 11,211,22 and 452 and pretty good on the 19 and 137. Abellio Battersea seems hardly to be affected and Brixton and Stockwell had large run-outs too. East London looks to be badly affected. Kingston is patchy, nothing on the 57, few on the 281 but 213 has a reasonable service in addition to the others altready quoted.

 

[Deerfold]

Bus routes past my office should have 67 buses on them. At 1200 they had 2 between them.

 

[Busaholic]

Bus routes past my office should have 67 buses on them. At 1200 they had 2 between them.

You should relocate to Sloane Square

 

[deltic]

So what would be the best outcome from this strike ? Can tfl force private bus companies to increase wages ? I can't see how they can all pay the same - one rate - when you have several train companies operating in London paying its staff different rates.

Yes and No - when Ken was Mayor and operators were struggling to recruit drivers a special top up payment was made by TfL to allow drivers to be paid more. TfL can also if they wanted (which they wont) specify minimum wage levels in future contracts. If memory serves me they can veto bids where they regard wages as too low and the operator in its view will not be able to recruit and retain staff to run the service reliably.

But outside of renewing contracts they can not force companies to increase wages without compensation payments

 

[infobleep]

Last night in my route when I left work there was 2 buses running. 2 281s less than 2 minutes apart. However they were 20 minutes away so no point in getting them. On my route home I was passed by just 1 bus, a K1. On some evenings I only see 2 buses go passed me so not that much different!

This morning as I got to the bus stop as a 282 pulled off. I let a 465 go as 2 71s were behind and the stop was busy now. I boarded the first one. It took about 3-4 minutes for people to board and then it waited at the stop for another 3 minutes whilst the bus behind left.

I eventually left the bus stop 10 minutes after I'd arrived. At least with less buses running you know where you stand . And you can walk. Thus morning the board said the bus was 2 minutes away. I wouldn't have bothered with the bus if I'd known it would take this long today.

I will be in work just after 9am. If I'd walked I'd been in about 3 minutes later than I will be! With the number of buses run in London it shouldn't be like that. My walk is 23 minutes and the bus journey is 6 minutes.

If I get to many of these experiences I end up walking. I walk in the evenings now because I can't guarantee I'll make my train unless I leave earlier and then it gets to the stage where it's not much slower to walk.
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The Brookes buses stop outside the campuses, which aren't particularly big. A lot of university buses will go inside them where there are larger campuses, and unis generally don't want easy-access into the heart of campuses made available to the general public.

Arriva buses in Guildford go through the Campus. Of course they also offer evening classes to non students so there are non students about at times anyway.

 

[notadriver]

So was the strike a success? London Underground have in the past used strikes to get what they want. Will the same happen here?

 

[Antman]

So was the strike a success? London Underground have in the past used strikes to get what they want. Will the same happen here?

I guess time will tell although I don't think it will achieve anything

 

[infobleep]

I doubt it achieved much to be honest. When people pay a pay as you go fare do the bus companies get that money or does it go to TFL, with TFL paying bus companies a flat rate to run the service? If the latter then the bus companies may not have lost money due to the strike. They may even have saved money as less wear and tear and fuel costs would have been racked up.

 

[Deerfold]

I doubt it achieved much to be honest. When people pay a pay as you go fare do the bus companies get that money or does it go to TFL, with TFL paying bus companies a flat rate to run the service? If the latter then the bus companies may not have lost money due to the strike. They may even have saved money as less wear and tear and fuel costs would have been racked up.

Bus companies are paid by the mile (the rate varies by route) with bonuses or penalties if there are even/uneven gaps between buses / long gaps.

With 25-35% of buses running, companies will have been paid 25-35% of normal for that day.

All fares go to TfL. With the abolition of cash fares the bus companies no longer even have to pass them on.

 

[notadriver]

It seems to be those suffering most were those reliant on buses in the suburbs where rail or tube services are not convenient. Apart from a little overcrowding central London being served so well by the tube was probably not as affected.

 

[Robertj21a]

So was the strike a success? London Underground have in the past used strikes to get what they want. Will the same happen here?

Can't see how it ever could have been a 'success'. The individual operators all have a range of benefits that make up a total package of pay and T+C's, so it can't be just about standardising pay rates anyway. As drivers don't, presumably, want to have lower pay in certain companies then the assumption must be that they will all want more pay until they are the same as whoever pays the most.

 

[infobleep]

Bus companies are paid by the mile (the rate varies by route) with bonuses or penalties if there are even/uneven gaps between buses / long gaps.

With 25-35% of buses running, companies will have been paid 25-35% of normal for that day.

All fares go to TfL. With the abolition of cash fares the bus companies no longer even have to pass them on.

Thanks for that. That's interesting. So it's certainly in their interests not to make to many strikes of this kind.
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It seems to be those suffering most were those reliant on buses in the suburbs where rail or tube services are not convenient. Apart from a little overcrowding central London being served so well by the tube was probably not as affected.

I don't know about Kingston station but Surbiton station didn't look any busier yesterday.

I wonder which road is the furthest distance from a rail or tube station and I wonder how length the distance is.

 

[Antman]

I heard reports of some angry scenes outside South Croydon garage with pickets giving abuse to Abellio drivers going past on the 407, the police turned up just to observe things.
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Can't see how it ever could have been a 'success'. The individual operators all have a range of benefits that make up a total package of pay and T+C's, so it can't be just about standardising pay rates anyway. As drivers don't, presumably, want to have lower pay in certain companies then the assumption must be that they will all want more pay until they are the same as whoever pays the most.

That's about the strength of it, TfL are not going to specify rates of pay and it would apparently be illegal for operators to agree rates of pay between themselves so I really don't see how anything is going to change.

 

[GodAtum]

That's about the strength of it, TfL are not going to specify rates of pay and it would apparently be illegal for operators to agree rates of pay between themselves so I really don't see how anything is going to change.

Ah I never though of it like that. What a waste of time!

 

[Carlisle]

I heard on LBC yesterday Unite have announced 3 new strike dates so the union clearly hasn't completely given up yet

 

[Deerfold]

Next one is due on Thursday.

 

[Robertj21a]

I heard on LBC yesterday Unite have announced 3 new strike dates so the union clearly hasn't completely given up yet

Quite. Not sure what planet the union is on at present.

 

[GodAtum]

According to my email:
• Thursday 5 February
• Friday 13 February
• Monday 16 February

Many people who rely on the bus (and declaring my interest including myself) and there are no other public transport alternatives. I am unable walk another few miles again to get to work (for reasons I wont mention publicly) :-x

 

[infobleep]

Given the snow outside and traffic today, if they had gone on strike today, I doubt people would have taken any longer to get to work by walking.