South West Trains prosecution

[blakey1152]

Thought I'd add a quick thing about the debit cards.

I have a normal current account with Lloyds and it has a Visa Debit card with it and I can use it online, in shops, just about everywhere but with one odd exception.

I wasn't able to use it to buy a ticket from SouthEasterns' TVM's - It would always reject the card.
They have recently replaced the cards and I haven't checked whether my new one actually works or not.

So it's not always clear - it could be some very fussy cards out there (Maybe the debit card was secretly telling me not to use SouthEastern )

Blakey

 

[Flamingo]

Do you mean "defraud"?

Please explain this statement as I fail to understand....

I want to buy a jumper from M & S and produce my debit card. Am I defrauding M & S (and with intent)? Must I only bring cash if I want to buy from M & S?

If you have attempted to use that card before and know it doesn't work, then expect to walk out of M&S with the jumper regardless, then yes...

 

[sarahj]

We have just had a nice list of those using cards that dont work on trains, getting a swipe and then the bank either refuses to pay, or the punter uses chargeback. Some people are now into the £1000's.

Yes, I know the answer is using pin pads with GSM etc. but since mobile phone coverage on even our main line is patchy.

Calling for authorisation take about 5 mins with good coverage, one blackout and its back to the start, oh and you need 3 hands.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'm sure Johngill100 was being sarcastic

Apologies all round, yes DEFRAUD not DEFAULT.

 

[maniacmartin]

Virtually all card receipts you get when using your card will have a line called the 'AID' or 'Application ID'. Its the same for every transaction you make with that card.

If this is A0000000031010 , A0000000041010 or A000000025010801 the card will work on the train
If it is A0000000032010 or A0000000038010 then the card will not work on the train.

 

[Flamingo]

We have just had a nice list of those using cards that dont work on trains, getting a swipe and then the bank either refuses to pay, or the punter uses chargeback. Some people are now into the £1000's.

Yes, I know the answer is using pin pads with GSM etc. but since mobile phone coverage on even our main line is patchy.

Calling for authorisation take about 5 mins with good coverage, one blackout and its back to the start, oh and you need 3 hands.

It is amazing how many people who say "You need to swipe it" either find cash when one says "I need to ring the bank before I can do that", or the card is declined when one rings the bank (or even comes up "Declined" as soon as it is put into the chip and pin machine, without even looking for a PIN). I will never ring the bank for authorisation until after I have checked the PIN first.

You are right, you need three hands and a good mobile phone signal, and above all at least five minutes free to check for authorisation. This is time I begrudge wasting on somebody who should have bought their ticket before boarding, and if I need to do so, I am more inclined to charge them an "Anytime" single ticket than the YP discounted cheap day return they want to buy, as in my opinion they have to pay for the extra time devoted to them (I don't come cheap!).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Virtually all card receipts you get when using your card will have a line called the 'AID' or 'Application ID'.

If this is A0000000031010 , A0000000041010 or A000000025010801 the card will work on the train
If it is A0000000032010 or A0000000038010 then the card will not work on the train.

Does that apply to any certain bank, or is it in general?

 

[maniacmartin]

General

 

[Flamingo]

General

Thanks . As a follow-up, does the number change according to credit available or not?

 

[maniacmartin]

Thanks . As a follow-up, does the number change according to credit available or not?

Sadly not. It does determine if its an online-only card though

 

[Flamingo]

Sadly not. It does determine if its an online-only card though

Good to know, thanks! I'm now off to check mine and the Mrs's card receipts!

 

[bb21]

For anyone interested, there is more information on EMVCo Specification and Application IDs here and here.

The first one gives a concise explanation as to what it is and the second gives a fairly comprehensive list of all the Application IDs in use.

 

[andykn]

http://personal.natwest.com/content...tWest-Basic-Account-Visa-Debit-Card-Guide.pdf

Natwest have it covered in their Basic Account guide - but the spanner in the works is that they also issue Online Only cards on their non-Basic account, and that guide doesn't mention it.

(And who reads these leaflets anyway?)

Actually it says "some readers on trains, ships or planes" (my emphasis). If I was reading that as a first time card user I'd think that meant in remote places with no mobile phone coverage, Scottish Highlands, that sort of thing.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely if someone doesn't already know that their particular card does not work with mobile ticket machines, they'll know once they are told by staff. Out of all those people who are told, how many will then play dumb next time, thinking that it's a pretty good way of getting out of paying for future journeys.

Perhaps in real life they all go to their bank and ask for a more useful card though...

 

[Flamingo]

I have one regular passenger and every time I see them they (very reluctantly) have to pay the extra as their split season ticket is not valid on the train they regularly catch. The card they always offer to pay does not work, and they know this. They have been told on many occasions. They are trying to play the system in several ways. (I have told them before it is going to end in tears for them, and they don't believe me...)

 

[455driver]

I want to buy a jumper from M & S and produce my debit card. Am I defrauding M & S (and with intent)? Must I only bring cash if I want to buy from M & S?

If that card doesnt work and you walk out without paying for the jumper then yes you are, because you have received their product without paying for it!
Just like receiving a train journey without paying for it!

 

[island]

General

It's true for Visa debit cards; may not apply to MasterCard debit cards which all use the same AID but there aren't many of those in circulation. American Express cards are all offline-capable except non-chip cards.

 

[455driver]

All this talk of card acceptance on the trains is okay but misses the point that the OP walked past an oportunity to pay at the start of their journey!
That is the important bit.

 

[cjmillsnun]

All this talk of card acceptance on the trains is okay but misses the point that the OP walked past an oportunity to pay at the start of their journey!
That is the important bit.

Agreed. It is an open and shut case in this instance as there is a manned ticket office that would've been open at the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's true for Visa debit cards; may not apply to MasterCard debit cards which all use the same AID but there aren't many of those in circulation. American Express cards are all offline-capable except chip cards.

Aren't all UK issued Amex cards chipped?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If that card doesnt work and you walk out without paying for the jumper then yes you are, because you have received their product without paying for it!
Just like receiving a train journey without paying for it!

I disagree, in this case it would be a different offence. That of theft.

If on the other hand, the jumper is left behind with the cashier, and the customer walks out then no offence has been committed, unless ****ing off a cashier is now a criminal offence (as someone who has worked in retail I really think it should be !)

 

[island]

You can get non-chip UK Amex cards, such as prepaid gift cards and also emergency cards issued when urgently required at Amex travel offices and the like. They're not very common.

More at issue is that I left out a critical "non" from my last post. Now edited.

 

[thelongestroad]

Whilst we're on the subject of card payments on train using Avantix...

Let's say it's one of those blue Natwest cards, or the white HSBC squidgy world map ones, or the light blue Halifax ones; to name but a few of the usual suspects.

You put them in the chip and pin, the passenger puts the right pin it but it declines.

So you type in the card number, put in the start/end dates and Avantix prints a receipt for the passenger to sign with an automatically generated authorisation code.

(I understand this is the approved method, at least at my TOC.)

Does this guarantee that the TOC gets the money from the bank?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Whilst we're on the subject of card payments on train using Avantix...

Let's say it's one of those blue Natwest cards, or the white HSBC squidgy world map ones, or the light blue Halifax ones; to name but a few of the usual suspects.

You put them in the chip and pin, the passenger puts the right pin it but it declines.

So you type in the card number, put in the start/end dates and Avantix prints a receipt for the passenger to sign with an automatically generated authorisation code.

(I understand this is the approved method, at least at my TOC.)

Does this guarantee that the TOC gets the money from the bank?

No it doesn't. Swiping for any transaction is no guarantee of payment

 

[PermitToTravel]

one of those blue Natwest cards, or the white HSBC squidgy world map ones, or the light blue Halifax ones

As far as I'm aware, those three will decline every single time if the chip is tried. If you swipe them I suspect it only works (i.e. the merchant only gets the money) if they've got the funds or have an overdraft - someone with a light blue Halifax card definitely hasn't got an overdraft; I think someone with a blue Natwest card might (but those cards are usually issued to young persons who are less likely to have one)

 

[Flamingo]

Whilst we're on the subject of card payments on train using Avantix...

Let's say it's one of those blue Natwest cards, or the white HSBC squidgy world map ones, or the light blue Halifax ones; to name but a few of the usual suspects.

You put them in the chip and pin, the passenger puts the right pin it but it declines.

So you type in the card number, put in the start/end dates and Avantix prints a receipt for the passenger to sign with an automatically generated authorisation code.

(I understand this is the approved method, at least at my TOC.)

Does this guarantee that the TOC gets the money from the bank?

AFAIK, only if authorisation has been requested from the automated phone line.

Island might be able to enlighten us further...

 

[thelongestroad]

AFAIK, only if authorisation has been requested from the automated phone line.

Island might be able to enlighten us further...

But after you've tried pin first and it declines, the screen where you manually type the card number in always has the authorisation code box greyed out. So even if you did ring up for a code you can't type it in.

 

[island]

AFAIK, only if authorisation has been requested from the automated phone line.

Island might be able to enlighten us further...

Yup. Any second transaction made immediately after a card declines can be reversed by the card issuer if (a) they notice it and (b) the customer has no money or doesn't pay. Ditto any transaction made on a chip card without a proper chip and PIN transaction. The bank where I work has been particularly hot on these lately.

 

[thelongestroad]

Interesting, thanks. So a bank will actively refuse to pay for a transaction that has declined on our Avantix machines that we've had to then manually type in the card number on?

Seems the onus is on the TOCs to sort it out then. With simcard holders in the Thyrons already, there really is no excuse?

 

[island]

Interesting, thanks. So a bank will actively refuse to pay for a transaction that has declined on our Avantix machines that we've had to then manually type in the card number on?

Seems the onus is on the TOCs to sort it out then. With simcard holders in the Thyrons already, there really is no excuse?

The bank will process the payment normally. Takes someone in the back office (or, I suppose, a computer routine) to notice (1) the decline (2) the subsequent transaction for the same amount, and (3) that the customer had no money. If this happens they may then raise a chargeback which takes the money back.

Some banks may not investigate transactions under a certain amount, or at all, if they consider it a bad use of staff time. On the other hand, if you manually key-enter a card for a 14-day 1st class ALR...

 

[Flamingo]

But after you've tried pin first and it declines, the screen where you manually type the card number in always has the authorisation code box greyed out. So even if you did ring up for a code you can't type it in.

I raised that with management, and was told to write the auth code on the docket signed by the passenger.

Edited to add; if one has the time, selling another ticket with a card "resets" the Avantex so when one returns to the original cardholder, the card can be swiped straight off and not "Chip and pin" which means the authorisation box is still available, and the auth code can then be entered. Sometimes this is useful.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The bank will process the payment normally. Takes someone in the back office (or, I suppose, a computer routine) to notice (1) the decline (2) the subsequent transaction for the same amount, and (3) that the customer had no money. If this happens they may then raise a chargeback which takes the money back.

Some banks may not investigate transactions under a certain amount, or at all, if they consider it a bad use of staff time. On the other hand, if you manually key-enter a card for a 14-day 1st class ALR...

They may not notice the decline if it was an offline decline.

 

[island]

That is very true! In that event the bank can sometimes rely on two potential other avenues: 1) swiped or keyed transaction on a chip card and 2) no authorization code requested from the bank for a sale over floor limit (if detected).