Are there any potential Open Access Routes left?

[cuccir]

Are there any current Open Access routes that don't go to London?

No, although they have been proposed in the past (the GNWR proposals at one stage included a Liverpool-Hull service I think?).

The two busiest unconnected stations outside of London are currently Birmingham - Brighton: indeed, Brighton's lack of long-distance services but status as 6th busiest station outside of London means that since the withdrawal of this route, Brighton - Birmingham - Manchester is an obvious route from the point of view of possible demand, though don't know about capacity (and of course, it does pass through Western London).

 

[nuneatonmark]

Well, Nuneatonmark is wrong. There haven't been any new operators or routes but Grand Central has expanded its operations. These have required approval and have indeed been approved.

Clearly I did not mean existing open access operators expanding their services!!!!
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I'd love to see Leamington-Coventry-Nuneaton-Leicester-Nottingham/Derby. Could extend south to Oxford and north to Sheffield.

It won't happen, due to cutting across the main lines at Coventry and Nuneaton, but it'd fulfil a need. Leicester to Leamington, for example, is terribly inconvenient by train at the moment.

Are there any current Open Access routes that don't go to London?

There was a very popular Coventry to Nottingham service which reversed at Nuneaton before the WCML upgrade. However a frequent Nuckle 2 Leamington to Nuneaton service and a re-instated Nuneaton to Nottingham service could meet the same objectives.

 

[Jonny]

No, although they have been proposed in the past (the GNWR proposals at one stage included a Liverpool-Hull service I think?).

The two busiest unconnected stations outside of London are currently Birmingham - Brighton: indeed, Brighton's lack of long-distance services but status as 6th busiest station outside of London means that since the withdrawal of this route, Brighton - Birmingham - Manchester is an obvious route from the point of view of possible demand, though don't know about capacity (and of course, it does pass through Western London).

That might also be a go-er, especially if it runs on the WCML south of Brum and stops at Kensington Olympia and/or Gatwick Airport. Subject, of course, to paths and rolling stock.

 

[NLC1072]

If anybody remembers the Anglia turbostars that use to go around the North London Line called Crosslink, I think something similar to that could work.

Trains staring at Colchester Town, calling at Colchester, Witham, Chelmsford, Romford, Stratford, Canonbury, Highbury and Islington, Camden Road, Gospel Oak, West Hampsted, Willesden Junction, Staines, Woking, Farnborough Main, Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway and Southampton Central.

Advertise it PROPERLY as a premium service avoiding the hassle of London, whilst serving some good London shopping districts and good onward connections either side of London.

 

[Class377]

The only real route that I think would be able to attract a decent passenger flow would be from London to somewhere like Shrewsbury or the surrounding area.

Of course, it's similar to the Wrexham & Shropshire idea. They showed that it's not feasible. Open access is harder than most people think...

 

[jopsuk]

The Anglia "London Crosslink" wasn't just poorly advertised, it was poorly timetabled. Wikipedia has an example timetable.

Issues:

you're trying to run through very busy railway lines. Capacity is an issue on the GEML, NLL and SWML.

I guess the ideal stock would be 110mph capable dual voltage EMUs - four car would easily fit, but were it to be successful could 8-car (possibly using SDO) work?

I reckon the Basingstoke-Southampton section may be considered abstractive

 

[northwichcat]

You can have any Open Access route you want but most applications have been for Intercity services to/from London as they are potentially the most lucrative.

 

[Suraggu]

Id be surprised if an open access service on the WCML is not approved eventually. I wouldn't be surprised in the next WCML franchise spec didn't include a Victoria to London service to try to avoid it. I can't see 3tph between Piccadilly and London being enough until 2030 and I am not sure its possible to squeeze a fourth service in. From 2021 a electric MML application is very possible.

Id be surprised if Alliance don't get something out of its GNER bids. There is a geuine point about attracting more customers from Scotland to London flights but I think 1tph is taking the mick. I wouldn't be surprised if they got 7 or 8 Scotland - London paths per day though. If Grand Centrals application was accepted its not umfeasible that Bradford/Ilkely - Leeds - London will be, it just appears like a way of running electric Bradford - Londom services with the added bonus of stopping in Leeds (I got off a Grand Central train from London at Wakefield recently and allot got off to go to Leeds).

That has been solved with the next ECML franchise Inter City Railways.
In the bid has an extra 4 trains to and from London from 2016. This will make the service roughly half hourly between London & Edinburgh.
From 2020 their will be more trains between London and Edinburgh with an end to end journey time of 4 hours.

 

[Aictos]

One route they could do which wouldn't be a London bound service would be if possible to run 4 or 5 return services between Nottingham and Carlisle/Lancaster via Leeds which would fit in between the existing Northern services.

Or if possible, work out a way to run extra NYMR services but from Whitby to Middlesborough using the Class 101 DMU which would fit in between the existing Northern Rail services.

Yes I know the NYMR is a preserved railway but they could in theory have a company setup to operate a open access route between Middlesborough and Whitby which would be of benefit to the local communities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would a 'First Class only' service be permitted?

That's a very interesting question. Of course, their dedicated tickets would be Standard "with a free upgrade" in order to allow expense fudging. Ahem.

There is, after all, a precedent in the airline industry for this kind of thing.

Neil

 

[Chester1]

4tph was always the plan but you are pretty much fixed from 2017-2026 as Euston wont be able to deal with it.

There are solutions to this after Cross Rail, extending it north of Tring or putting more commuter services on it to free up more capacity at Euston. An alternative would be to switch one of the New Street - Euston services to Moor Street - Marlebone. 2 Pendalinos (11 coach) on the WCML and 2 double Meredians or Voyagers (i.e. 10 coaches) with both routes taking 90 mins would work for a while, maybe with a third fast 10 coach Chiltern Service being needed at some point before 2026. It would need another Chiltern upgrade but considering that GNWR and Chilterns are both owned by Arriva its possible to do. Reducing New Street - Euston services to half hourly switching the two pendalinos freed to Birmingham - Scotland services and cascading 4 Voyagers that would be freed to Chiltern would need to be in the next WCML franchise spec because Virgin would never agree in a million years. At least another 4 voyagers or Meridians would need to be found as well. The bigger capacity problem is Stockport and I don't know how that can be solved, running a fourth Manchester-London service from Victoria seems like the best option.

That has been solved with the next ECML franchise Inter City Railways.
In the bid has an extra 4 trains to and from London from 2016. This will make the service roughly half hourly between London & Edinburgh.
From 2020 their will be more trains between London and Edinburgh with an end to end journey time of 4 hours.

There is still potential for more traffic considering that more people fly from Scotland to London than take the train. East Coast franchise holders have been rubbish at competing so 7 or 8 open access services tailored to attract airline passengers makes sense.

 

[Camden]

That's a very interesting question. Of course, their dedicated tickets would be Standard "with a free upgrade"

Great point.

Particularly given the government has seen fit to put a monetary cap on things like housing benefit, it's only right that simply allowing "standard class" travel on expenses isn't a tight enough restriction.

Instead a formula needs to be arrived at to compensate for a reasonable level of standard class expense up to a limit (say 30p a mile), and if the expense claimant wishes to pay more than that they could make up the difference out of their own pocket.

That would also enable the running of first class only services (since an expense claimant would be able to spend their claimable portion how they wished, regardless of how small a contribution it proved towards the purchase).

 

[Deerfold]

One route they could do which wouldn't be a London bound service would be if possible to run 4 or 5 return services between Nottingham and Carlisle/Lancaster via Leeds which would fit in between the existing Northern services.

This one seems to come up every time there's a thread about OA.

I catch the current weekly through service from time to time. I'd be surprised if more than 1% of passengers remained on the train at Leeds in either direction.

If you're planning on running it during the week then good luck squeezing extra trains between Shipley and Skipton not to mention in and out of Leeds.

(note: I'd love these services, living near Steeton and Silsden with friends (and bands playing) in Nottingham and Sheffield and a parent in Lancaster but I'm very sceptical about the practicalities).

 

[The Planner]

There are solutions to this after Cross Rail, extending it north of Tring or putting more commuter services on it to free up more capacity at Euston.

Crossrail to Tring (it won't ever go past there as Tfl aren't interested) still isn't a commited scheme and wouldnt be open until the mid 2020s anyway. That runs on the slow lines anyway and doesnt solve adding anything onto the fasts, let alone being able to fit all the freight on the slows.

An alternative would be to switch one of the New Street - Euston services to Moor Street - Marlebone. 2 Pendalinos (11 coach) on the WCML and 2 double Meredians or Voyagers (i.e. 10 coaches) with both routes taking 90 mins would work for a while, maybe with a third fast 10 coach Chiltern Service being needed at some point before 2026. It would need another Chiltern upgrade but considering that GNWR and Chilterns are both owned by Arriva its possible to do.

Why would the West Coast franchisee agree to that (let alone the DfT)? they are two seperate routes. How do you deal with the loss of Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, MK and Watford stops? Along with the fact that the Chiltern route is pretty much full.

Reducing New Street - Euston services to half hourly switching the two pendalinos freed to Birmingham - Scotland services and cascading 4 Voyagers that would be freed to Chiltern would need to be in the next WCML franchise spec because Virgin would never agree in a million years.

Chiltern getting Voyagers? as well as the loss in value and passenger capacity of the West Coast franchise by reducing Birmingham to Euston? OK....

At least another 4 voyagers or Meridians would need to be found as well. The bigger capacity problem is Stockport and I don't know how that can be solved, running a fourth Manchester-London service from Victoria seems like the best option.

So how does running from Victoria solve the issue of Stockport (if indeed there really is one)?

 

[route:oxford]

Are there any current Open Access routes that don't go to London?

Yes

"The Jacobite" is an Open Access service operating between Fort William & Mallaig.

 

[Deerfold]

Are there any current Open Access routes that don't go to London?

Do the NYMR trips to Whitby count?

http://www.nymr.co.uk/timetables-and-fares/timetable/

They're more frequent in summer.

 

[dk1]

I witnessed the 16:03 GC Kings Cross to Bradford service passing through Peterborough last Friday and the very poor loadings surprised me. Considering the day & time I'd have expected it to be a busy one. On the other hand all Northbound EC trains where very well loaded.

 

[Iskra]

I witnessed the 16:03 GC Kings Cross to Bradford service passing through Peterborough last Friday and the very poor loadings surprised me. Considering the day & time I'd have expected it to be a busy one. On the other hand all Northbound EC trains where very well loaded.

EC and connections always come out cheaper in my experience, so it's not a surprise for me.

 

[class26]

EC and connections always come out cheaper in my experience, so it's not a surprise for me.

I travelled to Kings cross on Friday from Grantham and most trains, including EC trains were very lightly loaded, mine (from Harrogate ) was only about 20% full. I presume this was due to many people not returning to work until this week.

 

[Deerfold]

I travelled to Kings cross on Friday from Grantham and most trains, including EC trains were very lightly loaded, mine (from Harrogate ) was only about 20% full. I presume this was due to many people not returning to work until this week.

I was surprised by how quiet the 0715 out of Leeds was both last Monday and today (though it's usually a much quieter train than the 0700).

 

[dk1]

I was surprised by how quiet the 0715 out of Leeds was both last Monday and today (though it's usually a much quieter train than the 0700).

Strange thing about many EC services is the fact that 1st can often match Standard for loadings. Now with many of then Open tickets you can see how financially rewarding these trains can be. Back in the 90s you could check & often trains where for example 1st-140 Std-105. Apart from some staff passes it's a pretty lucrative load compared to FAS advance tickets.

 

[Chester1]

Crossrail to Tring (it won't ever go past there as Tfl aren't interested) still isn't a commited scheme and wouldnt be open until the mid 2020s anyway. That runs on the slow lines anyway and doesnt solve adding anything onto the fasts, let alone being able to fit all the freight on the slows.


Why would the West Coast franchisee agree to that (let alone the DfT)? they are two seperate routes. How do you deal with the loss of Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, MK and Watford stops? Along with the fact that the Chiltern route is pretty much full.

Chiltern getting Voyagers? as well as the loss in value and passenger capacity of the West Coast franchise by reducing Birmingham to Euston? OK....



So how does running from Victoria solve the issue of Stockport (if indeed there really is one)?

As I stated it would have to be included in the spec for the next West Coast franchise to stop Virgin blocking it, so only the DfT would need to give approval. The basis of the suggestion is it will be easier to add 1tph going into Marlebone than Euston (during the rebuild). Switching one of the London Birmingham services to the chiltern route would free up 1 train path per hour for a 4th Manchester Euston service. The idea could work with the fourth service being part of the WCML franchise. Voyagers or Meridians would be the obvious trains to use to get the most capacity on Chiltern fast services. With half hourly services along both routes most stops currently served could be at least once. There is definately a capacity problem at Stockport, there are no peak time paths left, its an issue that has been discussed numerous times. Victoria is the obvious alternative station.

 

[TUC]

they dont get approval because most of the proposals are:


b) designed to rob money off someone else.

Oh you mean competition...

 

[DarloRich]

Oh you mean competition...

you disagree that most (all?) open access proposals are designed to extract revenue from the franchised operator then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I stated it would have to be included in the spec for the next West Coast franchise to stop Virgin blocking it, so only the DfT would need to give approval. The basis of the suggestion is it will be easier to add 1tph going into Marlebone than Euston (during the rebuild). Switching one of the London Birmingham services to the chiltern route would free up 1 train path per hour for a 4th Manchester Euston service. The idea could work with the fourth service being part of the WCML franchise. Voyagers or Meridians would be the obvious trains to use to get the most capacity on Chiltern fast services. With half hourly services along both routes most stops currently served could be at least once. There is definately a capacity problem at Stockport, there are no peak time paths left, its an issue that has been discussed numerous times. Victoria is the obvious alternative station.

What, 11 cars (or 9 sometimes) 3 times an hour isn't enough? That's mad. It carries a lot of fresh air and needs reducing off-peak[1] if anything, not increasing. Or leave it as it is and grow the business - but there is no need for 4tph.

[1] "off-peak" not "Off-Peak" - the busiest times on the WCML by far are Friday and Sunday evenings.

Neil
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you disagree that most (all?) open access proposals are designed to extract revenue from the franchised operator then?

I think this is confirmed by the fact that (unlike in Germany, Italy etc) no open-access operator yet appears to have made any attempt to opt out of ORCATS and do their own ticketing on their own model, e.g. low-cost-airline-style, or like the new Sleeper.

Neil

 

[DarloRich]

I think this is confirmed by the fact that (unlike in Germany) no open-access operator yet appears to have made any attempt to opt out of ORCATS and do their own ticketing on their own model, e.g. low-cost-airline-style, or like the new Sleeper.

Neil

My point exactly - ORCATS is the key

 

[Aictos]

This one seems to come up every time there's a thread about OA.

I catch the current weekly through service from time to time. I'd be surprised if more than 1% of passengers remained on the train at Leeds in either direction.

If you're planning on running it during the week then good luck squeezing extra trains between Shipley and Skipton not to mention in and out of Leeds.

(note: I'd love these services, living near Steeton and Silsden with friends (and bands playing) in Nottingham and Sheffield and a parent in Lancaster but I'm very sceptical about the practicalities).

But my point is I'm sure there's markets for Open Access Operators out there which doesn't HAVE to serve London.

I'm not local to Leeds so as stated in my post I did point out IF it was possible to run such a service if not then I'm sure there's plenty of places which could do with such a service.

 

[Deerfold]

But my point is I'm sure there's markets for Open Access Operators out there which doesn't HAVE to serve London.

Is it? That wasn't clear.

This one isn't it - not without a lot of work. WYMetro is already keen for more trains to run up there but it seems to have hit a barrier whilst allowing time for the slow freight paths north of Skipton and the congestion Skipton - Shipley (not that there's the spare trains around at the moment to run it).

I'm not local to Leeds so as stated in my post I did point out IF it was possible to run such a service if not then I'm sure there's plenty of places which could do with such a service.

Would OA work better than more normal services? I'm not sure there's the revenue in it for many services which don't serve London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point exactly - ORCATS is the key

If the network moves fully to smart ticketing[1] at any point in the future (or indeed something like compulsory reservations for IC with e-ticketing), it will be interesting to see if Open Access survives having lost the ORCATS income.

[1] It's not out of the question that a smart ticketing scheme could distribute revenue based on *actual* travel for a given ticket type rather than calculated journey opportunities and surveys.

Neil

 

[Deerfold]

If the network moves fully to smart ticketing[1] at any point in the future (or indeed something like compulsory reservations for IC with e-ticketing), it will be interesting to see if Open Access survives having lost the ORCATS income.

[1] It's not out of the question that a smart ticketing scheme could distribute revenue based on *actual* travel for a given ticket type rather than calculated journey opportunities and surveys.

Neil

Would people have to touch in on each train or are you having very high power RFID readers at the doors?