What was/is the best class design ever made?

[Phoenix]

Basically a simple disscusion that is what was or is the best design for a loco/unit ever made and id like to point out the being biased isnt what i am looking for there has got to be real reasons for your choice.
Theres no voting involved just a general disscusion.

NOW FIRE AWAY.

 

[Nym]

I'm gonna get linched now, the Pacers

 

[Phoenix]

That's a good choice have you got any reasons for choosing them.

 

[Respite]

Brush type 4 (47)
Not perfect at any one thing, just good at everything!

 

[Phoenix]

good choice there still around today so probably one of tyhe best candidates.

 

[Tom C]

400 Series EMU's on the SR

Solidly built, simple and easy to fix, simple and easy to drive, simple yet comfortable interiors and astonishing reliability.

Perfect for all manner of work be it suburban metro stoppers or London to Brighton fasts they just fit in everywhere.

The replacements just cannot and never will be able to compete with the all round greatness of these units and the Southern Region is a desperately dull and sad place without them.

 

[Nym]

Because they did what they where designed to do, and still do...

 

[Tom C]

and still do...

Surely not the two toys on the Lymington Branch????

They just don't count!!

 

[me123]

303s. They were working very efficiently, and were very popular, until their final day. About 40 near-perfect years in service.

A more modern train, the 156, also stands out for me. They're still going strong, they appear much younger than they are and they are extremely versatile! Not many trains that can be popular on WHL runs as well as providing efficient commuter services.

And the HST Class 43 fleet. I don't ever recall being major problems with the fleet, and their introduction with GC proves they are still a popular choice. Whilst the MTUification isn't popular among us enthusiasts, it extends the life of the trains and if a TOC is willing to do that rather than rush new trains into service, they must like them.

 

[Phoenix]

And the HST Class 43 fleet. I don't ever recall being major problems with the fleet, and their introduction with GC proves they are still a popular choice. Whilst the MTUification isn't popular among us enthusiasts, it extends the life of the trains and if a TOC is willing to do that rather than rush new trains into service, they must like them.

also another addition to a good arguement the class 43's initially were only ment to be a short term stock gap.
Say's it all really.

 

[Dennis]

Has to be class 37 - around since the days of steam, capable of pulling just about anything and of course the wonderful sound.

 

[me123]

^How could I forget them?

 

[O L Leigh]

Gronks: Literally hundreds of the blighters liberally sprinkled right across the whole country and giving sterling service for absolutely years, and still they're going strong. They should still be with us for a while as, unlike the Tractors and Duffs (and others for that matter), they aren't fighting a rearguard action against an overwhelming tide of modern replacements. Indeed, I'm not even aware that replacing these little workhorses is even being discussed.

Not bad for something built to a design first penned by the LMS.

O L Leigh

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Personally... no bias honest I have to vote for the HST's.... considering they were a temporary answer they have done really well and its nice to see they're still going strong and continuing to be a popular choice of rolling stock not only for the bigger companys FGW and NX namely but for the smaller operators like GCR

 

[175001]

I agree, the HST is the best class ever built. The fact that its still going strong shows that its reputation for a fast, efficient and reliable service is still evident today. And with TOC's refitting them with MTU's, this show's that they are still going to be around for years to come.

Also, even thought, they're not a loco, a little note for Mk3 stock. Demand for them today is incredible, and show how succesful they have been on the network!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Metro Cammell Blue Pullman:

http://www.railcar.co.uk/hisOthers/BPintro.htm

 

[P156KWJ]

4XX slammers in the SR, and class 43 valentas. I very much like 37s, peaks, and 47s.

 

[schmoo_smith]

class 43, no questions asked, its the the best train ever built!

 

[devon_metro]

I'll go with the Mk3 coach due to the excellent comfort, ride quality, atmosphere and versatility. Obviously the recent refurbs aren't a touch on the original batch but beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Mr Spock]

Actually saw one of the best locos ever today at Coventry when 6201 Princess Elizabeth passed through.

 

[yorkie]

Pacers - about 5,000 miles per casualty (mpc).
400 series EMUs - about 50,000 mpc.

Anyone saying Pacers are the best design of train ever made is crazy in my opinion Sure, a ride on them on joined track can be fun, but from a passenger perspective they were a major downgrade from the comfortable first gen DMUs they replaced, and from a maintenance point of view they are awful. They are not exactly flexible either, being totally unsuited to tightly curved routes.

The HSTs have to be the most successful revolutionary train built in the UK though, they transformed the fortune of BR, and are still very sought-after even today over 30 years later. So much so that ex-loco hauled coaches have been converted for use in HSTs and yet more will be converted for XC.

From an enthusiast perspective, English Electric diesel locos such as 37s, 40s, 20s and the Thumper DEMUs are arguably the 'best' in my view, along with Valentas of course ...

 

[class 313]

Unit = EMU Class 319
Loco = EE Type 3

 

[Tom C]

400 series EMUs - about 50,000 mpc.

Thats quite a rough guide

You have to remember that there were oftern periods where subclasses would go the entire period without failing once. 421/8's were the very last to do so just two months before South West Trains withdrew them.

357's are the only class which came close to knocking the old 400's off the top and thats becuase they pop between Shoebury and Fenchurch Street all day long. 400's were forever splitting and joining giving plenty of opportunity for calimity and plenty of 5 minute delays but that rarely happened.

Chris Green, then head of NSE, went of record saying that EPB's (which dated from 1951 and were finally killed off in 1995) were "only" achieveing 20,000 between failures after years of neglect yet the Networkers which replaced them have never so much as touched 20,000 with all the care and attention going.

Nuff said

 

[AlexS]

The HSTs have to be the most successful revolutionary train built in the UK though

Were they built by Comrade Lenin

 

[Donny Dave]

I don't know how anyone can say Pacers are the best designed train ever ....

As Yorkie says, they get at best about 5000mpc, although the true figure is more like 2-3000mpc. That is all varients of the Pacer family. The ride quality is appalling, and crash worthiness, well I'll say no more ....

For the best design, I'll have to say the 37s. They could handle (semi) fast trains, and heavy freight (although in multiple). They may have been a master of nothing, but they are a solid all-round loco.

 

[P156KWJ]

As Yorkie says, they get at best about 5000mpc, although the true figure is more like 2-3000mpc. That is all varients of the Pacer family. The ride quality is appalling, and crash worthiness, well I'll say no more ....

Fair enough - pacers weren't exactly designed for the world show - but they're fit for purpose. However - agreed that 1st gen DMUs were comfier - very much like 101s and 117s I do!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Hmm well I'd say Pacers as I like them but not as a design, more of the fun of riding them, I do like riding on the comfy seated 144s though!

A 143 from Taunton - Cardiff was a bit too much though!

As for locomotives, I like the monsterous 55s, for their unique twin engine Napiers, the noise they make (especially when the no. 2 engine whirrs up at 25mph!) and the power they have!

EMU's Im not much a fan of. But the best design is my favorite 442s and 458s.


Cheers,
James

 

[Edvid]

You have to remember that there were oftern periods where subclasses would go the entire period without failing once. 421/8's were the very last to do so just two months before South West Trains withdrew them.
357's are the only class which came close to knocking the old 400's off the top and thats becuase they pop between Shoebury and Fenchurch Street all day long. 400's were forever splitting and joining giving plenty of opportunity for calimity and plenty of 5 minute delays but that rarely happened.
Chris Green, then head of NSE, went of record saying that EPB's (which dated from 1951 and were finally killed off in 1995) were "only" achieveing 20,000 between failures after years of neglect yet the Networkers which replaced them have never so much as touched 20,000 with all the care and attention going. Nuff said

If anyone would like to see more MPC stats Roger Ford has compiled a list of Informed Sources articles on his website - from 2004 all the 'January' articles have a section dedicated to the MPC figures (or MP5MD as he calls it these days). The latest MP5MD article is not yet available there but if you have a January 2008 copy of Modern Railways you'll find it there.

Here are some titbits from the latest [2007/08] MP5MD analysis:

Seven sub-class groups achieved a P7 Moving Annual Average figure of 30,000+ (of which 6 are 'post-privatisation')
Sub-class - P7 MAA (P7 actual)
Silverlink 321 - 49,244 (80,734)
c2c 357 - 45,459 (40,521)
Gatwick Express 460 - 40,688 (115,317)
One 360 - 35,379 (64,483)
South West Trains 444 - 33,908 (28,654)
Southeastern 375/(8,9) - 32,579 (32,870)
Southern 377/3 - 30,004 (28,522)

All the 'Intercity' sets improved from the previous year with P7 MAA figures of 8,000+, and the MML HST P7 actual figure (17,790) was bettered only by the GNER IC225s (19,619).

There is no denying the legendary reliability of the Mk1s (although even they are put to shame by the EMUs of the West Rail (KCR) route in Hong Kong, where the MP3MD MAA figure was 238,992 in 2006, and no 5+ minute failures occured whatsoever!) but many new(-ish) EMUs are starting to achieve respectable figures in general (not just the 357s, which I believe have not fluctuated that much over the last few years), and Roger Ford is fairly confident that we'll see a fair number of EMUs with P7 MAA figures of 40,000+ next year.

 

[Tom C]

Silverlink 321 - 49,244 (80,734)
c2c 357 - 45,459 (40,521)
Gatwick Express 460 - 40,688 (115,317)
One 360 - 35,379 (64,483)
South West Trains 444 - 33,908 (28,654)
Southeastern 375/(8,9) - 32,579 (32,870)
Southern 377/3 - 30,004 (28,522)

Well to break these down a tad.........321's are BR built and are AC, 357's are AC, 460's live a very, very charmed life, 360's are AC and the last three are much better than previous years but still a long way from being "respectable".

And if I may just go back to the figures which are quoted by this "informed source" for 2004.

South West Trains
Class 421/5 118,323 (102,487)
Class 421/4 60,534 (78,653)
Class 412 61,118 (69,208)

Its hard to get particularly excited about that 444 figure after that is it?

Southern and South Eastern had started the wind down by this time and units were being withdrawn on exam and were only being worked on if it was a simple job.

South West Trains continued to work on 400 series units despite the short shelve life by this time, infact they were still painting units knowing that they would be withdrawn in a matter of months and in some cases days. If the other two operators had followed suit then there would be an even harder job for Bombardier as it is for Siemens.

There is no denying the legendary reliability of the Mk1s (although even they are put to shame by the EMUs of the West Rail (KCR) route in Hong Kong, where the MP3MD MAA figure was 238,992 in 2006, and no 5+ minute failures occured whatsoever!) but many new(-ish) EMUs are starting to achieve respectable figures in general (not just the 357s, which I believe have not fluctuated that much over the last few years), and Roger Ford is fairly confident that we'll see a fair number of EMUs with P7 MAA figures of 40,000+ next year.

Any EMU which runs on AC should be capable of achieveing respectable figures. New DC units which are stuffed with technology which lead to an enormous power supply upgrade on the SR which cost millions of pounds should be doing much better. The problem is the DC power supply isn't really enough to run all the electrical equipment that is on these new units/

An example is the 365's ,which were new to what is now South Eastern, were the worst performing EMU's in the entire country (even worse than the 508's). Move them to WAGN and put pantographs on so they get the power they need to run effectively and the MPC figure rockets.

What is an achievement is the fact that 3 phase EMU's are now more reliable then the BR built counterparts (319, 455 etc etc) and for once the thought of 377/2's on Thameslink does have some merits providing FCC get into the same engineering habits as Southern and South Eastern.

 

[Philip]

185s are nice looking and seem quite reliable for a new train. Just need the 4th carriage so they can cope with the crowds...