South West Trains prosecution

[dannn]

Hi guys

The back story:

Going from Poole to Bournemouth I was just arriving at the station as the train came so hopped on because by the time I would have got tickets from the self serve machine it would have probably had gone.

Immediately after I got onboard the train I went straight to the guard in his booth and asked to pay for a ticket, he he got his machine out but it wasn't working and wouldn't take my card as payment. He said it's fine no worries just when you get to the station explain the situation and you can simply buy a ticket there.

I got to the station and then you can guess the rest some woman took my details despite my pleas and insistence I had done nothing wrong. I was in a rush so I just gave her all my details and got on with it.

She said I'd have the right of appeal but the letter didn't come for months and I had forgotten about the whole situation untill it came, and then when I went to pay it (something like £95) said you can't pay now as it has already been moved to prosecution

On Saturday I recieved a court summons for the 5th of January which seems a bit short notice. (The date on the letter says 5th december but I recieved it on the 20th, is this normal?!) I've tried to contact SWT prosecution office to try and settle out of court since then but haven't been able to get through to them since.

I think if I fought it in court I would have a chance of winning but I really don't want to risk a criminal record and an astronomical fine.

My question is - what kind of out of court settlement are SWT likely to accept? £150-200? That's all I can afford to pay

 

[bb21]

What time was it when you travelled?

What legislation was listed on the court summons?

 

[dannn]

Time travelled 9:06

"having contravened bye law no.18 made under section 219 of the transport act by the strategic rail authority and confirmed under schedule 20 of the transport act 2000

contrary to section 46 and schedule 9 of the railways act 2005"

 

[swt_passenger]

How long ago did you actually travel?

If you'd 'forgotten about the situation' had you seen any earlier correspondence at all? What paperwork did you get at Bournemouth on the day?

 

[dannn]

This was at the end of August and i don't remember getting any paperwork at the time

 

[island]

What was the date of the alleged offence?

Edit: answers crossed my post
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When you chose to join a train without a ticket at a station which had ticketing facilities, you committed a criminal offence under section 18 of the Railway Byelaws.

Are you sure this is your first correspondence about the matter? Train Operating Companies do not normally go straight to prosecution for most ticketing issues, although if their correspondence is ignored in the hope it will all go away, a court date is a possible outcome.

At this stage it is not impossible to get out of the court appearance, fine, and potential write-up in local papers, but you will need to contact the SWT prosecutions office urgently on Monday to enquire what sum they might now accept in return for offering no evidence at court thereby resulting in the case being dropped.

 

[dannn]

My main concern is settling this with SWT before the court date

Do you think £200 would be enough?

 

[dannn]

So a week before court date is definitely still ok to pay a settlement?

 

[class303]

very harsh from SWT again, especially if you made the effort to find the guard.

Really shouldn't have left it this late though. You need to get onto SWT URGENTLY when the office opens. Say you are sorry and want to pay for the misunderstanding out of court. Good luck.

 

[Darandio]

very harsh from SWT again, especially if you made the effort to find the guard.

This is irrelevant, they boarded the train without a valid ticket despite there being an opportunity to purchase one.

 

[Class377]

I think if I fought it in court I would have a chance of winning but I really don't want to risk a criminal record and an astronomical fine.

Incorrect.

The railway byelaws are strict liability and are broken by passing an opportunity to pay (open ticket office or a ticket machine) and boarding a train. There are very few defences to this, and turning up late and not leaving enough time to buy a ticket is not one of these. If you did not have a valid ticket ready for inspection, you are guilty, end of.

Luckily, because of this, the byelaws are non-recordable and don't show up on a criminal record. However, the fine should be enough of a deterrent to ticketless travel in the future!

 

[dannn]

Luckily, because of this, the byelaws are non-recordable and don't show up on a criminal record. However, the fine should be enough of a deterrent to ticketless travel in the future!

So if I'm found guilty in court I won't have a criminal record?

Can you elaborate?

 

[bb21]

So if I'm found guilty in court I won't have a criminal record?

Can you elaborate?

That is correct. As Byelaw offences are non-recordable, you should not receive a criminal record upon conviction, although it still makes sense to try and settle the matter beforehand, because it is likely to be cheaper than the fine levied, which is likely to be £150 upwards.

I agree that I cannot see any defence against such a charge, as you quite clearly ignored an opportunity to pay your fare. Running late is not a valid excuse.

I think at this late stage, you will want to try and get in touch with SWT and sort something out over the phone if at all possible. Given that it is now the Christmas break, you really are not blessed with time.

 

[najaB]

Running late is not a valid excuse.

It might be accepted as an ameliorative factor if you were trying to get the last train of the day, but even then that's entirely dependant on the kindness of the TOCs prosecutors.

 

[bb21]

It might be accepted as an ameliorative factor if you were trying to get the last train of the day, but even then that's entirely dependant on the kindness of the TOCs prosecutors.

Yes, but not at 9 in the morning.

My main concern is settling this with SWT before the court date

Do you think £200 would be enough?

Tales on this forum tend to suggest that settlements average around £100 and slightly less for first-time offences. But considering that your case is at an advanced stage, offering a bit more is not going to be a bad idea. There is no guarantee they will accept, or that they will accept this amount if they do, but there is no harm trying.

 

[Monty]

What I would like to know is what actually happened when the RPA/RPI spoke with you? I have a hunch you were issued with a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) since you mentioned you were told you couple 'appeal' which is normally what happens after receiving a PFN. Were you given any receipt/paperwork after speaking with the inspector?

 

[dannn]

What I would like to know is what actually happened when the RPA/RPI spoke with you? I have a hunch you were issued with a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) since you mentioned you were told you couple 'appeal' which is normally what happens after receiving a PFN. Were you given any receipt/paperwork after speaking with the inspector?

My memory is vague as I was in a rush but I don't think I was given any receipt.

PS. Thanks alot for the replys people I will call them first thing monday!

 

[reb0118]

Immediately after I got on board the train I went straight to the guard in his booth and asked to pay for a ticket. He got his machine out but it wasn't working and wouldn't take my card as payment. He said it's fine no worries just when you get to the station explain the situation and you can simply buy a ticket there.

This may have been because your account does not have off line authority, or you had reached your off line limit. It would be wise to find out if this is the case prior to relying on your card for on train purchases in the future. I have found in my experience that a significant minority of passengers who are running late and bypass the booking office and/or TVM are subsequently found to be unable to use their card(s) on board. I know that certain TOCs, are beginning to, if not already, take a much more hard line approach to this. My advice, if you feel you have to bypass an opportunity to pay, is to ensure that you carry enough cash to cover the full undiscounted single fare for your intended journey.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Surely if the OP finds the guard to ask for a ticket (and therefore has intent to pay) and the guard's ticket machine doesn't work; that isn't the OP's fault.

Shouldn't the TOC exercise discretion or common sense here and use this as an opportunity to make improvements to on-board ticketing?

Couldn't the guard issue some kind of docket/permit to travel (stating station of origin, destination and fare due) which the OP presents at the ticket barrier upon arrival at his destination. If he still intends to pay, he could ask a member of barrier staff to escort him to the ticket office.

...but yes I appreciate if he doesn't intend to pay once through the barrier, the TOC loses out, but gets him next time

 

[Darandio]

Surely if the OP finds the guard to ask for a ticket (and therefore has intent to pay) and the guard's ticket machine doesn't work; that isn't the OP's fault.

As already pointed out several times, this is completely irrelevant. The guard was not the first opportunity to pay, they boarded a train without a valid ticket.

 

[cjmillsnun]

At 9 am both stations have an open ticket office and TVMs that accept cash and cards.

Having said that, at a cost of less than £10, SWT guards can swipe the card and phone for authorisation (unless this policy has changed).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This may have been because your account does not have off line authority, or you had reached your off line limit. It would be wise to find out if this is the case prior to relying on your card for on train purchases in the future. I have found in my experience that a significant minority of passengers who are running late and bypass the booking office and/or TVM are subsequently found to be unable to use their card(s) on board. I know that certain TOCs, are beginning to, if not already, take a much more hard line approach to this. My advice, if you feel you have to bypass an opportunity to pay, is to ensure that you carry enough cash to cover the full undiscounted single fare for your intended journey.

Bear in mind that if the card does not do off line authorisation, it will not work in SWT's TVMs. I know this from experience.

 

[najaB]

Bear in mind that if the card does not do off line authorisation, it will not work in SWT's TVMs. I know this from experience.

That's interesting as I assumed the TVM would have to have a network connection to be able to look up TOD details.

 

[cjmillsnun]

That's interesting as I assumed the TVM would have to have a network connection to be able to look up TOD details.

It does, but for some reason they will not process on line auth cards.

My work around is to buy the tickets from SWT on-line and collect them ToD. But I got caught out once before I found out that my card didn't work. Luckily that train had a friendly guard who sold me a ticket and rang through for card authorisation (and it was a low value fare).

 

[221129]

Bear in mind that if the card does not do off line authorisation, it will not work in SWT's TVMs. I know this from experience.

Well my offline card works....

 

[TEW]

What I would like to know is what actually happened when the RPA/RPI spoke with you? I have a hunch you were issued with a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) since you mentioned you were told you couple 'appeal' which is normally what happens after receiving a PFN. Were you given any receipt/paperwork after speaking with the inspector?

My hunch was that a Penalty Fare was issued originally. In my experience SWT RPIs will normally issue Penalty Fare for a simple failure to pay prior to boarding, and will not report passengers for prosecution. It only tends to be much more serious cases, or repeat offenders, that get reported for prosecution.

 

[455driver]

As already pointed out several times, this is completely irrelevant. The guard was not the first opportunity to pay, they boarded a train without a valid ticket.

Also the fact it could be the OPs card causing the problem and not the ticket machine!

 

[Flamingo]

Surely if the OP finds the guard to ask for a ticket (and therefore has intent to pay) and the guard's ticket machine doesn't work; that isn't the OP's fault.

Shouldn't the TOC exercise discretion or common sense here and use this as an opportunity to make improvements to on-board ticketing?

Couldn't the guard issue some kind of docket/permit to travel (stating station of origin, destination and fare due) which the OP presents at the ticket barrier upon arrival at his destination. If he still intends to pay, he could ask a member of barrier staff to escort him to the ticket office.

...but yes I appreciate if he doesn't intend to pay once through the barrier, the TOC loses out, but gets him next time

The ticket machine worked. The OP's card didn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At 9 am both stations have an open ticket office and TVMs that accept cash and cards.

Having said that, at a cost of less than £10, SWT guards can swipe the card and phone for authorisation (unless this policy has changed).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Bear in mind that if the card does not do off line authorisation, it will not work in SWT's TVMs. I know this from experience.

Phoning for authorisation if you have a signal takes at least five minutes, which on a peak-time train is a long time to spend on one passenger, especially if they have already passed an opportunity to pay. Also, in my experience an lot of the passengers who have passed an opportunity to pay have a card that is declined when authorisation is phoned for, which means another five-ten minutes doing a UFN and confirming addresses, by which point one is two or three stations down the track and the passenger has got off...

The last time I did the whole thing it took me the whole way from Bridgend to Cardiff (and the little git never paid the UFN - I'm just waiting for him to turn up on here).

 

[Diplodicus]

I used to travel Grateley-Waterloo and could stand in the queue at the only ticket machine for 10+ minutes and still not have time to purchase.
The guard never hesitated to sell me an off-peak return.
I do acknowledge the "offence" of passing the opportunity.to purchase but at busy times, (like half-term, it would require allowing an additional half hour.
Surely, finding the guard and offering to pay is usually sufficient most of the time?

 

[Darandio]

I used to travel Grateley-Waterloo and could stand in the queue at the only ticket machine for 10+ minutes and still not have time to purchase.
The guard never hesitated to sell me an off-peak return.
I do acknowledge the "offence" of passing the opportunity.to purchase but at busy times, (like half-term, it would require allowing an additional half hour.
Surely, finding the guard and offering to pay is usually sufficient most of the time?

But again, irrelevant in this case. There is no mention of any queue, just that the OP decided to bypass the machine due to either being late or through poor planning.

Some may agree in the case you describe, but that isn't the case here.

 

[dannn]

Can anyone confirm if this will definitely not show on a CRB check?

Did a google search and some are saying it will and some saying it won't

Thanks