London bus driver strike over pay?

[notadriver]

96% of London bus drivers have agreed to strike over the fact their pay from one company to the other. They are also aggrieved they only typically get half the pay of train drivers while working more hours. Should bus drivers in London get 50k a year ?

Source : Online evening standard

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...-bus-drivers-for-strike-over-pay-9838183.html

 

[telstarbox]

There has to be a further ballot before any strike takes place.

London's 22,000 bus drivers today took the first step towards strike action as they bid to force bosses into introducing a single pay rate.

A Unite union ballot found 96 per cent of drivers were prepared to walkout unless London’s 17 bus operators agreed to end “glaringly unfair” pay disparities.

A strike could take place early in the New Year if approved in a further ballot and would be the first since drivers went on strike to secure a £577 bonus for working during the London Olympics.

There is no collective pay deal for bus drivers in the capital. Their pay is negotiated on a company by company basis, which Unite says leads to pay inequality.

Bus drivers typically earn less than half of a Tube driver’s £50,000 salary.

Unite wants bus operators to establish a collective negotiating forum that covers the pay and conditions for all London’s bus drivers.

 

[TUC]

These need to live in the real world and recognise that they work for different companies (and in any event will no doubt be covered TUPE when they move between companies.)

 

[Greenback]

I don't think it's helpful to compare bus driver pay rates with tube drivers, but I do think they deserve more than they get now.

 

[Tetchytyke]

These need to live in the real world and recognise that they work for different companies

They do the same job, with the same hours, within the same city, for the same contracting body. There should be no discrepancies with pay.

The drivers are entirely correct to be angry about this.

TUPE protects basic things for a limited period of time, unless the company has a good excuse, but that's it. It's not the magical protection that you seem to believe it to be.

YOu get collective bargaining in many fields. University staff are all paid according to one national scale, and pay rises are applied nationally, despite them all working for different compnaies.

 

[JamesRowden]

My hypothesis is that they want a rule that they all get payed the same: so that when they go on strike over pay in the future: it has the maximum effect.

 

[90sWereBetter]

As long as they don't strike on the 17th of January, they can strike whenever they want.

 

[notadriver]

When I did rail replacement last month the local company were being the usual local rate of around £8 an hour. London bus drivers from garages such as New Cross and Bexleyheath had also been drafted in and I'm told their rate of pay was around £15 an hour. Two of those drivers had been on stand by for nearly 6 hours and the controller then asked them to do a run as others had been stuck in traffic. They both refused and demanded to have their official break at the same time as they hadn't had one yet despite being on standby and having done nothing.

Summary - not all all london bus drivers are paid badly.

 

[Deerfold]

They do the same job, with the same hours, within the same city, for the same contracting body. There should be no discrepancies with pay.

Whilst they may have a point, I don't think it's true to say they do the same job.

How much does the average bus driver know about track safety? Would both be treated the same if they missed a stop out or would one be a much more serious incident?

It's a lot harder to get a job as an Underground driver than a bus driver.

 

[notadriver]

Whilst they may have a point, I don't think it's true to say they do the same job.

How much does the average bus driver know about track safety? Would both be treated the same if they missed a stop out or would one be a much more serious incident?

It's a lot harder to get a job as an Underground driver than a bus driver.

I think he is comparing different bus companies within London. All pay slightly differently - starter rates, unsocial hours and whatnot are all different.

 

[jon0844]

There are some really bad London bus drivers, but the quality drops off even more if you leave the capital.

I regard train drivers as professionals, paid a lot for skills they don't need to necessarily use all the time, but might need to do at any time. A need to have knowledge that is not dissimilar to a London black cab driver, which a bus driver does not have.

A driver has to drive safely, which doesn't always happen, and probably just uses the radio to call for assistance for things that a train driver might have to deal with him or herself.

There's also the high turnover of bus drivers, as in just about anyone can do it - and as such, said drivers have less bargaining power than, say, a train driver or airline pilot.

 

[455driver]

Whats the difference between London bus drivers being paid different rates and train drivers being paid different rates (even within the same company)?

I am confused by it all and, if the facts as listed are all what the strike is over, then it seems a bit of a daft idea!

Note supermarket analogy-
Do Asda, Morrisons, Sainsburys, Waitrose, Lidl, Aldi etc all pay the same rates.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Whilst they may have a point, I don't think it's true to say they do the same job.

I was comparing a bus driver with Arriva London to a bus driver with Metroline, not a bus driver with a tube driver. I don't think bus driving is as skilled a job as tube driving.

 

[notadriver]

Whats the difference between London bus drivers being paid different rates and train drivers being paid different rates (even within the same company)?

I am confused by it all and, if the facts as listed are all what the strike is over, then it seems a bit of a daft idea!

Note supermarket analogy-
Do Asda, Morrisons, Sainsburys, Waitrose, Lidl, Aldi etc all pay the same rates.

Of course they pay different pay rates in different areas. I think the bus drivers see themselves as being under the TFL umbrella. TFL runs the tube and all tube staff drivers, station staff etc get the same rate so logically i suppose all bus drivers should too.

 

[Deerfold]

I was comparing a bus driver with Arriva London to a bus driver with Metroline, not a bus driver with a tube driver. I don't think bus driving is as skilled a job as tube driving.

Yes, I mislinked there.

 

[Antman]

When I did rail replacement last month the local company were being the usual local rate of around £8 an hour. London bus drivers from garages such as New Cross and Bexleyheath had also been drafted in and I'm told their rate of pay was around £15 an hour. Two of those drivers had been on stand by for nearly 6 hours and the controller then asked them to do a run as others had been stuck in traffic. They both refused and demanded to have their official break at the same time as they hadn't had one yet despite being on standby and having done nothing.

Summary - not all all london bus drivers are paid badly.

Strictly speaking those drivers were correct, being on standby is not the same as being on break.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course they pay different pay rates in different areas. I think the bus drivers see themselves as being under the TFL umbrella. TFL runs the tube and all tube staff drivers, station staff etc get the same rate so logically i suppose all bus drivers should too.

Why leave it there? Should all Arriva drivers get paid the same across the UK....

After all, they're all doing the same job for the same business?

 

[455driver]

I was comparing a bus driver with Arriva London to a bus driver with Metroline, not a bus driver with a tube driver. I don't think bus driving is as skilled a job as tube driving.

Oh its more skilled cuz they hav to do du steeerin as weull!

 

[PeterC]

Why leave it there? Should all Arriva drivers get paid the same across the UK....

After all, they're all doing the same job for the same business?

When I worked for a national company everybody was on the same pay scales. There was a market suppliment (not pensionable) in areas where recruitment was difficult.

 

[Busaholic]

When I did rail replacement last month the local company were being the usual local rate of around £8 an hour. London bus drivers from garages such as New Cross and Bexleyheath had also been drafted in and I'm told their rate of pay was around £15 an hour. Two of those drivers had been on stand by for nearly 6 hours and the controller then asked them to do a run as others had been stuck in traffic. They both refused and demanded to have their official break at the same time as they hadn't had one yet despite being on standby and having done nothing.

Summary - not all all london bus drivers are paid badly.

Perhaps you work for the wrong company. London United are currently advertising for frivers to cover rail replacement work at 'between £10 and £15 per hour.'

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Re comments about bus drivers not as skilled as train drivers...

do train drivers have to deal with awkward passengers, drunks, etc?

do train drivers have to avoid idiot cyclists who believe they have the right to share their "track" but not obey any of the rules (including observing red signals)?

do train drivers have to deal with other traffic on their track who believe their train has absolutely no right to be there?

do train drivers have to take fares, be responsible for the takings (even when mugged for those takings), give out route information, timetable information, fares information, general tourist information... all whilst still remaining on schedule?

do train drivers have to do running repairs to keep their train running?

I suspect the answer to all the above questions is a resounding "NO".

we bus drivers DO have to do these things... we do not have the luxury of sitting in our cabs with nothing to do but accelerate and brake in the right places.

Truth is, if the bus industry hadn't been broken up, deregulated and privatised then our wages would have continued rising the same way that those of train drivers did. We would be paid commensurate with our professional status and would currently be on a wage of between £18- £25 ph depending on which part of the country we work in. (that works out at 32.5-45.5k per annum) about the same as a train driver per chance?

truth is BOTH are highly skilled and highly responsible jobs in their own way... just that train drivers are paid what they are worth and bus drivers aren't!

 

[notadriver]

Perhaps you work for the wrong company. London United are currently advertising for frivers to cover rail replacement work at 'between £10 and £15 per hour.'

Probably true - living where I do would mean a 2 hour trip into London to pick up the vehicle and the same afterwards so it wouldn't be worth it for me.

 

[ECML180]

Bus drivers are definitely underpaid, as mentioned above by Teflon Lettuce, they have a lot of roles to undertake as well as the stress of doing a safety critical job very firmly in the eye of the public. However, in the event of an accident/incident, they hold less responsibility than train drivers and when they make a mistake(we're all human!) the consequences are less severe.

I think comparing bus drivers to train drivers is unrealistic given that the only real similarity is that they both drive things(and even then the driving of both is very different). Likewise between companies - drivers are often expected to do different things! If one company operated all the buses with the same procedures, rules and responsibilities applied to every driver then fair enough, same pay. Otherwise...the jobs are all still (subtly) different.

 

[Busaholic]

Bus drivers are definitely underpaid, as mentioned above by Teflon Lettuce, they have a lot of roles to undertake as well as the stress of doing a safety critical job very firmly in the eye of the public. However, in the event of an accident/incident, they hold less responsibility than train drivers and when they make a mistake(we're all human!) the consequences are less severe.

I think comparing bus drivers to train drivers is unrealistic given that the only real similarity is that they both drive things(and even then the driving of both is very different). Likewise between companies - drivers are often expected to do different things! If one company operated all the buses with the same procedures, rules and responsibilities applied to every driver then fair enough, same pay. Otherwise...the jobs are all still (subtly) different.

Absolutely agree with all of the above. To take it to a higher level (pun intended) a pilot has more responsibility still and has to undergo a heck of a lot more training. Would anyone seriously suggest that because pilots don't collect fares or have to deal with unruly passengers then their job is less responsible than a bus driver's and should be no better remunerated?

I wish the lesser-paid amongst the London drivers well, so that least parity with the better-off ones is achieved. What could increase their pay generally would be a shortage of drivers if service levels increased in line with the extra passengers being carried, which is simply not nearly the case. The outer suburbs in particular have experienced large uplifts in passenger volume which are unable to be satisfactorily catered for as so much of TfL's declining budget is being wasted on the superfluous New Bus for London.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps you work for the wrong company. London United are currently advertising for frivers to cover rail replacement work at 'between £10 and £15 per hour.'

Perhaps can someone explain to me what a friver is. Is it a special industry term applied to those who drive Rail Replacement bus services?

 

[Busaholic]

Perhaps can someone explain to me what a friver is. Is it a special industry term applied to those who drive Rail Replacement bus services?

They're the ones that shout 'Mind the Foors'. Often ex-caddies.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Bus drivers are definitely underpaid, as mentioned above by Teflon Lettuce, they have a lot of roles to undertake as well as the stress of doing a safety critical job very firmly in the eye of the public. However, in the event of an accident/incident, they hold less responsibility than train drivers and when they make a mistake(we're all human!) the consequences are less severe.

REALLY? in the event of an accident/ incident a bus driver has less responsibility? what planet are you on... in the event of an accident a bus driver is usually on his own until such time as the emergency services arrive...unlike a train driver who is likely to have other crew members to help. yet again we have someone here that thinks train drivers are gods but bus drivers are probably the dregs of society!

I think comparing bus drivers to train drivers is unrealistic given that the only real similarity is that they both drive things(and even then the driving of both is very different). Likewise between companies - drivers are often expected to do different things! If one company operated all the buses with the same procedures, rules and responsibilities applied to every driver then fair enough, same pay. Otherwise...the jobs are all still (subtly) different.

I think that comparing the way that train driver's wages have, over the last 30 years, continued to rise comensurate with the responsibility and inflation whilst bus drivers wages have stagnated is a fair comment and comparison.

as an example, in Luton the wage rate for bus drivers at deregulation in 1986 was £6.05/hr. at privatisation they took a 10% pay CUT and even now 28 yrs later they are only on £11/hr. My point was that, had wages continued to rise in line with inflation (as train drivers wages have done), bus drivers would be on almost twice the rate they currently enjoy.

surely, as bus drivers are considered PROFESSIONAL then they deserve to be paid a PROFESSIONAL rate? after all would a lawyer or doctor work for £10/hr? I think not.

 

[ECML180]

REALLY?

Yes! I don't doubt that being on their own does change things slightly, but train drivers must know rules, procedures and such for many eventualities and ultimately have more passengers and travel faster. I admit, it is oversimplified but bus drivers often just 'call it in' to the depot/emergency services and that is their job done essentially.

yet again we have someone here that thinks train drivers are gods but bus drivers are probably the dregs of society!

I think that's an unreasonable comment to make and I'd like to hear your evidence for it. :roll:

surely, as bus drivers are considered PROFESSIONAL then they deserve to be paid a PROFESSIONAL rate?

I see a lot of bus drivers wave around the term 'professional' without really acting it, it is unfortunate but it's these people who seem to complain about pay yet remove any public support to increase it!

Look at the rail industry, every driver has to have type training and route learning as well as ongoing competency assessments. Conversely it's often the case of 'any bloke in any bus', the big groups are better for formalised training but just look at some of the shoddy independents with people sent out on a route they were shown once a few years ago in a bus they've never driven.

If the bus industry was truly full of professionals then please explain how the system of training and competence is so poor and lacking compared to the rail or aviation industries.

 

[455driver]

When I was a bus driver, 'route learning' consisted of a scrap of paper with some lines drawn on it!

No, I am serious, I still have a few packed away somewhere!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Yes! I don't doubt that being on their own does change things slightly, but train drivers must know rules, procedures and such for many eventualities and ultimately have more passengers and travel faster. I admit, it is oversimplified but bus drivers often just 'call it in' to the depot/emergency services and that is their job done essentially.



I think that's an unreasonable comment to make and I'd like to hear your evidence for it. :roll:



I see a lot of bus drivers wave around the term 'professional' without really acting it, it is unfortunate but it's these people who seem to complain about pay yet remove any public support to increase it!

Look at the rail industry, every driver has to have type training and route learning as well as ongoing competency assessments. Conversely it's often the case of 'any bloke in any bus', the big groups are better for formalised training but just look at some of the shoddy independents with people sent out on a route they were shown once a few years ago in a bus they've never driven.

If the bus industry was truly full of professionals then please explain how the system of training and competence is so poor and lacking compared to the rail or aviation industries.

the route to becoming a bus driver is NOT an easy or simple process.

1st you have to pass your car test.. you then have to wait 2 years before you can take your bus test... which in itself is not an easy process... you then have regularly undergo retraining to retain your driver CPC. ANY company worth it's salt will then give type training, route training and ticket training before allowing a driver loose on the public on their own.

as to "just calling it in" really? so a passenger is taken ill on the bus or , God forbid, is injured in an accident and the driver just "calls it in" and watches the passenger dying in front of his eyes?

yes there are unscrupulous operators within the bus industry that bring it into disrepute... that they continue to operate is a failure of the regulatory regime (traffic commissioners) yes there are many examples of poor and inadequate training. that is the fault of the operator concerned.

to turn the argument on it's head... are you seriously telling me that there has never been an accident on the railways due to driver incompetence? are you telling me that no train driver has ever been dismissed for poor standards of professionalism? should all train drivers be judged by the standards of those that aren't up to the job?

yes train drivers do travel faster and with more passengers... but as I stated before, if the signallers and controllers are doing their job properly, train drivers do not have to contend with every idiot sharing their track... unlike bus drivers who have to contend with driving an "invisible" vehicle.

I note you didn't reply to my main point that bus driver's wages have stagnated over the last 30 years whilst train drivers wages have continued to rise.