Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[fgwrich]

510 dereg steered by WGL. Not a huge shock.

When is the 510s dereg due to take place? I was down in Devon for most of the weekend and it seems only Solo SRs were in use on that service.

 

[richw]

This morning about 1030 a vario was working into Truro. Didn't think should be seeing any varios anymore.

 

[Robertj21a]

This morning about 1030 a vario was working into Truro. Didn't think should be seeing any varios anymore.

Could it be one certified as a coach ?

 

[richw]

Could it be one certified as a coach ?

Irrelevant on vehicles under 7.5t. The 1.1.15 deadline was all buses and coaches under 7.5t operating scheduled services.

 

[swifty]

They've been using WG Varios in Southampton as well. Incidentally some of the Tridents have also moved over with 497 noted in use.

 

[Robertj21a]

Irrelevant on vehicles under 7.5t. The 1.1.15 deadline was all buses and coaches under 7.5t operating scheduled services.

Still not 100% convinced on that. Others are still quoting that minis without stanchions and certified as coaches can operate until Jan 2020.

 

[Rich McLean]

Still not 100% convinced on that. Others are still quoting that minis without stanchions and certified as coaches can operate until Jan 2020.

They can be used for Private Hire, but not on Scheduled bus services

 

[richw]

Still not 100% convinced on that. Others are still quoting that minis without stanchions and certified as coaches can operate until Jan 2020.

They can be used on private hire service until 2020 but not on scheduled services.

Coincidently I've noticed WG have started advertising private hire again. Who'd like a guess what buses you'll get on private hire!

 

[Volvo142]

Can they be used to cover breakdowns in preference to non operation of a route?

 

[richw]

The regulations mention special dispensation can be gained. It doesn't specify circumstances.

 

[ACBest]

They can be used on private hire service until 2020 but not on scheduled services.

Coincidently I've noticed WG have started advertising private hire again. Who'd like a guess what buses you'll get on private hire!

I'm certain they can be used on private hires and un-registered services beyond 2020 too. They can also be used on scheduled services for up to 20 days a year if I remember correctly.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm certain they can be used on private hires and un-registered services beyond 2020 too. They can also be used on scheduled services for up to 20 days a year if I remember correctly.

You're partially correct. Private hire work is exempt completely, but the regulations apply to scheduled express work as well as registered services. Basically, anything with a timetable, except rail replacement, which is exempt.

The 20 days a year rule only applies to vehicles more than 20 years old. This is to allow occasional use of heritage vehicles.

As for the continued use of some Varios, I'm very surprised. MH was told a few months ago by VOSA that he couldn't use them from 1st January. But then it's not his problem any more!

 

[Busaholic]

You're partially correct. Private hire work is exempt completely, but the regulations apply to scheduled express work as well as registered services. Basically, anything with a timetable, except rail replacement, which is exempt.

The 20 days a year rule only applies to vehicles more than 20 years old. This is to allow occasional use of heritage vehicles.

As for the continued use of some Varios, I'm very surprised. MH was told a few months ago by VOSA that he couldn't use them from 1st January. But then it's not his problem any more!

Perhaps someone at WG thinks nobody's going to notice - they could be in for a rude shock.

 

[richw]

Perhaps someone at WG thinks nobody's going to notice - they could be in for a rude shock.

I noticed. it was on the 0930 594 from Treliske
This morning operated by a Dart.

 

[83G/84D]

I saw a Vario with passengers on board heading past Castle-an-Dinas towards Newquay at about 1pm today.

 

[Goldfish62]

I've been advised that two Varios have been certified as DDA compliant by virtue of their chair lifts and this can remain in service ufn. However, I haven't come across anyone in the industry who thinks they should still be running the rest of their Varios.

The quoted sanction if pulled by VOSA is a PG9i and fine for both the operator and the driver.

 

[richw]

I've been advised that two Varios have been certified as DDA compliant by virtue of their chair lifts and this can remain in service ufn. However, I haven't come across anyone in the industry who thinks they should still be running the rest of their Varios.

The quoted sanction if pulled by VOSA is a PG9i and fine for both the operator and the driver.

I believe the two 56 plate ex sunset buses had chair lifts, but was neither of those I saw. The one I saw was a 53 plate.
Looking at the fleetlist they have a majority DP33f, but the ex sunset buses are dp29fl, is that significant?
Wk56SUN and WK56SET being the 2 vehicles with Dp29fl

 

[swifty]

I've been advised that two Varios have been certified as DDA compliant by virtue of their chair lifts and this can remain in service ufn.

I might be going mad, but I could've sworn I'd heard a few years back that the lifts on those two were no longer in working order?

 

[richw]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59239232@N03/6060227970/in/photolist-aewfD9

The lift is on the rear nearside door. The button on the outside of the door is for operating the lift.

Non lift Varios don't have the near side rear door.

 

[Robertj21a]

I might be going mad, but I could've sworn I'd heard a few years back that the lifts on those two were no longer in working order?

That's quite likely. Only a few of this type were produced (after pressure from Western Greyhound I think) and lifts were poor on a few others built.

- might be Centrebus that springs to mind (?)

 

[SWTH]

Irrelevant on vehicles under 7.5t. The 1.1.15 deadline was all buses and coaches under 7.5t operating scheduled services.

Problem is, the legislation doesn't state that, and nothing official that I've read mentions coaches under 7.5t. Certainly the remaining bus-spec machines (e.g. 500) are no longer able to be used, but I've not seen them on the road since new year. Again, can anyone provide me with definitive official documents stating that buses and coaches under 7.5t cannot be used rather than just buses?

Not defending their continued use here, but I would prefer to pass on correct info to a group of people who could do with knowing where they stand legally.

 

[Volvodart]

The legal definition of a coach is over 7.5 tonnes capable of over 60 mph.

 

[mbonwick]

The PSVAR act defines a coach as
"“coach” means a public service vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of seated passengers only which is of category M2 or M3 (as defined in Annex II(A) to the 1970 Directive) and has a capacity exceeding 22 passengers, in addition to the driver"

 

[Stan Drews]

This link will take you to the official guidance info, which should help to clarify some of the issues being discussed.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-coach-accessibility-faq

 

[83G/84D]

Has anyone seen any of the Velvet or Pennine buses in service in Cornwall yet? I have spent some time in St Austell & Newquay this week but not seen them.

 

[SWTH]

The PSVAR act defines a coach as
"“coach” means a public service vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of seated passengers only which is of category M2 or M3 (as defined in Annex II(A) to the 1970 Directive) and has a capacity exceeding 22 passengers, in addition to the driver"

A Vario is an M3 category vehicle:

Category M3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass exceeding 5 tonnes.

Taken from the DfT website.

This link will take you to the official guidance info, which should help to clarify some of the issues being discussed.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-coach-accessibility-faq

It doesn't clarify what a coach-spec Vario is classed as. There is nothing in the wording of the act itself defining whether a coach is only considered as such if it weighs over 7.5t, therefore the act seems to consider all coaches, whether a 33-seat Vario or a 53-seat B10M to be one type of vehicle as far as accessibility regulations are concerned. What I'm after is a DfT or DVSA document specifically outlining whether coaches under 7.5t come into scope of the 2015 part of the accessibility regulations, or not. So far, I'm drawing a blank. If a DVSA inspector did PG9 a vehicle and fine the company/driver, it would be interesting to see if it could be overturned on the potentially ambiguous nature of the legislation wording.

 

[Stan Drews]

A Vario is an M3 category vehicle:

Category M3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass exceeding 5 tonnes.

Taken from the DfT website.



It doesn't clarify what a coach-spec Vario is classed as. There is nothing in the wording of the act itself defining whether a coach is only considered as such if it weighs over 7.5t, therefore the act seems to consider all coaches, whether a 33-seat Vario or a 53-seat B10M to be one type of vehicle as far as accessibility regulations are concerned. What I'm after is a DfT or DVSA document specifically outlining whether coaches under 7.5t come into scope of the 2015 part of the accessibility regulations, or not. So far, I'm drawing a blank. If a DVSA inspector did PG9 a vehicle and fine the company/driver, it would be interesting to see if it could be overturned on the potentially ambiguous nature of the legislation wording.

It is my understanding that a Vario with tacho/boot etc (and no standees) would be certified as a coach and issued with an appropriate Schedule 3 certificate. I know of two 53 plate Varios that we used to operate that were as such. They can still be used on local bus service work until 2020 by the current owners.

This might help further
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/1970/note/made?view=plain

 

[richw]

The legal definition of a coach is over 7.5 tonnes capable of over 60 mph.

Likewise the definition of a bus is:

a large motor vehicle carrying passengers by road, serving the public on a fixed route and for a fare:

A Vario fits the latter regardless of the type of seating in my opinion.

Looking online regarding the matter, it seems a lot of operators are still using Varios across the country and its creating a bit of discussion on bus forums.

Is the regulation maximum weight?

I've just found an online retailer advertising a 54 plate Vario Beaver, and the advert states maximum laden weight 7500kg.

Is the regulation under 7.5t or equal or less than 7.5t?
The wording may make a difference if they are 7500kg, as if that advert is accurate they would be allowed depending on whether the wording says less than 7.5t as that would mean they are not less than 7.5t.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has anyone seen any of the Velvet or Pennine buses in service in Cornwall yet? I have spent some time in St Austell & Newquay this week but not seen them.

I've seen the 02 plate Pennine working in Truro.

 

[mbonwick]

For the purposes of PSVAR, a bus is defined as
"“bus” means a public service vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of both seated and standing passengers which is of category M2 or M3 (as defined in Annex II(A) to the 1970 Directive) and has a capacity exceeding 22 passengers, in addition to the driver"

So if the Vario isn't certified for standing passengers then it is a coach. Simple.

 

[Robertj21a]

For the purposes of PSVAR, a bus is defined as
"“bus” means a public service vehicle designed and constructed for the carriage of both seated and standing passengers which is of category M2 or M3 (as defined in Annex II(A) to the 1970 Directive) and has a capacity exceeding 22 passengers, in addition to the driver"

So if the Vario isn't certified for standing passengers then it is a coach. Simple.

Which is what I've been saying all along.