Are there any potential Open Access Routes left?

[route:oxford]

It was pointed out (by Nuneatonmark) in another forum that, since the coalition came to power, not one new Open Access arrangement has been approved.

Working on the basis that every application was declined for fair and proper reasons...

Are there any routes left that could potentially break-even as an Open Access service?

 

[arabianights]

It is my view that a luxury service from Glasgow - Carlisle - Settle (all stops) - Leeds - Sheffield - St Pancras Intl that is targetted mostly at affluent tourists could work.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I am sure GNWRs bid will come up trumps eventually.

I also believe that an intercity service over the S and C could work. London/Leicester/Nottingham to Glasgow or Carlisle.

And maybe a Sheffield to King's Cross via Retford or Nottingham to KX via Grantham (both been mentioned before).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is my view that a luxury service from Glasgow - Carlisle - Settle (all stops) - Leeds - Sheffield - St Pancras Intl that is targetted mostly at affluent tourists could work.

Was typing almost the same at the same time!

 

[bluenoxid]

An infrequent (weekly) operation serving some of our more scenic destinations targetting a premium operation
London to the Continent (Dusseldorf)
Middlesbrough to London
Heathrow to Birmingham
Burton Upon Trent to South Leicester
South Nottingham to London (either via GCR or Old Dalby)

 

[syorksdeano]

It is my view that a luxury service from Glasgow - Carlisle - Settle (all stops) - Leeds - Sheffield - St Pancras Intl that is targetted mostly at affluent tourists could work.

That would certainly help some of my journeys I take 2-3 times a month

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Always fancied the idea of Carmarthen to Kensington Olympia via the Swansea District line - breakfast service to include Gower cockles / Laverbread and locally sourced bacon and eggs.

 

[DarloRich]

It was pointed out (by Nuneatonmark) in another forum that, since the coalition came to power, not one new Open

they dont get approval because most of the proposals are:

a) wibble

and/or

b) designed to rob money off someone else.

(For point a see 99% of the stuff suggested on this thread)

 

[reb0118]

It is my view that a luxury service from Edinburgh - Carlisle - Settle (all stops) - Leeds - Sheffield - St Pancras Intl that is targeted mostly at affluent tourists could work.

I also believe that an intercity service over the S&C could work. London/Leicester/Nottingham to Edinburgh or Carlisle.

There lads, I've fixed that for you.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I also believe that an intercity service over the S and C could work. London/Leicester/Nottingham to Glasgow or Carlisle.

It would have to be ridiculously cheap for it to ever have a chance of succeeding otherwise customers would still stick with the WCML / ECML.

 

[arabianights]

they dont get approval because most of the proposals are:

a) wibble

and/or

b) designed to rob money off someone else.

(For point a see 99% of the stuff suggested on this thread)

I really don't see the issue with proposals being wibble. If they are, then they will fail by normal market mechanisms. The entire point in having a privatised railway is so that you get the innovative creative, yet chaotic effects of captalism. If paths can be found, the wibble services should be permitted.

I have a bit more sympathy with the the argument re: money being robbed, but only because of the franchise system.

 

[Carlisle]

It is my view that a luxury service from Glasgow - Carlisle - Settle (all stops) - Leeds - Sheffield - St Pancras Intl that is targetted mostly at affluent tourists could work.

Probably profitable only for a few weeks in the height of summer

 

[Iskra]

It would have to be ridiculously cheap for it to ever have a chance of succeeding otherwise customers would still stick with the WCML / ECML.

It wouldn't be a sensible end-to-end journey. It would be more for the following journeys;

London-Midlands (fastest route)
East Midlands-Yorkshire (fastest train)
East Midlands-Glasgow (fastest route, only through train)
South/West Yorks-Glasgow (fastest route, most direct service).
Yorkshire-London (on advances, with cheap tickets)
Express Service over S&C
Carlisle-Glasgow
Potential untapped revenue at Motherwell
Settle/Skipton/Kieghley/Bingley/Shipley Markets
First Class passengers where there is no provision currently
Passengers wanting catering/better rolling stock/direct journeys where there are none available currently

I think this would be a viable open access route.

Also; Liverpool-Glasgow, but I think TPE are exploring that anyway.

 

[arabianights]

It would have to be ridiculously cheap for it to ever have a chance of succeeding otherwise customers would still stick with the WCML / ECML.

The trick would be aggressive load management; aim for silver service to affluent tourists but when you can't fill her up, get bums on seats at any price.

I have another idea for how to make an extremely unsual amount of money from a train but I am not sure of the legality of it - essentially you would have a "day sleeper" filled with attractive subcontractors who hired the rooms off you for £500 a day, and what they did in the rooms with their clients would be their business, if you catch my drift.

 

[DarloRich]

I really don't see the issue with proposals being wibble. If they are, then they will fail by normal market mechanisms. The entire point in having a privatised railway is so that you get the innovative creative, yet chaotic effects of captalism. If paths can be found, the wibble services should be permitted.

I have a bit more sympathy with the the argument re: money being robbed, but only because of the franchise system.

no the whole point of a privatised railway system is to make the terribly decent chaps who are friends of the Tories a bit more money. Nothing else.

The problem is that while most of the wibbly proposals do fall foul of sensible commercial principles the spotters cant/wont see that and then drone on about them ceaselessly.

To me if the paths can be found they should be used for services that will actually benefit the majority rather than a few who happen to live in a fairly minor town with no direct rail access to London.

 

[Iskra]

The trick would be aggressive load management; aim for silver service to affluent tourists but when you can't fill her up, get bums on seats at any price.

I have another idea for how to make an extremely unsual amount of money from a train but I am not sure of the legality of it - essentially you would have a "day sleeper" filled with attractive subcontractors who hired the rooms off you for £500 a day, and what they did in the rooms with their clients would be their business, if you catch my drift.

Managing a brothel is a crime.

 

[cf111]

The trick would be aggressive load management; aim for silver service to affluent tourists but when you can't fill her up, get bums on seats at any price.

I have another idea for how to make an extremely unsual amount of money from a train but I am not sure of the legality of it - essentially you would have a "day sleeper" filled with attractive subcontractors who hired the rooms off you for £500 a day, and what they did in the rooms with their clients would be their business, if you catch my drift.

Please make sure the berths are bigger than the ones in the sleeper at the moment

 

[DarloRich]

Managing a brothel is a crime.

aka living of immoral earnings

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don't see the issue with proposals being wibble. If they are, then they will fail by normal market mechanisms. The entire point in having a privatised railway is so that you get the innovative creative, yet chaotic effects of captalism.

Is it?

Is the point of it not also to remove things from direct Government interference, to cut costs through private sector efficiency (ha!) and to stop things going a bit stale?

You don't get the "innovative, creative yet chaotic effects of capitalism" on Council bin collections, even though these are mostly privatised. What you do get is a lower cost/risk to the taxpayer.

Neil
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One thing I find interesting is that there has not yet been any Open Access operation that didn't take part in the national fares system.

Are they required to do so, or is an ORCATS raid too good not to take?

Might an open access TOC do well to try out concepts like online-only booking, e-ticketing and compulsory reservations as well as low-cost-airline style pricing? Or aren't they allowed to? One big risk for them running, as they often do, fairly short trains, is them being overwhelmed by Any Permitted ticket holders in the event of issues.

Neil

 

[arabianights]

aka living of immoral earnings

If it's illegal to live off immoral earnings then Brian Souter should be in gaol!

 

[asylumxl]

You don't get the "innovative, creative yet chaotic effects of capitalism" on Council bin collections, even though these are mostly privatised. What you do get is a lower cost/risk to the taxpayer.

Like the government PPP and PFI schemes used in other industries? Where lower cost means 6x the cost to the tax payer?

 

[Tiny Tim]

It is my view that a luxury service from Glasgow - Carlisle - Settle (all stops) - Leeds - Sheffield - St Pancras Intl that is targetted mostly at affluent tourists could work.

Would a 'First Class only' service be permitted?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I have another idea for how to make an extremely unsual amount of money from a train but I am not sure of the legality of it - essentially you would have a "day sleeper" filled with attractive subcontractors who hired the rooms off you for £500 a day, and what they did in the rooms with their clients would be their business, if you catch my drift.

Lunatics comes to mind here. There is an establishment known as Bubbles opposite Derby station. They might be interested in your idea for a franchise. Perhaps you could collect all the fit ladies from the various TOC's / FOC's and employ them through a company known as Joy Division. Love Will Tear Us Apart could be very apt in certain situations.

 

[LLivery]

London King's Cross, Cambridge, Ely, Brandon, Thetford, Attleborough, Wymondham, Norwich. With soo many people hating Greater Anglia and several Breakland Line stations not being direct to London I can't see it failing. Timings would be about the same too. I just think AGA would hate it haha!

 

[w1bbl3]

Managing a brothel is a crime.

Managing a massage parlour however is not, if service provided by the whore contractors is separately negotiated you wouldn't technically be managing a brothel.

Serviced day hotel?

 

[Bertie the bus]

It was pointed out (by Nuneatonmark) in another forum that, since the coalition came to power, not one new Open Access arrangement has been approved.

Well, Nuneatonmark is wrong. There haven't been any new operators or routes but Grand Central has expanded its operations. These have required approval and have indeed been approved.

 

[Chester1]

I am sure GNWRs bid will come up trumps eventually.

I also believe that an intercity service over the S and C could work. London/Leicester/Nottingham to Glasgow or Carlisle.

And maybe a Sheffield to King's Cross via Retford or Nottingham to KX via Grantham (both been mentioned before).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Was typing almost the same at the same time!

Id be surprised if an open access service on the WCML is not approved eventually. I wouldn't be surprised in the next WCML franchise spec didn't include a Victoria to London service to try to avoid it. I can't see 3tph between Piccadilly and London being enough until 2030 and I am not sure its possible to squeeze a fourth service in. From 2021 a electric MML application is very possible.

Id be surprised if Alliance don't get something out of its GNER bids. There is a geuine point about attracting more customers from Scotland to London flights but I think 1tph is taking the mick. I wouldn't be surprised if they got 7 or 8 Scotland - London paths per day though. If Grand Centrals application was accepted its not umfeasible that Bradford/Ilkely - Leeds - London will be, it just appears like a way of running electric Bradford - Londom services with the added bonus of stopping in Leeds (I got off a Grand Central train from London at Wakefield recently and allot got off to go to Leeds).

 

[jopsuk]

London King's Cross, Cambridge, Ely, Brandon, Thetford, Attleborough, Wymondham, Norwich. With soo many people hating Greater Anglia and several Breakland Line stations not being direct to London I can't see it failing. Timings would be about the same too. I just think AGA would hate it haha!

No capacity out of Kings Cross plus it would be very much "abstractive"- Kings Cross - Cambridge is very, very busy whilst the Breckland line seems to be OK with the service it currently has.

 

[The Planner]

Id be surprised if an open access service on the WCML is not approved eventually. I wouldn't be surprised in the next WCML franchise spec didn't include a Victoria to London service to try to avoid it. I can't see 3tph between Piccadilly and London being enough until 2030 and I am not sure its possible to squeeze a fourth service

4tph was always the plan but you are pretty much fixed from 2017-2026 as Euston wont be able to deal with it.

 

[kieron]

One thing I find interesting is that there has not yet been any Open Access operation that didn't take part in the national fares system.

Are they required to do so, or is an ORCATS raid too good not to take?

I don't know if there's a requirement, but there's a big benefit to passengers from (for instance) Hull Trains being able to accept tickets between ZONE U1* LONDON and Eastrington.

 

[Amy Worrall]

I'd love to see Leamington-Coventry-Nuneaton-Leicester-Nottingham/Derby. Could extend south to Oxford and north to Sheffield.

It won't happen, due to cutting across the main lines at Coventry and Nuneaton, but it'd fulfil a need. Leicester to Leamington, for example, is terribly inconvenient by train at the moment.

Are there any current Open Access routes that don't go to London?