What is Going To Happen To The HSTs?

[Haydn1971]

How expensive is a 2+5 HST compared to say a 4 car 158 to run and in terms of track access ?

 

[455driver]

Does conversion of the Mk 3 to power-door operation also allow for SDO?

It can be fitted very easily especially if the doors remain Guard operated.

 

[northwichcat]

How expensive is a 2+5 HST compared to say a 4 car 158 to run and in terms of track access ?

Track access:

A 47/4 costs 59.36p per passenger mile
A 47/7 costs 57.72p per passenger mile

A 158 carriage costs 6.02p per passenger mile

So if you're running a short formation at no more than 90mph, the 158s are substantially more cost-effective.

On the other hand the faster heavier DMUs have higher track access charges

A 175 carriage costs 11.83p per passenger mile
A 180 carriage costs 14.03p per passenger mile
A 185 carriage costs 11.35p per passenger mile

So a HST in lieu of a 180 or a 6 car 175/185 formation is a more viable prospect.

Incidentally looking at the track access charges I can see why XC have disabled the tilt on their 221s - it saves them 3.7p per carriage per passenger mile.

 

[Envoy]

Track access:

A 47/4 costs 59.36p per passenger mile
A 47/7 costs 57.72p per passenger mile

A 158 carriage costs 6.02p per passenger mile

So if you're running a short formation at no more than 90mph, the 158s are substantially more cost-effective.

On the other hand the faster heavier DMUs have higher track access charges

A 175 carriage costs 11.83p per passenger mile
A 180 carriage costs 14.03p per passenger mile
A 185 carriage costs 11.35p per passenger mile

So a HST in lieu of a 180 or a 6 car 175/185 formation is a more viable prospect.

Incidentally looking at the track access charges I can see why XC have disabled the tilt on their 221s - it saves them 3.7p per carriage per passenger mile.

Is this simply to do with the weight of the vehicle(s)? Would lighter weight electric trains be significantly cheaper?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Track access:

A 47/4 costs 59.36p per passenger mile
A 47/7 costs 57.72p per passenger mile

A 158 carriage costs 6.02p per passenger mile

So if you're running a short formation at no more than 90mph, the 158s are substantially more cost-effective.

On the other hand the faster heavier DMUs have higher track access charges

A 175 carriage costs 11.83p per passenger mile
A 180 carriage costs 14.03p per passenger mile
A 185 carriage costs 11.35p per passenger mile

So a HST in lieu of a 180 or a 6 car 175/185 formation is a more viable prospect.

Incidentally looking at the track access charges I can see why XC have disabled the tilt on their 221s - it saves them 3.7p per carriage per passenger mile.

How much is a pair of 43s compared to a 47/7?

EDIT: found it.

a class 43/0 costs 37.35 pence per vehicle mile. NONE of the prices are per passenger mile otherwise a full coach would cost more than an empty one (they don't)

Coaches cost 11.56 pence per vehicle mile.

So a 2+5 costs 132.5 pence per mile.

 

[TheWalrus]

And what about leasing costs and fuel?

 

[najaB]

How much is a pair of 43s compared to a 47/7?

If I'm reading the track access charges correctly (I'm probably not), then a pair of 43's and 5 coaches will cost 132.5p per vehicle mile.

 

[DT611]

The powercars have been re-engined in the not too distant past, and Abellio are (I believe) proposing a complete rebuild of the coaches. So they are old, but not what I'd describe as clapped out.

ah but don't you know, they are nearly 40 years old, so therefore automatically clapped out, even if in good condition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the Chiltern MK3 still have the original out of the ark seating

the original mark 3 seating? nothing wrong with it.

in other words a clapped out old coach with power doors whoopee doo!

again, being old doesn't make something "clapped out"

As for ATW well I suggested that might happen but that doesn't mean I am in favour of it personally.

why not? they would free up units down there for other uses including lengthening and removing pacers (which are nearly at the end of their life) . to buy new diesel units seems to be a bit problematic, so using what we have including the HST is a good idea until they are structurely unsound.

Don't get me wrong the HST is great train but everything has its day.

yes, but the HST stock isn't life expired yet as a whole. individual vehicles might be fit for the chop, but using those which are in good condition until they are structurely life expired to help with a shortage of rolling stock is a good idea and worth considering.

 

[al.currie93]

I think with the national DMU shortage and many HSTs being released in the next few years, many could be used as 2+5 sets to increase capacity on peak-time services. Could they be used on Cardiff-Portsmouth/Taunton, Reading-Gatwick and possibly Liverpool-Norwich? One toilet could be removed from each carriage and convert the Guard's office and buffet car to seating capacity. This should bring the passenger capacity to nearly 500.

Reading to Gatwick please :P

 

[tadhatter]

Despite what some have suggested on here there clearly is some realistic scope for HST usage in the medium term.

Personally I'd like to see more sets on cross country routes as they're always over crowded and, as HSTs already use that route we know (as opposed to many people wildly speculating) that they are suitable for the route in terms of platform length etc.

So the longer ne/sw routes could be operated by HSTs and maybe the voyagers could take over some of the 170 duties.

 

[Envoy]

Despite what some have suggested on here there clearly is some realistic scope for HST usage in the medium term.

Personally I'd like to see more sets on cross country routes as they're always over crowded and, as HSTs already use that route we know (as opposed to many people wildly speculating) that they are suitable for the route in terms of platform length etc.

So the longer ne/sw routes could be operated by HSTs and maybe the voyagers could take over some of the 170 duties.

That it was I would also like to see - especially having had to endure a packed 2 coach 170 on the Cardiff to Nottingham run. If the HST's could be a short term solution to overcrowding on Cross Country until the Meridians are released following electrification.

 

[jopsuk]

On the financialmside, presumably there are efficiencies to be found in fleet size? XC's fleet doesn't seem to be renowned for reliability, neither does GC's. Scotrail are taking on 27- 54 power cars.

I'd suggest that viablenplans really should require 10-12 as a minimum. Sadly "XC take on more, allowing cardiff to Nottingham to go Voyager, more 170s on Birmingham- Stansted and generally longer trains all round" seems an unlikely outcome.

For Wales, which routes and how many sets?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

On the financialmside, presumably there are efficiencies to be found in fleet size? XC's fleet doesn't seem to be renowned for reliability, neither does GC's.

Do either of them normally have many spare units/locos (of any class they operate) that can be swapped out for service stock for routine maintenance?

 

[jopsuk]

Pretty sure al fleets include in theory at least once spare. Which is why tiny fleets are inefficient. Having one spare out of 27 is less than 4% of your fleet sat on depot at any one time, having one out of four is 25% of your fleet in the depot.

 

[Murph]

Pretty sure al fleets include in theory at least once spare. Which is why tiny fleets are inefficient. Having one spare out of 27 is less than 4% of your fleet sat on depot at any one time, having one out of four is 25% of your fleet in the depot.

With shorter HST formations and the resulting spare trailers, there's probably scope for a ROSCO to do a deal involving a higher number of spare trailers for roughly the same price, but an agreement that no more than xx% of the trailers are in service at any time. That would be a way to help guarantee a minimum level of fleet availability, as well as probably pushing maintenance costs down by taking some of the pressure for quick turnaround out of the picture. It's a win for the TOC, as the chances of them having usable sets should be significantly higher, and a win for the ROSCOs by making it easier for them to meet availability guarantees and having their stock out there earning. Individual vehicles having a failure which requires more time to solve hopefully becomes much less of a problem.

There's less scope for having spare 43s, but the recent deep refurbs of them means they should hopefully be fairly reliable.

 

[northwichcat]

How much is a pair of 43s compared to a 47/7?

EDIT: found it.

a class 43/0 costs 37.35 pence per vehicle mile. NONE of the prices are per passenger mile otherwise a full coach would cost more than an empty one (they don't)

Coaches cost 11.56 pence per vehicle mile.

So a 2+5 costs 132.5 pence per mile.

Of course a HST loco is a 43 not a 47 and yes the track access charges are per mile and include ECS movements. I was trying to work out what the ATW subsidy was per passenger mile for another thread at the same time and started using the wrong terminology in this thread.

 

[najaB]

So a 2+5 costs 132.5 pence per mile.

Glad to see your figure matches mine, it means I'm not on the wrong track!

 

[dgl]

New top gear challenge, can you put tyres and steering on a hst and use it as a road vehicle

 

[Murph]

New top gear challenge, can you put tyres and steering on a hst and use it as a road vehicle

I think it might be better to get them to start with the Pacers. Hours of fun could be generated as they steadily work their way through the fleet converting them into buses, boats, space shuttles, etc.

James probably wouldn't be too keen on them being nasty to HSTs. He's at least a little bit of a train enthusiast, if you remember his show doing a branch line with miles of Hornby OO-gauge.

 

[edwin_m]

On the financialmside, presumably there are efficiencies to be found in fleet size? XC's fleet doesn't seem to be renowned for reliability, neither does GC's. Scotrail are taking on 27- 54 power cars.

I'd suggest that viablenplans really should require 10-12 as a minimum. Sadly "XC take on more, allowing cardiff to Nottingham to go Voyager, more 170s on Birmingham- Stansted and generally longer trains all round" seems an unlikely outcome.

For Wales, which routes and how many sets?

I think the XC power cars are technically identical to the East Coast ones and also maintained at Craigentinny, and occasionally they appear on each other's services so they are effectively part of a larger fleet.

 

[Tracked]

I think it might be better to get them to start with the Pacers. Hours of fun could be generated as they steadily work their way through the fleet converting them into buses, boats, space shuttles, etc.

Pacers wouldn't be safe for use on the road? Did you see them (editn top gear) playing conkers with caravans though?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pacers wouldn't be safe for use on the road? Did you see them playing conkers with caravans though?

Really? It's their natural home...

 

[Tracked]

Really? It's their natural home...

being used in a giant conker match? I agree ...

 

[edwin_m]

Pacers wouldn't be safe for use on the road?

In common with nearly everything else Top Gear puts on the public highway.










Especially Clarkson.

 

[badger1badger]

Why not put HST sets on the settle & Carlisle line - perfect

 

[Mark62]

I was talking to the steward on the 11.54 HST XC service south from Sheffield last week and he said that XC were getting 12-15 HST from the FGW cascade. He said the sooner the better.

 

[jopsuk]

No offence to the member of staff, but that's not what I'd call a reliable source! He may be right, but I'll remain sceptical until there's an announcement from the TOC or ROSCO

 

[badger1badger]

I was talking to the steward on the 11.54 HST XC service south from Sheffield last week and he said that XC were getting 12-15 HST from the FGW cascade. He said the sooner the better.

Great news I would use xc more if that was the case those dreadful voyagers with the constant rumble of engine noise ! Not good :cry:

 

[cjmillsnun]

I was talking to the steward on the 11.54 HST XC service south from Sheffield last week and he said that XC were getting 12-15 HST from the FGW cascade. He said the sooner the better.

XC are loss making as it is. A 4 car voyager costs less per mile in track access charges than a 2+5 HST, and an 8 car voyager costs less than a 2+7 or 2+8.

(2+8 HST 167.18 ppm, 8 car class 220 Voyager 87.04 ppm)

I really doubt this is going to happen, as much as we would like it to.

 

[47802]

I was talking to the steward on the 11.54 HST XC service south from Sheffield last week and he said that XC were getting 12-15 HST from the FGW cascade. He said the sooner the better.

If 20 are retained for the west country plus the 27 for Scotland then there isn't enough spare to do that not from FGW anyway.

XC in the next franchise should be looking for replacements anyway really.

S&C what a surprise that somebody has suggested that, I don't see much reason to work the S&C, low line speed, existing trains are either 2,3 or 4 carriages and most of the stations can only accommodate a max of 4 carriages.

I see its now been suggested that Scottish services are now likely 5/6 carriages instead of 4/5 as originally suggested.